Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Volderke]

Tactically, yes.

I guess that's bike racing, no? Tactics and that kind of stuff?
You don't like Remco showing that, once he has a gap, he can hold it, but you also don't like Remco to just make that gap?

So in your world, Remco shouldn't have attacked, because:

1. Favourites were in position but didn't dare to move, e.g. Alaphilippe was in a good position to follow the move, but you know, he just sent his lieutenants up the road and wasn't mentally prepared that one of the favourites dared to follow that move. Solution: Remco just shouldn't have attacked to solve this problem.
2. Favourites were out of position, e.g. Pogacar was way out of position, so Remco shouldn't attack with Pogacar in the middle of the peloton on that climb. That's not very gentleman. Ofcourse we won't talk about why Pogacar wasn't in position, but anyway, here is the solution: Remco should have dropped back, apologize, inform Pogacar about his attack in the next lap, offer him to follow his wheel and thus serve Tobydawq his phantasy cycling dream of how a race should he ridden and won in the only correct way possible.
3. Favourites struggled on the climb, e.g. Girmay had difficulties holding wheels when the group stretched after Remco followed that move. Solution: Remco should only attack on the descents and flat, but only when all of the above conditions (favourites informed and in position) are met.

Again, attacking and catching your competition off-guard is part of racing. It's the way AVV won the worlds, and it's the way 1 out of 2 sprints in a small group are won (by correct timing, positioning, catching your opponent off-guard when you start your sprint,... but I never hear someone saying that's not deserved). And if you look at how Remco finished off his competition in that front group: he had a big sign on his back that said "I am going to attack, multiplle times so you get more than one chance, so follow my wheel" and he still rode away like they were juniors. Lutsenko had a great day and obviously hoped that Remco would take him over the climb into the last lap, but the moment he started softpedalling, Remco decided to ditch him sooner. Ofcourse, in the peloton, there were more riders who could have done a great ride and Remco can't destroy them all the way he did with Lutsenko, but what did those riders actually show in the race that proves they had it in them? The only 2 riders showing more than a glimmer of strenght were Madouas on the 3rd last climb, and WvA on the penultimate climb. Remco would have done the exact same thing with a guy like Madouas.

Just imagine Remco NOT in that front group, but e.g. one of your so-called other favourites (Cosnefroy, Almeida, Pogacar, etc.). Imagine the peloton behind, with Remco in there. Name 1 rider who could have bridged alone, or who would at least have created splits, havoc, chaos and attacks in that peloton on his own, in order to chase that front group. You know there is only one rider who showed, in this race, he could pull that off.

You would have a much stronger argument if you had e.g. Pogacar going all out chasing Remco after Remco enjoyed an armchair ride until the last lap thanks to some lesser gods in that breakaway, with a heroic Pogacar coming short 10-30 seconds at the finish. That didn't happen: there were no heroic efforts in the chase (yes they had WvA in their wheel, but they didn't even try), and Remco went solo very early to remove any doubts, except maybe for those that always doubt.

 

[tobydawq]

I guess that's bike racing, no? Tactics and that kind of stuff?
You don't like Remco showing that, once he has a gap, he can hold it, but you also don't like Remco to just make that gap?

So in your world, Remco shouldn't have attacked, because:

1. Favourites were in position but didn't dare to move, e.g. Alaphilippe was in a good position to follow the move, but you know, he just sent his lieutenants up the road and wasn't mentally prepared that one of the favourites dared to follow that move. Solution: Remco just shouldn't have attacked to solve this problem.
2. Favourites were out of position, e.g. Pogacar was way out of position, so Remco shouldn't attack with Pogacar in the middle of the peloton on that climb. That's not very gentleman. Ofcourse we won't talk about why Pogacar wasn't in position, but anyway, here is the solution: Remco should have dropped back, apologize, inform Pogacar about his attack in the next lap, offer him to follow his wheel and thus serve Tobydawq his phantasy cycling dream of how a race should he ridden and won in the only correct way possible.
3. Favourites struggled on the climb, e.g. Girmay had difficulties holding wheels when the group stretched after Remco followed that move. Solution: Remco should only attack on the descents and flat, but only when all of the above conditions (favourites informed and in position) are met.

