Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Walter1234]

Thanks Captain Hindsight.


Also, this is January, when he was indeed getting dropped in WT races.

Don't know who captain hindsight is; but you made the quote beginning of Januari; Remco didn't even race at the pro level at that moment. And first WT was only end of Feb.
My reaction on being exposed like this would be: I was wrong, he surprised me... ;-). But I don't think I would make up things that didn't happen yet. But you were probably not the only one if we check the thread ;-).
I remember a father of a U23 racer who said somewhere in July last year that in the U23 he would not be able to repeat what he did in the junior level. And that is something we indeed will not know.

Walter

 

[Walter1234]

Re:

Does the poor sod really think he good hold Richie's wheel on Willunga Hill

At least he finished before Richie in his first WT hill stage....

 

[Walter1234]

It actually is fun to see these old post.
On the question if he is the new Merckx; definitely not: Remco has no such thing as a sprint. There are many,many rider that will beat him in efforts up to one minute. Check how he attacks: he doesn't really sprints away while attacking. He just rides a bit faster and other racers descide not follow...
So he will not win as many races as merckx.
This is under the assumption he will not improve that much any more as the average 19 year old cyclist up to their 25th year (who gain about 15W in FTP per year -realistic?). If he gains another 15W/year in FTP the coming 6 years he can also win flat stages (as nobody can hold his wheel even on the flat...Comparable to what happened to Campenaerts earlier this year). But that seems unlikely.

Walter

 

[Walter1234]

...

That being said, I wonder sometimes if the U23s being a seperate category is all that great for a young riders development.

It is at least in Belgium a bit of a strange situation. Actually most races where u23 race, are open for all. So they race often against elite -but not necessarily pro -riders. Pure U23 races are scarce. You have to look at higher ranked races to find specific U23 races (like Ronde Van Vlaanderen en LBL). The local circuit is mostly open for all. Which actually means that if you are less talented you will race often adults. The talented U23 can race the higher ranked pure U23 races.
That being said: many riders are not up to their real potential at 19. The difference in the speed the different riders bodies takes to become adult is big. Many of them haven't even shaved yet. Where as the current junior world champion won with a full beard. Making him 2 to even 3 years physical older than some of his competitors. So yes the world champion might be ready to race adults (and maybe hardly improve the coming years), versus some boys with higher potentials are definitely not. For them the U23 is a gift.
In U23 teams you have even an occasional rider who is 23 (so actually too old) who is kept in the team because they believe he can still make it - for example because he favored studying first.

For women you could maybe really make a case where U23 doesn't make sense. Maybe they need a U21 instead of a U19.

Walter

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

2014?

Yes, i see you have absolutely no idea what was intended. I will leave it for all the people who think ITT stands for Individual Time Traveling.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yes, i see you have absolutely no idea what was intended. I will leave it for all the people who think ITT stands for Individual Time Traveling.

Well, personally I'd like if someone pointed such a typo out to me…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That being said: many riders are not up to their real potential at 19. The difference in the speed the different riders bodies takes to become adult is big. Many of them haven't even shaved yet. Where as the current junior world champion won with a full beard. Making him 2 to even 3 years physical older than some of his competitors. So yes the world champion might be ready to race adults (and maybe hardly improve the coming years), versus some boys with higher potentials are definitely not. For them the U23 is a gift.

Walter, on the bottom left of every post you make, there is an "edit" button. You can use it to add stuff to a previous post of yours, so you don't have to post multiple messages after each other, which is generally considered bad etiquette. If you want to quote multiple messages into one, you can use the "quote" button on the lower right corner of each message you want to quote, instead of "reply".

That said, i think they would probably be better off making the U23 into U21 for men as well. Now you have physically fullgrown men, beating 18 year old boys who just came over from junior ranks. Look at this years Tour de l'Avenir, where the winner is actually of the same generation of Bernal, Lambrecht, Sivakov... and the only reason he won was because he waited long enough so he could beat guys 3 years younger, because it wasn't happening for him against guys his own age.

Well, personally I'd like if someone pointed such a typo out to me…

If someone pointed it out to me in a less obnoxious way, i might as well

 

[Walter1234]

Walter, on the bottom left of every post you make, there is an "edit" button.

I try to remember; when I edit do all readers of the thread get an update? So I post something; somebody reads the post, I update those who read get an the update? I tried to find in the past something on the do's and don't's in this forum but didn't find something. Is it out there?

