Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[houtdffan]

Alap can be a very valuable dom, just as he was on stage 9 in launching Remco.

That is how he is best used in the tour. Give it 1-3km of his best

 

[IndianCyclist]

Fortunately the breaking point of Pog is now known after the TDF 2022. All Remco and his team have to do is to go to the same cols and practice what Pog/Ving did in the TDF and see if he can also do the same accelerations. if not then whether he can diesel the average pace from start of the attack to the top in the same time. other reference points of Pog/Rog/Ving are also available. it takes time to practice what is not happening naturally. So in 2 years time he should be ready for an assault on the TDF. Also the pacing strategy should be decided much earlier and not be a spur of the moment in the race.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Ah, so you agree with "if they can fit him in" after all.

No, where in the world did you read that? God, its close to impossible to have an actual conversation with you sometimes.

 

[Big Doopie]

I'd rewatch 1997 or even 1994. Indurain had a massive mountain attack on Hautacam, while Ullrich crushed Arcalis and the MTT. They won their tours in the mountains those years

you keep using examples from an era when riders performed in "ways that were not normal".

i do not blame you for that since there is a 20-year gap where it is hard to use examples. but many of these comparisons, unfortunately, are meaningless.

 

[Big Doopie]

...I think Pog is a bit like Van der Poel in a way. A near endless reserve of short accelerations due to a superior in -race recovery, but there is a breaking point when the pace is set too high for too long. If you look at the w/kg Pog is pushing on the big climbs, they are not better than the numbers of Vingegaard or Evenepoel. There's a difference between accelerating out of the wheel of McNulty or Gesink, and accelerating out of the wheel of a rival who is pushing your max numbers already.

excellent point.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No, I lined up factual reasons as to why leaving Alaphilippe at home is not happening. But call it what you want!

Thanks.

Him having done great things in the TDF... i assume you're talking about 2019. Sure, he won 2 stages since, but so have so many other riders. I don't think in 2020 and 2021 he was the big star at the TDF. So how long until this argument no longer applies? 2023 will be the 4th edition of the TDF since then.

So while it is true, as to your original point, that he is a big French star, and has done great things in the TDF in the past, i think that if you really want to go all out to win the TDF with Evenepoel and want to build a team around him, that you don't put Alaphilippe as first man on the sheet without thinking it through and putting down some ground rules first. Again, hence "if they can fit him in". It's like you deliberately keep missing the point. I think we are past the point where Alaphilippe gets what Alaphilippe wants. Not only has he shown too little for that in the past seasons, there is simply a bigger and better star at the team right now.

So no, not trolling, simply pointing out facts.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Going into the Tour as, right now, the 3rd biggest favorite on paper and having 7 fully devoted domestiques without freedom have always, always, always been a terrible idea. If Remco blows them out of the water in the first week, you tell Julian that theres no room for games anymore or gtfo. If not, you let him do a bit of his own stuff (which also can benefit Remco, like Wout this year).

As always in Tour de France, and any Grand Tour, it comes down to your legs.

 

[Big Doopie]

Going into the Tour as, right now, the 3rd biggest favorite on paper and having 7 fully devoted domestiques without freedom have always, always, always been a terrible idea. If Remco blows them out of the water in the first week, you tell Julian that theres no room for games anymore or gtfo. If not, you let him do a bit of his own stuff (which also can benefit Remco, like Wout this year).

As always in Tour de France, and any Grand Tour, it comes down to your legs.

this all becomes moot when the giro puts in 200 kms of ITT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Going into the Tour as, right now, the 3rd biggest favorite on paper and having 7 fully devoted domestiques without freedom have always, always, always been a terrible idea. If Remco blows them out of the water in the first week, you tell Julian that theres no room for games anymore or gtfo. If not, you let him do a bit of his own stuff (which also can benefit Remco, like Wout this year).

As always in Tour de France, and any Grand Tour, it comes down to your legs.

Which is nothing i have debated at all. I have already said that it might not be the best idea just because of the attention and pressure it brings for/on one rider. But even Van Aert, a much bigger star at the past 3 TDF's, has had to do his share of the work and fulfill his job as a domestique. So Alaphilippe has to get with the program before you put him in the team, if this is what is needed.

