Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Salvarani]

Crap that Remco is absent in so many of the spring classics/1D races. Racing these weird minor stage races might be a good prep for the Tour but it looks like he’s avoiding the big guns.

Real shame, but anything to make the hype last a little bit longer.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That's like saying income and expenditures are one and the same. You spend more than you earn, it will result in a deficit.

In that sense, sure.

It was a meaningless statement, since it is true for everyone, regardless of how good they actually are and thus not helping to differentiate good from bad bike handlers. Red Flanders' point was that he crashes too often. Yet someone like Pidcock crashes just as often, while supposedly a better bike handler. So the issue is in fact not how good a bike handler a rider is, but how often he pushes past his abilities.

 

[Netserk]

It was a meaningless statement, since it is true for everyone, regardless of how good they actually are and thus not helping to differentiate good from bad bike handlers. Red Flanders' point was that he crashes too often. Yet someone like Pidcock crashes just as often, while supposedly a better bike handler. So the issue is in fact not how good a bike handler a rider is, but how often he pushes past his abilities.

It was?

Took him 10 seconds just to get back on his bike and pedaling. Back up to speed, back in rhythm, crash was easily 20-25+. Plus he's going to be more tentative in the corners after that.

But it is what it is. He makes a lot of mistakes, both tactically and in bike handling. He's just not controlled, he rides still too much on emotion. Some emotion is great, I certainly don't want him to become passive and predictable, his emotion is a big part of his personality and his appeal. But he's not smoothing out those edges and figuring the details it takes to win at this point, and it's been more than long enough.

As an avid mountain biker, it's harder for me to continue be a fan of a guy with such bike-handling errors. He's starting to bug me a bit. I want him to win, but you just can't beat the top guys doing stupid stuff like this in a TT. Not the first crash like this in an important TT.

 

[red_flanders]

It was a meaningless statement, since it is true for everyone, regardless of how good they actually are and thus not helping to differentiate good from bad bike handlers. Red Flanders' point was that he crashes too often. Yet someone like Pidcock crashes just as often, while supposedly a better bike handler. So the issue is in fact not how good a bike handler a rider is, but how often he pushes past his abilities.

"Supposedly a better bike handler".

Good, good stuff.

And again. My comments about Remco have squat to do with Pidcock. They were about...wait for it...Remco. How I view his riding. How other people handle a bike has nothing to do with Remco's bike-handling as it limits his particular ambitions. Or potential. Or palmares. Why limit my obvious double-standard to Pidcock! MVDP crashed into a pole a couple months ago! Why don't I go after him? Or every other rider? If I dare say a mildly critical thing about Remco, we must defend!

But do bang on.

 

[proffate]

That's like saying income and expenditures are one and the same. You spend more than you earn, it will result in a deficit.

In that sense, sure.

Well, yes, anyone can spend beyond their means. But usually we judge those who have high means and still go broke (Nick Cage, sportspeople, etc) more harshly than those who have low income and are destitute. It seems like you're doing the opposite, forgiving the skills-rich and reprimanding the skills-poor.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

"Supposedly a better bike handler".

Good, good stuff.

And again. My comments about Remco have squat to do with Pidcock. They were about...wait for it...Remco. How I view his riding. How other people handle a bike has nothing to do with Remco's bike-handling as it limits his particular ambitions. Or potential. Or palmares. Why limit my obvious double-standard to Pidcock! MVDP crashed into a pole a couple months ago! Why don't I go after him? Or every other rider? If I dare say a mildly critical thing about Remco, we must defend!

But do bang on.

Where did i say your comments were about Pidcock? I was replying to someone who replied to the point somebody else made about Pidcock.
Where did i give you the impression that you can not be mildly critical? Where am i defending Evenepoel's bike handling? I was merely pointing out that bikehandling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo. It is the inability to correctly judge their limits, wherever those limits may lie.

Do bang on. Or maybe not.
Best not.

 

[bNator]

Where did i say your comments were about Pidcock? I was replying to someone who replied to the point somebody else made about Pidcock.
Where did i give you the impression that you can not be mildly critical? Where am i defending Evenepoel's bike handling? I was merely pointing out that bikehandling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo. It is the inability to correctly judge their limits, wherever those limits may lie.

Do bang on. Or maybe not.
Best not.