Again, attacking and catching your competition off-guard is part of racing. It's the way AVV won the worlds, and it's the way 1 out of 2 sprints in a small group are won (by correct timing, positioning, catching your opponent off-guard when you start your sprint,... but I never hear someone saying that's not deserved). And if you look at how Remco finished off his competition in that front group: he had a big sign on his back that said "I am going to attack, multiplle times so you get more than one chance, so follow my wheel" and he still rode away like they were juniors. Lutsenko had a great day and obviously hoped that Remco would take him over the climb into the last lap, but the moment he started softpedalling, Remco decided to ditch him sooner. Ofcourse, in the peloton, there were more riders who could have done a great ride and Remco can't destroy them all the way he did with Lutsenko, but what did those riders actually show in the race that proves they had it in them? The only 2 riders showing more than a glimmer of strenght were Madouas on the 3rd last climb, and WvA on the penultimate climb. Remco would have done the exact same thing with a guy like Madouas.

Just imagine Remco NOT in that front group, but e.g. one of your so-called other favourites (Cosnefroy, Almeida, Pogacar, etc.). Imagine the peloton behind, with Remco in there. Name 1 rider who could have bridged alone, or who would at least have created splits, havoc, chaos and attacks in that peloton on his own, in order to chase that front group. You know there is only one rider who showed, in this race, he could pull that off.

You would have a much stronger argument if you had e.g. Pogacar going all out chasing Remco after Remco enjoyed an armchair ride until the last lap thanks to some lesser gods in that breakaway, with a heroic Pogacar coming short 10-30 seconds at the finish. That didn't happen: there were no heroic efforts in the chase (yes they had WvA in their wheel, but they didn't even try), and Remco went solo very early to remove any doubts, except maybe for those that always doubt.

I have no problem with Remco attacking. Of course he should do that when nobody can ever catch him.

It just isn't particularly interesting to watch. And then I do get a little exasperated that the best riders never try to follow him, especially when he went away as softly as he did yesterday.

 

[Volderke]

I have no problem with Remco attacking. Of course he should do that when nobody can ever catch him.

It just isn't particularly interesting to watch. And then I do get a little exasperated that the best riders never try to follow him, especially when he went away as softly as he did yesterday.

Ofcourse I'm biased in being happy to see Remco win, but I agree that this race had more potential on the exciting-scale.
But that's not Remco's fault ofcourse. I feel the French, especially Voeckler, were praising Remco too much after the finish, instead of reflecting on what they could have done better.
The absence of MvdP, and the general underwhelming performance of Pogacar were, imho, big factors in chase not ever getting on the rails.
And the moment Senechal was driving that front group, I couldn't ignore thinking he is a team mate of Evenepoel...

 

[Berflamand]

I was just wondering, has it ever happened that Remco couldn't finish off a solo once he started one (gets a gap of about 10 seconds solo)?

Out of the top of my head I can only remember his 100km+ solo effort in the Tour of Germany a few years back.

 

[tobydawq]

I was just wondering, has it ever happened that Remco couldn't finish off a solo once he started one (gets a gap of about 10 seconds solo)?

Out of the top of my head I can only remember his 100km+ solo effort in the Tour of Germany a few years back.

He tried in the GP de Montréal (or Québec) that year. I'm not sure if the gap got that big, though.

 

[Didinho]

If he doesn't do Ardennes + Tour + Worlds next year I will be extremely disappointing, although the Giro will be a much more interesting race if he participates, but I have kinda given up hope with this Vegni-guy.

After the Vuelta Lefevre said that he's a year ahead of schedule. Why not send him a year early to the Tour? I was also saying to do the Giro first, but after his first GT win and now wearing the rainbow jersey I think they might change their plans and do Ardennes + Tour + Worlds next year.

 

[KZD]

After the Vuelta Lefevre said that he's a year ahead of schedule. Why not send him a year early to the Tour? I was also saying to do the Giro first, but after his first GT win and now wearing the rainbow jersey I think they might change their plans and do Ardennes + Tour + Worlds next year.

Yes and then finishing the season with a return to Il Lombardia

In 2024, he could go to the Giro followed by the Olympics and Worlds (Benelux Tour and some classics in between).

I am also hoping that he tries MSR in one of these years though I realise that will be a harder race to win.

