Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

What we do know, is that Remco had a lot of difficulties getting back to his normal level after his fall. We all saw this and we were getting worried. I am not sure that "mother in law" had the same impact on Pog.

Of course not.

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't think it was a factor, his own mother yes. His training would not have been affected, but only missing Liege, which has nothing to do with Tour preparation.

The elements of a tough personal year would include an unsuccessful Tour title defense. Media pressure, team pressure....my point was he handled it well. A death in the family is no small thing, especially for his spouse. The guy maintained the class he is known for.

 

[Extinction]

The elements of a tough personal year would include an unsuccessful Tour title defense. Media pressure, team pressure....my point was he handled it well. A death in the family is no small thing, especially for his spouse. The guy maintained the class he is known for.

I don't doubt that, but, difficult though it doubtless was, I don't think the family death impacted his Tour performance.

 

[peterfin]

Are there any races confirmed where both Evenepoel and Pogacar will compete in 2023? I assume the UAE tour, LBL, the road race of the WCC and Lombardie are certainties. Anything else?

 

[Andy schleck]

Are there any races confirmed where both Evenepoel and Pogacar will compete in 2023? I assume the UAE tour, LBL, the road race of the WCC and Lombardie are certainties. Anything else?

Tirreno adriatico.

 

[Berniece]

Are there any races confirmed where both Evenepoel and Pogacar will compete in 2023? I assume the UAE tour, LBL, the road race of the WCC and Lombardie are certainties. Anything else?

Why UAE Tour?

 

[Bonimenier]

It's time Pogacar stops dodging Evenepoel.

 

[peterfin]

Why UAE Tour?

Procyclingstats lists Evenepoel as confirmed for the UAE Tour and I assume that Pogacar will ride it (as leader of the UAE team).

 

[Berniece]

Procyclingstats lists Evenepoel as confirmed for the UAE Tour and I assume that Pogacar will ride it (as leader of the UAE team).

Doubt they would already know this, I think that’s a guess on their end

 

[houtdffan]

Remco Evenepoel talks training in the rain, running for fun, and blowing out on burgers

Want to get to know what makes the world and Vuelta a España champion tick? Evenepoel provides some clues.

www.velonews.com

He does have a bit of Ullrich in him. Not strudels, but burgers and ice cream

 

[Escarabajo]

That would be a problem.

 

[Andre]

Just stick to Craquelin Remco.

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't doubt that, but, difficult though it doubtless was, I don't think the family death impacted his Tour performance.

I was speaking to the point of cumulative stress and disruption to a training program. We've had recent GT winners quit the sport over some injury and stress because the sport is so focused and demanding. Tadej seems to be a different breed that can separate his happiness from those pressures. It doesn't mean they don't affect performance and specifically; I didn't highlight family death as specific thing.

 

[Extinction]

I was speaking to the point of cumulative stress and disruption to a training program. We've had recent GT winners quit the sport over some injury and stress because the sport is so focused and demanding. Tadej seems to be a different breed that can separate his happiness from those pressures. It doesn't mean they don't affect performance and specifically; I didn't highlight family death as specific thing.

Cumulative stress is clearly not an issue for him, Jumbo-Visma yes.

 

[Oldermanish]

Cumulative stress is clearly not an issue for him, Jumbo-Visma yes.

He manages himself and stress well. We're off track on a Remco thread so I'll conclude with an observation: we are guessing and a definitive impact would only be confirmed by the competitor. If it's important for some to feel Tadej was at his best and Remco schooled him; fine.
The upcoming season is new and one thing is a constant: things change.

 

[Extinction]

He manages himself and stress well. We're off track on a Remco thread so I'll conclude with an observation: we are guessing and a definitive impact would only be confirmed by the competitor. If it's important for some to feel Tadej was at his best and Remco schooled him; fine.
The upcoming season is new and one thing is a constant: things change.