This is not necessarily true, though… An integral part of being a good bike handler is among other things, to predict where one’s limits lie which helps limit unintentional risk. And here lies a difference between an exceptional bike handler (Pidcock) and mediocre one (for them purpose of this discussion, let’s just stay with Remco😁 ). While Pidcock knows he’s taking the risk which may end badly (and sometimes it does), Remco thinks he’s playing it safe and still it ends badly…

 

[AmRacer]

This is not necessarily true, though… An integral part of being a good bike handler is among other things, to predict where one’s limits lie which helps limit unintentional risk. And here lies a difference between an exceptional bike handler (Pidcock) and mediocre one (for them purpose of this discussion, let’s just stay with Remco😁 ). While Pidcock knows he’s taking the risk which may end badly (and sometimes it does), Remco thinks he’s playing it safe and still it ends badly…

In other words, Remco thinks he's better than he is.🤣

 

[bNator]

In other words, Remco thinks he's better than he is.🤣

Not really - it’s just harder for him to asses the risk he’s taking…

 

[red_flanders]

Where did i say your comments were about Pidcock?

"Red Flanders' point was that he crashes too often. Yet someone like Pidcock crashes just as often, while supposedly a better bike handler."

I would suggest if you don't want the reader to make tight associations in your points, you might not want to lump them together with phrases like "Yet". You A) mischaracterized the point of my post, and B) linked (again) Pidcock to my comments.

I was merely pointing out that bikehandling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo. It is the inability to correctly judge their limits, wherever those limits may lie.

Do bang on. Or maybe not.
Best not.

"...bikehandling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo".

Wut?

People don't crash themselves out when solo because of a lack of bike-handling skills? It happens in so many scenarios I don't know where to start listing them. Descending, cornering, riding on cobbles, gravel, other loose surfaces, riding in the wet...all can be solo or not. Not being able to judge your own limits isn't a bike-handling problem? Of course it's a bike handling problem, it's literally the defining component of a bike-handling problem.

If anyone wants to respond to my actual original post about Remco, I'm game to discuss it. The Pidcock thing was a Red Herring type of logical fallacy. Always causes threads to go haywire.

 

[proffate]

Let's not forget that Pidcock crashed in recon meaning that he should have had little motivation to take any kind of risk. IOW he would have been leaving a larger margin for error, and he still overshot this larger margin. This doesn't support the idea that he knew exactly how much risk he was taking.

FWIW although I rate Pidcock at the top of road bike descenders in the pro peloton, he did take some unnecessary risks in the MSR descent such as crowding MVDP before passing him, which nearly came back to bite him when MVDP unexpectedly modified his line in a corner. I think this points to high skills but questionable judgment.

 

[Netserk]

Well, yes, anyone can spend beyond their means. But usually we judge those who have high means and still go broke (Nick Cage, sportspeople, etc) more harshly than those who have low income and are destitute. It seems like you're doing the opposite, forgiving the skills-rich and reprimanding the skills-poor.

I judge different things differently, even if they have some analogous aspects. But in this specific case, I don’t think I made any judgement at all?

PS: I also don’t judge the rich harsher than the poor.

 

[Salvarani]

In other words, Remco thinks he's better than he is.🤣

He is not the only one that believes that tbf.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Wut?

Even though you were originally not talking about Pidcock, you have since made it clear you think he is a far superior bikehandler, so let's just go with that example. Given your "wut?" response, can you explain to me how Pidcock crashes as frequently, or even more frequently than Evenepoel when riding solo, since you are so amazed by my post? If crashing when riding solo is a direct result of bike handling skills and NOT (as i said) pushing your own limits, then Pidcock should crash far less often.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

This is not necessarily true, though… An integral part of being a good bike handler is among other things, to predict where one’s limits lie which helps limit unintentional risk. And here lies a difference between an exceptional bike handler (Pidcock) and mediocre one (for them purpose of this discussion, let’s just stay with Remco😁 ). While Pidcock knows he’s taking the risk which may end badly (and sometimes it does), Remco thinks he’s playing it safe and still it ends badly…

Nonsense. Evenepoel takes risks just as much as anybody else relative to his abilities when victory is concerned. There are no stories of Evenepoel constantly crashing when he is on training rides, which is when he would actually not take risks and plays it safe.

