Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

Great post, I would only say extend it to everyone, regardless of age. Parsing someone's comments like this for days, regardless of their age, really strikes me as bizarre.

I think some folks like to jump on Remco because he's so young, because that little whippersnapper has no right to speak for everyone! Well folks, he's a leader and will in all likelihood be a big champion, and he has the mentality of one now. Get used to it.

I honestly think it comes down to the lack of nuance in his view. Whether this is a fault of age (today) or the hubris that comes with celebritydom is up for debate.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If people are gonna be put on a pedestal I'm not inclined to hold them to lower standards. Which seems to be the standard, ironically enough.

It's got nothing to do with a pedestal, but with social skills, and you can' expect people with less education and a very peculiar life trajectory, to have better social skills. Hence, i wouldn't know why you would hold them to a higher standard. Just the same standard would be fine. But everything gets put under a microscope and making one stupid remark brands these guys for life. Or at least that's what some people would like. These people obviously never say or do anything stupid.

I honestly think it comes down to the lack of nuance in his view. Whether this is a fault of age (today) or the hubris that comes with celebritydom is up for debate.

Where did he lack nuance? He was spot on with his Groenewegen remarks. His tweet about the motorguy Alaphilippe crashed into was not needed, but people here (myself included) initially reacted in a similar way on the forum (check the race thread). Furthermore, he apologized to that guy personally, but that was not interesting enough to write articles about. Most of the things he's done or said, have been twister or pulled out of some context, like the time he "said he would win the Giro". The actual interview was very casual, and the interviewer asked him if he was going to win the Giro, so he had to laugh at the question saying he would do his best. Bam, Evenepoel the arrogant ***.

 

[Wvv]

Get well, Remco. We need you to make Pogacar less extraterrestrial.
(And to bring another dose of phenomenal racing to our beloved sport.)

 

[Extinction]

It's got nothing to do with a pedestal, but with social skills, and you can' expect people with less education and a very peculiar life trajectory, to have better social skills. Hence, i wouldn't know why you would hold them to a higher standard. Just the same standard would be fine. But everything gets put under a microscope and making one stupid remark brands these guys for life. Or at least that's what some people would like. These people obviously never say or do anything stupid.


Where did he lack nuance? He was spot on with his Groenewegen remarks.

I don't get the personal bitterness towards Groenewegen. The sport is rife with riskyness, human error can't be controlled, however the rules may try to regulate behavior. At 75 kph sprinting for the win whilst edging towards the barriers from the front and from behind, once in a while horror strikes. The only way to avoid this is to not have 75 kph sprints whilst edging towards the barriers. Groenewegen broke the rules with his move, but he is not an attempted murderer. Herein lies the lack of nuance.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't get the personal bitterness towards Groenewegen. The sport is rife with riskyness, human error can't be controlled, however the rules may try to regulate behavior. At 75 kph sprinting for the win whilst edging towards the barriers from the front and from behind, once in a while horror strikes. The only way to avoid this is to not have 75 kph sprints whilst edging towards the barriers. Groenewegen broke the rules with his move, but he is not an attempted murderer. Herein lies the lack of nuance.

Your post lacks nuance. Where did Evenepoel claim it was an attempted murder? Nowhere. But you read some social media, and now you're here making this joke post.

Poor Groenewegen, he did not mean for this to happen, after all, these are the circumstances.

Now replace Groenewegen with drunk driver, or with driver using his smartphone, and not Jakobsen being the victim, but someone close to you.

 

[Extinction]

Your post lacks nuance. Where did Evenepoel claim it was an attempted murder? Nowhere. But you read some social media, and now you're here making this joke post.

Poor Groenewegen, he did not mean for this to happen, after all, these are the circumstances.

Now replace Groenewegen with drunk driver, or with driver using his smartphone, and not Jakobsen being the victim, but someone close to you.

Groenewegen was drunk yes, but on competition, on the smartphone too, but that of the anarchy of a road race final sprint, however tragic the results may at times be.

But this is bike racing, so why make into a vilain , a parahia, what, under different circumstance, every cyclist, including Evenepoel could end up becoming?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Groenewegen was drunk yes, but on competition, on the smartphone too, but that of the anarchy of a road race final sprint, however tragic the results may at times be.