 

[spalco]

What a win, what a season, holy ***. Almost scary what Remco could possibly achieve in coming seasons. Just awesome.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't see the point of going to the Giro unless you're very aversive to losing at the Tour. The Giro just does not fit that well into the rest of the season unless you want to do Giro/Vuelta which he likely wouldn't do. The only upside is he can actually be really good in Liege before the Giro based on CSS this year, but you don't know how much time he needs to build up his form over the spring. Especially with the WC being the week after the Tour

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Jan Bakelants over Remco Evenepoel en de Tour: "Verlies geen tijd: de Giro is een troostprijs"

Vuelta: check. WK: check. Tour: vraagteken. De komende weken en maanden zullen Remco Evenepoel en de Ronde van Frankrijk nog veelvuldig aan elkaar gelinkt worden. Jan Bakelants twijfelt geen seconde: "Voor mij is 2023 een uitgelezen kans met de Grand Départ in het Baskenland."

sporza.be

Bakelants is right IMO, the Giro has become a relatively minor "consolation price" (as he puts it) - no point in targeting that race at this point of Evenepoel's career, as he's obviously more than ready to go for the big one. That the window in which Remco could win the Tour is perhaps shorter than people think.

He needs to grab every chance he can get to win the Tour de France, also considering that Pogacar and Vingegaard are likely intrinsically better climbers than him (according to Bakelants)

Thinks the start in the Basque Country should suit Evenepoel. Seems to be implying that Remco could take time in medium mountain stages that are similar to the Donostia route.

... that future Tour routes could actually suit him less. (I would not be surprised if that turned out to be the case - the rumors point to a rather medium mountain heavy route )

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Of course he is strong. I would just like to see him ride against the best for once (not a critique of him, obviously).

This makes no sense. Basically you are waiting for a race dynamic that's not in his favor, where he then drops Pogacar/Van der Poel/... As i already explained, he is so strong most of the time that the others are the ones dodging a direct fight when he goes from far. That's his strength. That's like asking Alaphilippe to not wait for Mur de Huy and show that he is stronger than his rivals on the long flat section that preceeds it.

He has now done 4 races of over 250 km. The 2019 and 2021 WCC where he was riding as a domestique. And Liège and the 2022 WCC. He is basically 100% for 250+k races. One monument and one WCC... But you still want to see him beat the best. Lol.

Maybe we should start wondering how much these "best" would have won had they faced Evenepoel without the crash over 2020 and 2021, instead of asking how much Evenepoel would win in case the best took him head-on. No, that would be petty.

Pogacar was tired from the Tour when Evenepoel crushed the peloton in San Sebastian. Pogacar was prepping for the Vuelta when Evenepoel made a fool of everyone in 2019 San Sebastian. Yet Evenepoel was also prepping for the Vuelta in San Sebastian and Evenepoel was also tired from the Vuelta when Evenepoel won the WCC with the biggest margin since 1968. But too bad we never see him beat the best. FFS.

 

[tobydawq]

This makes no sense. Basically you are waiting for a race dynamic that's not in his favor, where he then drops Pogacar/Van der Poel/... As i already explained, he is so strong most of the time that the others are the ones dodging a direct fight when he goes from far. That's his strength. That's like asking Alaphilippe to not wait for Mur de Huy and show that he is stronger than his rivals on the long flat section that preceeds it.

He has now done 4 races of over 250 km. The 2019 and 2021 WCC where he was riding as a domestique. And Liège and the 2022 WCC. He is basically 100% for 250+k races. One monument and one WCC... But you still want to see him beat the best. Lol.

Maybe we should start wondering how much these "best" would have won had they faced Evenepoel without the crash over 2020 and 2021, instead of asking how much Evenepoel would win in case the best took him head-on. No, that would be petty.

Pogacar was tired from the Tour when Evenepoel crushed the peloton in San Sebastian. Pogacar was prepping for the Vuelta when Evenepoel made a fool of everyone in 2019 San Sebastian. Yet Evenepoel was also prepping for the Vuelta in San Sebastian and Evenepoel was also tired from the Vuelta when Evenepoel won the WCC with the biggest margin since 1968. But too bad we never see him beat the best. FFS.

Oh, come on, you know what I mean, and you know that I know what you mean.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574057877509386240

View: https://twitter.com/chrishophoto/status/1574057877509386240

Oh, come on, you know what I mean, and you know that I know what you mean.