 

[Berniece]

this all becomes moot when the giro puts in 200 kms of ITT.

Even if the Tour has more ITT kms, I still think he'll go to the Giro. They don't have the team for the TDF next year, and you'll just get Remco in a position where he won't win, but the whole nation still expects him too.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Which is nothing i have debated at all. I have already said that it might not be the best idea just because of the attention and pressure it brings for/on one rider. But even Van Aert, a much bigger star at the past 3 TDF's, has had to do his share of the work and fulfill his job as a domestique. So Alaphilippe has to get with the program before you put him in the team, if this is what is needed.

You seem to forget that Roglic was the overwhelming favorite in 2020, while it was 50/50 in 2021 between him and Pog. Thats a very different case to Remco going up against Vingegaard and Pogacar.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Finding a super strong dom who is still there during moneytime and strong enough to drag Evenepoel to Pog/Vinge... then you are talking about a rider who would be able to win the TDF himself. No idea who this dom would have to be, or where QS would find him, let alone how they'd pay for him.

I think Pog is a bit like Van der Poel in a way. A near endless reserve of short accelerations due to a superior in -race recovery, but there is a breaking point when the pace is set too high for too long. If you look at the w/kg Pog is pushing on the big climbs, they are not better than the numbers of Vingegaard or Evenepoel. There's a difference between accelerating out of the wheel of McNulty or Gesink, and accelerating out of the wheel of a rival who is pushing your max numbers already.

I meant more a superdom, who's able to set the pace for long enough to limit the duration of Remco isolation (and tempo setting) vs those two. I'm not saying that strong and even tempo is bad for Evenepoel in general (it's good when he has to bridge a gap when Pog or Vingo attack), just pointing out that, assuming similar AnT VAM, Evenepoel will tire himself quicker than Pog and Vinge holding his wheel on 7-8% climbs. Strong, even tempo is good if the other guys agree to cooperate as well or you are stronger than them and can cook them on the wheel or at least disable attacks.

I get your point regarding Pog on the longest climbs but when I think about it for a while I am not so sure i.e. I haven't seen anyone in the last decade at a GT who was climbing at 1750-1800 m/h for large majority of an hour (except a few minutes of descent break) like Pog did at Le Grand Bornand stage.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You seem to forget that Roglic was the overwhelming favorite in 2020, while it was 50/50 in 2021 between him and Pog. Thats a very different case to Remco going up against Vingegaard and Pogacar.

And in 2022 Pogacar was the overwhelming favorite (near impossible to beat) and still Van Aert saved Vingegaard's bacon on the cobbles among occasions with nothing close to a guarantee that it would pay off in the long run. If the team thinks they have a shot with Evenepoel, they need to put a squad together that best supports their chances. If they think that is a full team in support of Evenepoel, then Alaphilippe and his ambitions and his ego take a backseat. Which doesn't mean he won't get opportunities, just that he won't be able to do as he pleases all the time.

 

[Ulle97]

Even though Remco has done extremely well in the Vuelta, I still feel he needs certain types of mountain stages plus ITTs to win the Tour next year.

He needs 2 ITTs in the route.
He would also need MTFs such as Cauterets, Le Deux Alpes, Tignes, Ax-3 Domaines.
I think he'll struggle with Pog and Vingegaard on harder climbs such as Loze, Plateau de Beille, Portet etc.

Looking forward to seeing all the different routes for the GTs.
Usually the Tour is announced in October!!!

 

[Valv.Piti]

And in 2022 Pogacar was the overwhelming favorite (near impossible to beat) and still Van Aert saved Vingegaard's bacon on the cobbles among occasions with nothing close to a guarantee that it would pay off in the long run. If the team thinks they have a shot with Evenepoel, they need to put a squad together that best supports their chances. If they think that is a full team in support of Evenepoel, then Alaphilippe and his ambitions and his ego take a backseat.

Van Aert had already basically given up at that point after he crashed (I assumed you watched the stage...?). But yes, of course he did, because he was not only a stage hunter, and he was not only a domestique. Thats my entire point, like what.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Van Aert had already basically given up at that point after he crashed (I assumed you watched the stage...?). But yes, of course he did, because he was not only a stage hunter, and he was not only a domestique. Thats my entire point, like what.