That said, i think they would probably be better off making the U23 into U21 for men as well. Now you have physically fullgrown men, beating 18 year old boys who just came over from junior ranks. Look at this years Tour de l'Avenir, where the winner is actually of the same generation of Bernal, Lambrecht, Sivakov... and the only reason he won was because he waited long enough

So what? The alternative is that the winner Tobias Foss would have stopped because he was not good enough to be pro at 21 and too old for the other category. Is that what you aim for? The U23 is just a waiting chamber for pro and those to realise they won't be pro. You just shouldn't take the result in U23 too seriously. Those that are ready will move to pro level sooner. So the quality of the better U23 remains constant. And then once more; not because you are a good U23 you become a good pro; the level is different once again from U23 to pro level. Jan Bakelants won tour de l'avenir but never became a GT contender.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I try to remember; when I edit do all readers of the thread get an update? So I post something; somebody reads the post, I update those who read get an the update? I tried to find in the past something on the do's and don't's in this forum but didn't find something. Is it out there?

In that case people do not get notified that there is an edit/update. However, in such a case it would be best to plan what you're going to say a bit beforehand. Most forums don't like it when you double post, let alone tripple or quadruple post. Though, for me, it's just a friendly pointer. Do with it as you will, i'm not an admin or a mod. Up to you to determine when a message is "worth" a new post, or when you can just add it to a post you just made.

So what? The alternative is that sivakov would have stopped because he was not good enough to be pro at 21 and too old for the other category. Is that what you aim for? The U23 is just a waiting chamber for pro and those to realise they won't be pro. You just shouldn't take the result in U23 too seriously. Those that are ready will move to pro level sooner. So the quality of the better U23 remains constant. And then once more; not because you are a good U23 you become a good pro; the level is different once again from U23 to pro level. Jan Bakelants won tour de l'avenir but never became a GT contender.

Personally, i don't think that if you have to wait until you turn 23 before moving to the pro ranks, before showing signs that you have what it takes, that it will all of a sudden happen at that age. Or even that it's somehow a sign of quality, because you managed to beat the guy in 2nd place who is 2 years younger, and the guy in 3rd place who is 3 years younger. Also, i wasn't talking about Sivakov (who proved himself many times over in the U23, before the age of 21), but about Tobias Foss. If you need more time as a cyclist, you can try your luck in the amateur ranks and further mature there.

 

[Walter1234]

Personally, i don't think that if you have to wait until you turn 23 before moving to the pro ranks

It is not the rider who decides he is ready, but a team that will descide you can turn pro. Like a Van Avermaet who only became pro in the year he turned 23. Some riders just need the extra yeads to reach a pro level. Nothing wrong there.

Or even that it's somehow a sign of quality, because you managed to beat the guy in 2nd place who is 2 years younger, and the guy in 3rd place who is 3 years younger

That is the case if you take the results too serious. The result of the race says just say that racer A is better then racer B at that moment.
Maybe the racer who is older finished his master degrees where as a young racer just lives at the expences of his parents and trained twice as much. In U23 it is never just the result that counts. Ilan Van Wilder lives almost as 100% pro; Mauri Sevenants who is older is about to finish a decent degree. Who will be the better rider if you compare their results today?

, i wasn't talking about Sivakov

Was corrected before you saved the message; I have found the edit button.... ;-).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It is not the rider who decides he is ready, but a team that will descide you can turn pro. Like a Van Avermaet who only became pro in the year he turned 23. Some riders just need the extra yeads to reach a pro level. Nothing wrong there.


That is the case if you take the results too serious. The result of the race says just say that racer A is better then racer B at that moment.
Maybe the racer who is older finished his master degrees where as a young racer just lives at the expences of his parents and trained twice as much. In U23 it is never just the result that counts. Ilan Van Wilder lives almost as 100% pro; Mauri Sevenants who is older is about to finish a decent degree. Who will be the better rider if you compare their results today?


Was corrected before you saved the message; I have found the edit button.... ;-).