In other words, Remco thinks he's better than he is.🤣

Everybody who crashes by his own fault, thinks he's better than he is. Be it Van der Poel or Jay Vine.

 

[red_flanders]

Even though you were originally not talking about Pidcock, you have since made it clear you think he is a far superior bikehandler, so let's just go with that example. Given your "wut?" response, can you explain to me how Pidcock crashes as frequently, or even more frequently than Evenepoel when riding solo, since you are so amazed by my post? If crashing when riding solo is a direct result of bike handling skills and NOT (as i said) pushing your own limits, then Pidcock should crash far less often.

A Pidcock thread exists.

If you want to die on the Remco-is-a-better-bike-handler-than-Pidcock hill, I'll watch.

It's a worse take than even "...bike handling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo".

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

A Pidcock thread exists.

If you want to die on the Remco-is-a-better-bike-handler-than-Pidcock hill, I'll watch.

It's a worse take than even "...bike handling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo".

Sorry, can you please point out where i said Evenepoel is a better bikehandler than Pidcock? Because if anybody here is steering his arguments towards that conclusion, it's you. Furthermore i am not talking about Pidcock, i am using Pidcock as an example to prove you wrong.

But do bang on, right?

 

[johnymax]

A Pidcock thread exists.

If you want to die on the Remco-is-a-better-bike-handler-than-Pidcock hill, I'll watch.

It's a worse take than even "...bike handling skills are not the reason people crash when riding solo".

Sorry, i was assuming people on this forum would be able to read. Can you please point out where i said Evenepoel is a better bikehandler than Pidcock? Because if anybody here is steering his arguments towards that conclusion, it's you. Furthermore i am not talking about Pidcock, i am using Pidcock as an example to prove you wrong.

But do bang on, right?

I can help you both in this argument by saying Roglič is a better bike handler than Remco. Tell me if I'm being helpful. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Wvv]

This is not the kind of banging I prefer.

 

[Ripper]

This is not the kind of banging I prefer.

Lolz

 

[red_flanders]

Sorry, can you please point out where i said Evenepoel is a better bikehandler than Pidcock? Because if anybody here is steering his arguments towards that conclusion, it's you. Furthermore i am not talking about Pidcock, i am using Pidcock as an example to prove you wrong.

But do bang on, right?

I suggest finding someone else with whom to play this game. But I’m always up for some genuine discussion should you be interested. Cheers.

 

[ManicJack]

I suggest finding someone else with whom to play this game. But I’m always up for some genuine discussion should you be interested. Cheers.

This crap wants me to ask for a line through my name. 🙄

 

[bNator]

Nonsense. Evenepoel takes risks just as much as anybody else relative to his abilities when victory is concerned. There are no stories of Evenepoel constantly crashing when he is on training rides, which is when he would actually not take risks and plays it safe..

Ok but in this case, what would you say constitutes a good bike handler? Considering what was written here, it’s someone who can be fast without taking risks (and crashing). If that’s the criteria, then Remco is out as are many others. I would say being slow while crashing is bad bike handler and being fast while crashing or being reliable but slow(ish) is mediocre bike handler.

 

[ManicJack]

Ok but in this case, what would you say constitutes a good bike handler? Considering what was written here, it’s someone who can be fast without taking risks (and crashing). If that’s the criteria, then Remco is out as are many others. I would say being slow while crashing is bad bike handler and being fast while crashing or being reliable but slow(ish) is mediocre bike handler.

Why even engage in this nonsense?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Ok but in this case, what would you say constitutes a good bike handler? Considering what was written here, it’s someone who can be fast without taking risks (and crashing). If that’s the criteria, then Remco is out as are many others. I would say being slow while crashing is bad bike handler and being fast while crashing or being reliable but slow(ish) is mediocre bike handler.

The only point i was making, is that crashing or even crashing often, is not a metric to use when determining bike handling skills. Van der Poel crashes just as often as many other CX riders. There are even CX riders who crash less often than him. But the only better bike handler in the CX peloton, even crashes more often than him. Pidcock crashes quite frequentely, both on the road, CX as MTB. Just google Pidcock + crash. It's about the risks at your skill limits. That means a worse bikehandler who takes less risks, can crash less than an excellent bikehandler who rides like Evel Knievel.

As such, i never claimed that Evenepoel is a good or a bad bikehandler, or that he is better or worse than Pidcock.