So you chose to interpret "if they can fit him in" in the most one-dimensional way possible? Well, i guess you could go one step further and start debating whether the teambus needed to be expanded in order to "fit him in", but that would really have been stupid.

 

[Wvv]

If he can get rid of the Vuelta fatigue in his legs, Remco ties Ganna as the top favourite for the TT at the Worlds, me thinks. Those little hills should be in his favour, and I don't think his shape will decline that fast. He's also not the kind of guy to suffer from decompression a lot, considering his ambitious personality. Pogacar on a super day might be a threat too.

 

[IndianCyclist]

leadership of QST in order of priority
cobbles - Asgreen, Lampaert
Hills - Ala, Remco
TDF - Jakobsen, Ala-2023, Remco,Ala -2024
Giro - Remco-2023, Merlier -2024
Vuelta - Merlier -2023, Merlier -2024
After 2023 Jakobsen leaves. I donot think his salary is high enough to stay

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If he can get rid of the Vuelta fatigue in his legs, Remco ties Ganna as the top favourite for the TT at the Worlds, me thinks. Those little hills should be in his favour, and I don't think his shape will decline that fast. He's also not the kind of guy to suffer from decompression a lot, considering his ambitious personality. Pogacar on a super day might be a threat too.

When Roglic did the WCC ITT 3 years ago, he got clobbered by Dennis, Evenepoel, Ganna... He didn't even make the top 10 in Harrogate. Evenepoel decided in 2021 at the last moment to do Chrono des Nations at the end of the season. He finished 5th behind Küng, Madsen, De Marchi and Gate.

I think doing a top level TT at the end of the season when not 100% fresh is not so obvious.

 

[Valv.Piti]

So you chose to interpret "if they can fit him in" in the most one-dimensional way possible? Well, i guess you could go one step further and start debating whether the teambus needed to be expanded in order to "fit him in", but that would really have been stupid.

I don't understand whats even your point anymore. In case you misunderstood mine:

Alaphilippe is, unfortunately for you, not a donkey. He will get his freedom as he deserves. Then stuff in the race might happen, and he might have to devote himself 100%, or he will get free hands if Remco should crash, abandon or don't have the best legs. But talking about "if they can fit him" is stupid, because obviously they are fitting him.

 

[Big Doopie]

If he can get rid of the Vuelta fatigue in his legs, Remco ties Ganna as the top favourite for the TT at the Worlds, me thinks. Those little hills should be in his favour, and I don't think his shape will decline that fast. He's also not the kind of guy to suffer from decompression a lot, considering his ambitious personality. Pogacar on a super day might be a threat too.

remco with stage 10 vuelta form could compete with ganna.

not so sure coming out of the vuelta and the crash.

last year, he was bad at Olympics but then was really good for a few weeks in Italy and Belgium in one-day races.

he then completely fell off the map at lombardy and Nations ITT.

different rider now perhaps, but i would not be surprised if he also underperforms at WCs.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't understand whats even your point anymore.

That's been quite clear. Yet i think it was obvious from the first post after your outlash.
Not worth the time.

 

[Red Rick]

remco with stage 10 vuelta form could compete with ganna.

not so sure coming out of the vuelta and the crash.

last year, he was bad at Olympics but then was really good for a few weeks in Italy and Belgium in one-day races.

he then completely fell off the map at lombardy and Nations ITT.

different rider now perhaps, but i would not be surprised if he also underperforms at WCs.

Performing optimally at both the TT and the road race is extremely hard in the first place. But I suppose that it should help him that the TT is stupid short.

 

[Valv.Piti]

That's been quite clear. Yet i think it was obvious from the first post after your outlash.
Not worth the time.

You're quite obnoxious, thats what you are.

Will be very interesting to see if Patrick Lefevre can fit Alaphilippe. I wonder who he will have to give up of Serry, Devenyns and Masnada - a very hard choice indeed.

Please man. What a ridiconlus take.

 

[Bonimenier]

Performing optimally at both the TT and the road race is extremely hard in the first place. But I suppose that it should help him that the TT is stupid short.

I don't see how that helps him. The longer, the better for him.