There will always be a reason to question any win of any rider. He beats Roglic at his own turf in the Vuelta, but Roglic was injured from the Tour. He finished 2m30s ahead of Pogacar in the WCC, but the latter had a brainfart when Evenepoel went. Vingegaard beat Pogacar but only because Pogacar was "tricked" into thinking Roglic was still relevant. Pogacar won Lombardia by outsprinting Masnada, but i'd like to see him try that sprint against Van der Poel, yeah, wouldn't be so easy then, would it! It's all BS. It has to be enough. We're not talking about Geoghegan Hart or Pereiro Sio here.

He fights his battles to the best of his abilities, and that means going into the offensive earlier than his rivals. That's his way of competing against world class riders who have different skills. He doesn't have their skills, he can't afford to wait. But none of them have his skills either. So this is a logical result.

 

[tobydawq]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574057877509386240

View: https://twitter.com/chrishophoto/status/1574057877509386240



There will always be a reason to question any win of any rider. He beats Roglic at his own turf in the Vuelta, but Roglic was injured from the Tour. He finished 2m30s ahead of Pogacar in the WCC, but the latter had a brainfart when Evenepoel went. Vingegaard beat Pogacar but only because Pogacar was "tricked" into thinking Roglic was still relevant. Pogacar won Lombardia by outsprinting Masnada, but i'd like to see him try that sprint against Van der Poel, yeah, wouldn't be so easy then, would it! It's all BS. It has to be enough. We're not talking about Geoghegan Hart or Pereiro Sio here.

I'm not even saying that. Earlier, you gave me a like when I said that I was specifically talking about yesterday, and how it was exasperating to see the other main favourites just letting him go at a time when it wouldn't have been that difficult to follow him, he didn't go solo and even had teammates going with him.

And now you're coming at my throat again because I may have worded the same point a little differently...

Your FW analogy doesn't make sense. Yes, it suits Alaphilippe better to wait for MdH but when they're there, the others do everything, individually, they can to beat him. Yes, Remco is better at a long finale but in those, the others don't individually try their everything. Instead, they hope others will do a bit more and that they can mooch off their work. Then it just ends with the others rolling around half-assedly and me doing Italian handsigns at the tv. That's not to take anything away from Remco but it cannot come as a shock to you that not everybody loves long solo attacks. I basically always hope for things to come back together when I watch a bike race, we just have different tastes.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm not even saying that. Earlier, you gave me a like when I said that I was specifically talking about yesterday, and how it was exasperating to see the other main favourites just letting him go at a time when it wouldn't have been that difficult to follow him, he didn't go solo and even had teammates going with him.

And now you're coming at my throat again because I may have worded the same point a little differently...

Your FW analogy doesn't make sense. Yes, it suits Alaphilippe better to wait for MdH but when they're there, the others do everything, individually, they can to beat him. Yes, Remco is better at a long finale but in those, the others don't individually try their everything. Instead, they hope others will do a bit more and that they can mooch off their work. Then it just ends with the others rolling around half-assedly and me doing Italian handsigns at the tv. That's not to take anything away from Remco but it cannot come as a shock to you that not everybody loves long solo attacks. I basically always hope for things to come back together when I watch a bike race, we just have different tastes.

Giving a like is not to say i necessarily agree. It can mean "ok, i read it" when you don't want to get into a spiralling discussion. I already made my point, i could only repeat what i already said.
Nobody says you have to like long solos. I understand you would rather see two or three evenly matched riders with similar skillsets go blow for blow, trying to drop each other, fighting back etc. But it's not his fault he is clearly stronger than anyone else, including the best of the best, at one thing and is worse at something the others are great at. He'd be a fool to try and beat them there. I'm not saying you have to like it, but insinuating he hasn't faced the best is an insult to him imho. Your words were "I would just like to see him ride against the best for once". He has, plenty of times, and he's beaten them, plenty of times.

Pogacar got dropped when Van Aert attacked in the penultimate lap. Has it occurred to you that maybe the race was hard enough and that some of the other favorites simply knew when Evenepoel went, it would be a bad idea to follow him? And if this thought has occurred to you, does it not mean that he was simply better than "the best"?