We should probably continue this debate in the U23/Juniors topic, but i will say this. When the U23 was created, it made a lot of sense at that time. Now, we are a decade or two down the line, and teams start scouting these riders a lot earlier. Technology has leapt forward, training methods, medical data, all that jazz is now lightyears ahead of what it was in the 90s-00s. If you are physically "fit" to become a pro cyclist, you can know by the time you are 20. And so do the coaches, the doctors and the teams. At this time, what can set you apart, is the mental aspect. You can punch above your weight by willpower, or you can fade into obscurity with the best genes imaginable if you can't cope with the pressure. But you are not going to become a good pro if your body isn't made for it, just because you get to wait until you are 23. As for that mental aspect, "outwaiting" your more talented peers, in order to strike against the next generation isn't what i imagine to be the foundation of a great champion. That doesn't mean he can't become a good pro cyclist, but i could have told you that 3 years ago as well.

 

[Walter1234]

Vacek beats Evenepoel with one second in the MTT. Not too huge a surprise, as Vacek also beat him on the only real mountain stage the juniors have done this year in Course de la Paix. He was always going to be the biggest danger for Evenepoel in Innsbruck.

The story how it is told now. In the ITT, the timing was hand stopped. Remco passed another rider while crossing the line and they took his time too late. According to his GPS data recording he should have won....

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The story how it is not told now. In the ITT, the timing was hand stopped. Remco passed another rider in the while crossing the line and they took his time too late. According to his GPS data recording he should have won....

Interesting. Hadn't heard about that before, but on the other hand, it also doesn't matter that much. It was the second race that day iirc, and Remco had already won the regular stage earlier that day with an attack where he was doing literally 100% of the work, while Vacek was cowering somewhere in the peloton. Had Vacek made the same effort as Remco, he would not have won the ITT anyway.

 

[Walter1234]

It doesn't really matter indeed; just tells something about racing in Italy ;-).
Actually in the course de la paix that year Remco also almost didn't win the ITT. He finished in the same second as Skjelmose -forgive an incorrect spelling. That was because during the ITT he lost time because of an almost crash with a deer....

 

[Walter1234]

If you like numbers:

View: https://youtu.be/Q3rubH0iVzM

It discusses also the test climb done by the Belgian cycling team. But the discussion in the video is on the 2018 test; in the thread here there was reference to the 2017 test.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Remco was interviewed by Belgian national media (in Dutch and in French).
Some outtakes:

After puncturing both front and back in Roubaix as a junior (in the lead at that time), he said he would never return there ever again. He hates cobbles.
He thinks he has a chance at Liège Bastogne Liège, even this year. It's also the classic he'd like to win most.
Being asked about Bernal & Pogacar... him being the best ITT'er already out of the three. Will he be the best climber as well, in a year or two? He doesn't think so, but maybe he won't be dropped that badly either.
Would he be giving this interview should a U17 football trainer not have benched him? No.
He might ride both FW and LBL.

There's a rumor that during training last winter, he chased Stybar, and then dropped him. But it wasn't Stybar, it was Mas.
Classica San Sebastian wasn't a goal in itself, until they saw how he coped with the altitude training prior to Adriatica Ionica. Then he became plan B for San Sebastian (after Alaphilippe). When Alaphilippe abandoned, they informed him has was the new team leader.
Jokes that van Aert should focus on his sprint rather than his timetrial.
After the Belgian nationals ITT he really started to believe in his ITT capabilities as a pro and started focusing and training on it more.
He was getting a massage when he was informed of Bjorg's death, and immediately said to his soigneur, "thursday, i'll win for Bjorg".
Bernal is the best climber at the moment.
Biggest disappointment was the WCC RR, and the lack of communication when he tried to bring Gilbert back. They went from 1m30s to 10 seconds, but he was completely spent and Gilbert couldn't manage to bridge the last 10 seconds on his own.

Remco Evenepoel : "Je rêve de remporter Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Roubaix jamais !"

Champion d’Europe du contre-la-montre, lauréat du Tour de Belgique, vainqueur de la Clasica San Sebastian, vice-champion du monde du contre-la-montre… La première saison pro de Remco Evenepoel a été brillante ! Le coureur belge de 19 ans, véritable...

www.rtbf.be

(Her)bekijk Vive le Vélo - Wielerjaar 2019, met Evenepoel en Van Aert | sporza

In een speciale editie van Vive Le Vélo legt Karl Vannieuwkerke het wielerjaar 2019 neer. Samen met Eddy Planckaert, Remco Evenepoel en Wout van Aert bespreekt hij de meest spraakmakende fragmenten van het voorbije jaar.

sporza.be

 

[spalco]

Questioning his potential as a GC rider, which is undoubtedly there, seems a bit laughable after all what he's accomplished as a junior and in his first year as a pro. That doesn't mean he'll become the GT worldbeater he hopes to be. But he's certainly free to dream. If not him, then who? He only finished a few seconds behind Grossschartner on the MTF in Turkey. He finished only a few seconds behind Dumoulin on the first MTF in Quatar (and ahead a lot of Sivakov, Nibali, Kwiatkowski...). Acting like he has shown nothing that indicates he has potential as a GC rider is simply disingenuous.