But this is bike racing, so why make into a villan what, under different circumstance, every cyclist, including Evenepoel could end up becoming?

I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over it, until it happens to you or someone close to you, family, a friend, a colleague. I think Evenepoel is entitled to his opinion considering he's talking about a teammate. I think he's entitled to not wanting to talk to Groenewegen.

"This is a bike race, these things happen". Just like "these things" happen in "real life". The analogy is quite fitting, Groenewegen knew there were risks involved making his manouvre, even if he didn't mean for it to happen. Someone driving a car on a public road, checking his celphone also knows there are risks and also doesn't want the consequences to be putting someone in a coma. So maybe you could try and relate to that, and then tell me where Evenepoel is lacking nuance. I'm also still waiting for your answer as to where Evenepoel claimed this was attempted murder. You probably heard someone mention this and Evenepoel in the same sentence and "assumed" this was what happened. Evenepoel said no such thing. Lefevere did. Evenepoel made a tweet they should suspend Groenewegen for life and that he should be ashamed. That tweet was later removed. And let me tell you, i myself said the same thing, and i remember Red Rick here, a mod (and Dutchman), also said the same thing. Maybe he still does. So maybe people hurling these false accusations should look to add some nuance? And understand that in that moment, somebody might say something in anger, overly emotional. But now there is suddenly more understanding for poor Groenewegen, than there is for those who respond emotionally to Groenewegen putting someone in a coma, risking his life and career. Nuance. Wonderful nuance.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Anyway, to calm things down a little, when are we gonna see him on the road in competition again? Anything before the Giro if he goes and is well/fit enough?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Anyway, to calm things down a little, when are we gonna see him on the road in competition again? Anything before the Giro if he goes and is well/fit enough?

He said Giro would be his first race of the season.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

He said Giro would be his first race of the season.

Coolio

 

[Extinction]

I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over it, until it happens to you or someone close to you, family, a friend, a colleague. I think Evenepoel is entitled to his opinion considering he's talking about a teammate. I think he's entitled to not wanting to talk to Groenewegen.

"This is a bike race, these things happen". Just like "these things" happen in "real life". The analogy is quite fitting, Groenewegen knew there were risks involved making his manouvre, even if he didn't mean for it to happen. Someone driving a car on a public road, checking his celphone also knows there are risks and also doesn't want the consequences to be putting someone in a coma. So maybe you could try and relate to that, and then tell me where Evenepoel is lacking nuance. I'm also still waiting for your answer as to where Evenepoel claimed this was attempted murder. You probably heard someone mention this and Evenepoel in the same sentence and "assumed" this was what happened. Evenepoel said no such thing. Lefevere did. Evenepoel made a tweet they should suspend Groenewegen for life and that he should be ashamed. That tweet was later removed. And let me tell you, i myself said the same thing, and i remember Red Rick here, a mod (and Dutchman), also said the same thing. Maybe he still does. So maybe people hurling these false accusations should look to add some nuance? And understand that in that moment, somebody might say something in anger, overly emotional. But now there is suddenly more understanding for poor Groenewegen, than there is for those who respond emotionally to Groenewegen putting someone in a coma, risking his life and career. Nuance. Wonderful nuance.

You can't compare driving a car, a civic activity, with a cycling race, which is a sanctioned war. Simple logic dictates a more nuanced understanding. And I put no such words in Evenepoels's mouth. Your assumption is missguided.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You can't compare driving a car, a civic activity, with a cycling race, which is a sanctioned war. Simple logic dictates a more nuanced understanding. And I put no such words in Evenepoels's mouth. Your assumption is missguided.

This is your quote, addressing Evenepoel's lack of nuance:
"Groenewegen broke the rules with his move, but he is not an attempted murderer. Herein lies the lack of nuance."