Remco schooled everyone at Worlds. I don't see the point in suggesting Tadej was not well prepared for the event. He was, just not as much as Remco, end of story. Pogacar then went on to repeat at Lombardia against a rider Evenepoel pretty much dominated at the Vuelta, so he clearly was good, as Montreal already demonstrated, but October isn't April (although neither was it for Remco). This is likely why Tadej in a post season interview said the Belgian is a "very strong rider, perhaps even a bit stronger than me." Next season QS won't make the mistake of bringing Remco to a TA clearly not at adequit weight/form to compete against the likes of Pogacar/Vingegaard, where he was schooled by the Slovenian on Monte Carpegna. Aparently they are sending him to San Juan in preparation for the UAE Tour, where Tadej will already be fine tuned since it is his team's title race. There we should see fireworks between them, with QS wanting to observe just what ammunition Remco has to fire at Pogacar, who surely will be dealing with a bigger fish than Yates this time. I don't know the course, but if there is any TT I'd put my money on Evenepoel for GC. And then they should face each other again at Tirreno, at which Remco should be decidedly in better form than at last year's event. Here the TTs will surely give him the edge for GC. The point is that the cycling world is going to see a Remco completely over his setback from Lombardia 2020, who will have developed in confidence and strength from his GT victory, and that's going to be a formitable force to reckon with for any competitor. Evidently QS knows this, which is why they are putting him against Pogacar already at the UAE Tour, if reports are correct. Indeed things will change, but I see no reason why Remco won't be an ugly beast to face next year and for years to come after what he demonstrated in latter 22.

 

[Cassirer]

but I see know reason why Remco won't be an ugly beast to face next year and for years to come after what he demonstrated in latter 22.

Come on, remco isn't that ugly, even if you prefer pogs stick-out-hair looks...

 

[Oldermanish]

Come on, remco isn't that ugly, even if you prefer pogs stick-out-hair looks...

I think he gels it so it does that. It probably provides and aero advantage as well.

Remco schooled everyone at Worlds. I don't see the point in suggesting Tadej was not well prepared for the event. He was, just not as much as Remco, end of story. Pogacar then went on to repeat at Lombardia against a rider Evenepoel pretty much dominated at the Vuelta, so he clearly was good, as Montreal already demonstrated, but October isn't April (although neither was it for Remco). This is likely why Tadej in a post season interview said the Belgian is a "very strong rider, perhaps even a bit stronger than me." Next season QS won't make the mistake of bringing Remco to a TA clearly not at adequit weight/form to compete against the likes of Pogacar/Vingegaard, where he was schooled by the Slovenian on Monte Carpegna. Aparently they are sending him to San Juan in preparation for the UAE Tour, where Tadej will already be fine tuned since it is his team's title race. There we should see fireworks between them, with QS wanting to observe just what ammunition Remco has to fire at Pogacar, who surely will be dealing with a bigger fish than Yates this time. I don't know the course, but if there is any TT I'd put my money on Evenepoel for GC. And then they should face each other again at Tirreno, at which Remco should be decidedly in better form than at last year's event. Here the TTs will surely give him the edge for GC. The point is that the cycling world is going to see a Remco completely over his setback from Lombardia 2020, who will have developed in confidence and strength from his GT victory, and that's going to be a formitable force to reckon with for any competitor. Evidently QS knows this, which is why they are putting him against Pogacar already at the UAE Tour, if reports are correct. Indeed things will change, but I see no reason why Remco won't be an ugly beast to face next year and for years to come after what he demonstrated in latter 22.

Again, you enjoy characterizing my statement on Tadej's challenges as an excuse. Those sorts of challenges turn into facts in the real world whether you think they do or not. That your Remco idolatry requires his adversaries to be defeated and subject to a Remco "dominate" at their peak performance isn't realistic; particularly in a sport like cycling.
Hopefully you won't abandon your support for him if he doesn't measure up at each event. Remco himself has grown enough he might actually tell his fans to expect his best effort and leave it at that.

 

[Extinction]

I think he gels it so it does that. It probably provides and aero advantage as well.

Again, you enjoy characterizing my statement on Tadej's challenges as an excuse. Those sorts of challenges turn into facts in the real world whether you think they do or not. That your Remco idolatry requires his adversaries to be defeated and subject to a Remco "dominate" at their peak performance isn't realistic; particularly in a sport like cycling.
Hopefully you won't abandon your support for him if he doesn't measure up at each event. Remco himself has grown enough he might actually tell his fans to expect his best effort and leave it at that.