GC rider sure, no doubt.

But I believe GT potential is something that can only be tested in practice. The critical point is regeneration ability, which I think no 1-day or 1-week-race can measure; only being on the edge for 3 weeks straight without exploding (or not exploding too much) can tell. Some athletes have that, some don't, some mediocre riders are better at that than ones that look superior on paper.

I believe though!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

GC rider sure, no doubt.

But I believe GT potential is something that can only be tested in practice. The critical point is regeneration ability, which I think no 1-day or 1-week-race can measure; only being on the edge for 3 weeks straight without exploding (or not exploding too much) can tell. Some athletes have that, some don't, some mediocre riders are better at that than ones that look superior on paper.

I believe though!

Sure, but the comment was a response about winning l'Avenir. Which is also "just" a 10 day race, of 130k stages.

 

[Bardamu]

Is there are more unsympathetic figure in cycling than this guy? Everything about the kid seems off.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Is there are more unsympathetic figure in cycling than this guy? Everything about the kid seems off.

Thanks for this in depth and well thought out analysis. We'll keep you posted.

 

[Bardamu]

No need to be passive-aggressive. You don't agree that in every appearance he comes across like a little *** without any sympathetic traits? He was sitting next to Wout van Aert in Vive le Velo this week, the two couldn't be any more different.

 

[tobydawq]

Is there are more unsympathetic figure in cycling than this guy?

Yes.

 

[Bardamu]

Name one.

 

[Walter1234]

Is there are more unsympathetic figure in cycling than this guy? Everything about the kid seems off.

And what is specific unsympathetic?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No need to be passive-aggressive. You don't agree that in every appearance he comes across like a little *** without any sympathetic traits? He was sitting next to Wout van Aert in Vive le Velo this week, the two couldn't be any more different.

As you can see above, i saw the broadcast.

No, i don't agree. It seems like you are forgetting a few things. He's still only 19. He only started cycling when he was 17. In a period of 18 months, he took off like a rocket, has been the most talked about cyclist in Belgium and quite possibly the world (or not far off). Not a week goes by or he gets a camera pushed in his face. Furthermore, he comes from a football background which as a teamsport, is a lot more macho and egocentric (though you would think the opposite, that's not true). No other 19 year old in cycling has ever had to face the media like he has.

But the kid is basically just trying to stay real. But he's still a kid nevertheless. I agree he does and says some dumb stuff, but he is also quite refreshing to watch on many occasions. He says what he thinks, and he tries to be respectful, but sometimes testosterone takes over and you can see that he is too young and too new to cycling to put things into perspective. Like the Bettiol comment. I'm quite sure he only said what others (jokingly or not) said in the team. And now they ask him about it, and he says that next time they won't let him ride. So, does he say that because he's a douchebag or because he "thinks" it's what he should say to be a team player, trying to stick up for his team? Not realizing there is a difference between saying something like that at the breakfast table between teammates, or on live television.

He's also incredibly ambitious and he's a real winner. When things bother him, he gets irked and he hasn't learned to cope with that with camera's on him all the time. Making gestures towards the motorcycles in Lunigiana, at Skuijns for not fully committing in San Sebastian, saying things like that about Bettiol. And people are quick to judge a kid that is still trying to find his way. Blowing things out of proportion. Again, no other 19 year old has ever been in the spotlights like him. Most guys his age are lucky to get a decent result as a first year U23 rider, hoping to be on a picture in some race nobody heard of, while he wins San Sebastian, ECC ITT, and silver at the WCC ITT. He hasn't really had time to learn or adjust.

On the other hand, comparing him to van Aert, who is possibly one of the most likable guys in cycling, who has always been down to earth, humble, having had a tough time as a kid (when he was small and skinny compared to his competitors), who is always calm, focused and is 5 or 6 years older, isn't exactly fair either.