 

[tobydawq]

Giving a like is not to say i necessarily agree. It can mean "ok, i read it" when you don't want to get into a spiralling discussion. I already made my point, i could only repeat what i already said.
Nobody says you have to like long solos. I understand you would rather see two or three evenly matched riders with similar skillsets go blow for blow, trying to drop each other, fighting back etc. But it's not his fault he is clearly stronger than anyone else, including the best of the best, at one thing and is worse at something the others are great at. He'd be a fool to try and beat them there. I'm not saying you have to like it, but insinuating he hasn't repeatedly beat the best is an insult to him imho. Your words were "I would just like to see him ride against the best for once". He has, plenty of times, and he's beaten them, plenty of times.

Yeah, that was poorly worded.

San Sebastián and Liège didn't have Pogacar, and while I'm sure he would still have won, it was a pity that Roglic abandoned the Vuelta.

Yesterday was a let-down for me, but again, I'm not criticising him, I'm criticising the others.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, that was poorly worded.

San Sebastián and Liège didn't have Pogacar, and while I'm sure he would still have won, it was a pity that Roglic abandoned the Vuelta.

Yesterday was a let-down for me, but again, I'm not criticising him, I'm criticising the others.

Pogacar was at both San Sebastians Evenepoel won. I also included an edit in my previous post.

 

[tobydawq]

Pogacar was at both San Sebastians Evenepoel won. I also included an edit in my previous post.

Lol, you're right. Rather a forgetful performance this year to my defense

 

[tobydawq]

Pogacar got dropped when Van Aert attacked in the penultimate lap. Has it occurred to you that maybe the race was hard enough and that some of the other favorites simply knew when Evenepoel went, it would be a bad idea to follow him? And if this thought has occurred to you, does it not mean that he was simply better than "the best"?

Honestly, no, this never occurred to me. It seemed like it was ridden at quite a leisurely pace until that group went away (the Mount Keira shenanigans notwithstanding).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Honestly, no, this never occurred to me. It seemed like it was ridden at quite a leisurely pace until that group went away (the Mount Keira shenanigans notwithstanding).

The race at that moment was already 200km underway, the first hour was raced hard. There had already been 8(?) climbs of Mount Pleasant at that point. I'm sure plenty of guys were very aware of the implications of moving in the break with Evenepoel. Or you can chose to believe they all raced like idiots. Like basically every time Evenepoel wins solo.

 

[Oldermanish]

I have no problem with Remco attacking. Of course he should do that when nobody can ever catch him.

It just isn't particularly interesting to watch. And then I do get a little exasperated that the best riders never try to follow him, especially when he went away as softly as he did yesterday.

Welcome to the WC lottery. It seldom is "riveting" entertainment but we shouldn't b*tch because a talented rider left the boredom behind and won. We get what we get.

 

[Red Rick]

Welcome to the WC lottery. It seldom is "riveting" entertainment but we shouldn't b*tch because a talented rider left the boredom behind and won. We get what we get.

People in this thread don't seem to understand you can complain about an underwhelming race without it being a direct personal offense to the actual winner.

 

[tobydawq]

The race at that moment was already 200km underway, the first hour was raced hard. There had already been 8(?) climbs of Mount Pleasant at that point. I'm sure plenty of guys were very aware of the implications of moving in the break with Evenepoel. Or you can chose to believe they all raced like idiots. Like basically every time Evenepoel wins solo.

I will do that even if it means you think of me as an idiot too. I'll have to find a way to cope.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I will do that even if it means you think of me as an idiot too. I'll have to find a way to cope.

I have never thought of you as an idiot. If i have given that impression then i'm sorry.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Remco's only choice was to attack. He cannot win sprints against even the normal guys.
When he attacked 75 k from finish, the other favorites should have let him go alone and then chased him with all their teammates. No point in teammates wheelsucking Remco if they cannot follow him like a limpet without taking a turn, case in point Colbrelli, Ghys. If the favorites follow, he will not cooperate and attack again after some time and then it becomes like Granon and his teammate WVA wins the sprint. A lot of the favorite teams made a tactical error by putting riders in the break with Remco cooperating with him.
The Next WCC will be interesting as Belgium will stick to the same tactics while the others will have to be innovative. if they make it hard, it plays into Remco's hand and if not, then the sprinters dominate.