Now you are merely being absurd and foolish with it, as you damn well know that results do the talking. And, on that score, the end of 22 was favorable to both. It's my impression that Pogacar has reached a level beyond which he cannot go, whereas with Evenepoel we have yet to see his best form. Winning the Vuelta after his great setback is a confirmation of this. By contrast, Tadej has been much more fortunate and thus will not improve significantly in the future. Plus UAE has struck while the iron was hot.

 

[Andy schleck]

Now you are merely being absurd and foolish with it, as you damn well know that results do the talking. And, on that score, the end of 22 was favorable to both. It's my impression that Pogacar has reached a level beyond which he cannot go, whereas with Evenepoel we have yet to see his best form. Winning the Vuelta after his great setback is a confirmation of this. By contrast, Tadej has been much more fortunate and thus will not improve significantly in the future. Plus UAE has struck while the iron was hot.

There's no evidence that pogacar will not get better or that remco will be even better next year. We don't know what will happen. You are just saying that because you're a big fan of remco. You are just saying what you want to happen.

 

[Oldermanish]

Now you are merely being absurd and foolish with it, as you damn well know that results do the talking. And, on that score, the end of 22 was favorable to both. It's my impression that Pogacar has reached a level beyond which he cannot go, whereas with Evenepoel we have yet to see his best form. Winning the Vuelta after his great setback is a confirmation of this. By contrast, Tadej has been much more fortunate and thus will not improve significantly in the future. Plus UAE has struck while the iron was hot.

Evenepoel has progressed fantastically since his injury. He hopefully has more upside as that would be exciting for fans to witness. It is, however premature to expect him to "dominate" everyone. The kind of generational talent that used to have a grip on results for a decade are becoming a thing of the past and racing is becoming a situation of budget-driven team and a certain parity of form preparation by more and more riders. Results do the talking, as you have noted and Tadej has the depth that speaks for itself.
Your impressions and opinion are exactly those and there is very little to support the premise that " Tadej has been much more fortunate and thus will not improve significantly in the future." It may your wishful fandream that he will be dominated by Remco but he's not the only challenger out there. Moreover; I doubt you would ever hear that from any current GT competitor because they know what Tadej's done to them all and again, as you said: the results do the talking. He's not Egan Bernal with a remanufactured back or Primoz Roglic with a remanufactured shoulder.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I guess Extinction's reasoning is that 2 years ago, Evenepoel was walking on crutches, while Pogacar was being heralded as the "true" new Merckx. Since then Pogacar has hit his limits and not really progressed and got a big dent in his shining armor, while Evenepoel, after 9 months of recovery and an extra season to get back on track, has since made huge strides, now being one of three riders in history to win a monument, GT and WCC in one season. It's reasonable to assume Pogacar has indeed hit his limit or at least a point where any progression will be marginal, while we don't know about Evenepoel since he's still on an upward trajectory.

Doesn't mean anything is set in stone. For all we know Pogacar will drop the "vroom vroom" racing and turn into a cynical rider, wasting no energy and taking a more clinical approach to boost his efficiency even further. Maybe Evenepoel doesn't have any headroom either and we'll find out in a few months. But i guess at least the assumption that Pogacar is no longer on an upward trajectory, doesn't seem completely unreasonable. If Pogacar on the other hand had the same bad luck Evenepoel had two years ago, or that of Bernal on multiple occasions, he could also find the best part of his career behind him.

 

[Oldermanish]

I guess Extinction's reasoning is that 2 years ago, Evenepoel was walking on crutches, while Pogacar was being heralded as the "true" new Merckx. Since then Pogacar has hit his limits and not really progressed and got a big dent in his shining armor, while Evenepoel, after 9 months of recovery and an extra season to get back on track, has since made huge strides, now being one of three riders in history to win a monument, GT and WCC in one season. It's reasonable to assume Pogacar has indeed hit his limit or at least a point where any progression will be marginal, while we don't know about Evenepoel since he's still on an upward trajectory.

Doesn't mean anything is set in stone. For all we know Pogacar will drop the "vroom vroom" racing and turn into a cynical rider, wasting no energy and taking a more clinical approach to boost his efficiency even further. Maybe Evenepoel doesn't have any headroom either and we'll find out in a few months. But i guess at least the assumption that Pogacar is no longer on an upward trajectory, doesn't seem completely unreasonable. If Pogacar on the other hand had the same bad luck Evenepoel had two years ago, or that of Bernal on multiple occasions, he could also find the best part of his career behind him.

All of our curbside analysis could be credible. It's also a tough sport and sometimes the longer term performers end up being the ones that manage the pressure best. But I should know better than to debate the future with dedicated fans that won't appreciate the competition. Fans can be fickle.
Ask Lance; he had a fairy tale career resurrection and never thought fans would doubt him. To Remco's credit his outward attitude has improved probably more than his physical skills which could turn out to be his best asset. Just like Pogacar.

 

[Extinction]

There's no evidence that pogacar will not get better or that remco will be even better next year. We don't know what will happen. You are just saying that because you're a big fan of remco. You are just saying what you want to happen.

No evidence, huh? Pog's been riding since he was a kid, came onto the pro scene with meteoric rise, won his first Tour with a stunning performance on the penultimate day, then, last year, repeated in France, but, after dropping a watt bomb in the Alpes, was not the strongest climber in the Pyrennes. As we all saw at this year's Tour he met his match and not only because tactically he made mistakes, but because he had no margin to up his level from the previous two years.

Tadej is a phenomomal rider, but I honestly think he's at his best now, also because he is a very fast finisher and usually that doesn't leave much for improvement on the long efforts. And UAE has chosen to bring him to the pinnacle of the sport early in his career, knowing full well that he'll hit a leveling off plateau within 3 to 5 years.

By contrast Remco started relatively late in cycling, had a major setback early, initially came back in an ill-conceived manner and has not been rushed into the Tour, but put on a long-term development trajectory. Aside from a sensational Liege performance, the latter part of this past season showed his potential for growth is still quite there. QS must be banking on this, otherwise he'd be going to the Tour next year instead of the Giro. I bet QS is planning for Evenepoel to start to come into his maximum powers only when he goes to his first Tour likely in 2024. He will need that kind of firepower to win it. Yet it wasn't too long ago that some were saying he couldn't climb at World Tour level, winning a GT, they said, was out of the question. But then he prooved them wrong at the Vuelta and it wasn't over there with Worlds on the horizon. Now you don't do that in a season at 22 after walking on crutches a little over a year prior, if your potential for growth isn't there. While the fact that he hasn't done his first Tour yet and won't next year either, indicates to me that he still has a significant margin for improvement, otherwise QS hasn't a clue, which really isn't likely. It's far more probable that we simply have yet to see the top Remco.

I'll give Tadej the benefit of the doubt, however, and concede he may have some room to get stronger, although I honestly can't see it as very significant growth potential as he has already ridden three Tours.

 

[Cookster15]

I guess Extinction's reasoning is that 2 years ago, Evenepoel was walking on crutches, while Pogacar was being heralded as the "true" new Merckx. Since then Pogacar has hit his limits and not really progressed and got a big dent in his shining armor, while Evenepoel, after 9 months of recovery and an extra season to get back on track, has since made huge strides, now being one of three riders in history to win a monument, GT and WCC in one season. It's reasonable to assume Pogacar has indeed hit his limit or at least a point where any progression will be marginal, while we don't know about Evenepoel since he's still on an upward trajectory.

Doesn't mean anything is set in stone. For all we know Pogacar will drop the "vroom vroom" racing and turn into a cynical rider, wasting no energy and taking a more clinical approach to boost his efficiency even further. Maybe Evenepoel doesn't have any headroom either and we'll find out in a few months. But i guess at least the assumption that Pogacar is no longer on an upward trajectory, doesn't seem completely unreasonable. If Pogacar on the other hand had the same bad luck Evenepoel had two years ago, or that of Bernal on multiple occasions, he could also find the best part of his career behind him.

All your logic is sound and you may be proven correct. Except also, as you put it, nothing is set in stone. I still think Pogacar is an equal talent and assuming he will decline at a younger age is speculation lacking evidence. There are two reasons Pog lost last year’s Tour. One of those reasons can’t be discussed here.