Cycling isn't sanctioned war. Your assumption is misguided. It being competitive does not make it ok to put others in danger or gambling with their lives. Life is competitive. You can very well compare it to a civic activity. There are rules, and breaking the rules, misjudging circumstances and putting others in danger can have serious consequences.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1371168270993268741

View: https://twitter.com/BraeckmanAnn/status/1371168270993268741

 

[Extinction]

This is your quote, addressing Evenepoel's lack of nuance:
"Groenewegen broke the rules with his move, but he is not an attempted murderer. Herein lies the lack of nuance."

Cycling isn't sanctioned war. Your assumption is misguided. It being competitive does not make it ok to put others in danger or gambling with their lives. Life is competitive. You can very well compare it to a civic activity. There are rules, and breaking the rules, misjudging circumstances and putting others in danger can have serious consequences.

My statement doesn't imply I think Evenepoel said that come on. No, cycling, like any competition, is a sanctioned war, with all the risks it entails.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

My statement doesn't imply I think Evenepoel said that come on. No, cycling, like any competition, is a sanctioned war, with all the risks it entails.

No matter how many times you repeat that, it won't make it true.

And yes, when you specifically mention his lack of nuance, and then you talk about attempted murder, saying therein lies the lack of nuance, that is exactly what you are implying. If not, that has to be the most ironic post i've read in a while, LACKING NUANCE.

 

[Netserk]

Boxers also threaten to sue their opponents whenever they get injured in a fight.

 

[Extinction]

No matter how many times you repeat that, it won't make it true.

And yes, when you specifically mention his lack of nuance, and then you talk about attempted murder, saying therein lies the lack of nuance, that is exactly what you are implying. If not, that has to be the most ironic post i've read in a while, LACKING NUANCE.

No you are the one that lacks nuance and discernment, as each of your posts makes painfully aware. And you dare to call yourself logic is your friend. Evenepoel's statement treats the situation as if we were dealing with an attempted murder (metaphorically speaking, difficult though this may be for you to grasp), rather than the unfortunate consequence of a poor decision made in the throws of competition.

By contrast, your reading of it (like Evenepoel's, which is basically a tribal response) is a black and white as it can be.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Boxers also threaten to sue their opponents whenever they get injured in a fight.

Riiiiight, this analogy would stick if Evenepoel/Jakobsen were mad at Groenewegen for beating him in the sprint. Boxing, in nature, is about inflicting damage on your adversery in order to win. Both parties know and agree with those terms. Cycling is about crossing the line first, in order to win. WTF.

Maybe if a boxer put some lead in his boxinggloves, in order to win. Something against the rules that would inflict injuries beyond what could realistically be expected from a normal boxing match. But i'm sure Extinction would agree, since that would be "in the spirit of competition" so that'd be totally cool.

No you are the one that lacks nuance and discernment, as each of your posts makes painfully aware. And you dare to call yourself logic is your friend. Evenepoel's statement treats the situation as if we were dealing with an attempted murder (metaphorically speaking, difficult though this may be for you to grasp), rather than the unfortunate consequence of a poor decision made in the throws of competition.

By contrast, your reading of it (like Evenepoel's, which is basically a tribal response) is a black and white as it can be.

Evenepoel's statement treats the situation as if somebody made a grave error which resulted in personal drama... which is also exactly what happened. Nobody is mad at Groenewegen for forgetting somebody's birthday, or for being a bad sport. You still don't quite seem to grasp that there is a huge range of faults one can make, and all of them come with their own set of consequences. Groenewegen is a sprinter, he knows the risks full well and what the consequences can be of crashing at high speed. He doesn't need to stop in order to ponder whether the outcome might be grave.

Nobody, not me, not Evenepoel, is treating this like attempted murder, or you could be damn sure the response would be a bit different from "not talking to Groenewegen". This case is as much an attempt at murder as a driver running over a pedestrian with his car because he was looking at his smartphone. He never meant to cause any harm, but he knew the rules and he knew the risks. Spare me your bullcrap about competition and nuance.

 

[Netserk]

Maybe if a boxer put some lead in his boxinggloves, in order to win. Something against the rules that would inflict injuries beyond what could realistically be expected from a normal boxing match. But i'm sure Extinction would agree, since that would be "in the spirit of competition" so that'd be totally cool.

More like making an illegal punch like too low or after the referee blows the whistle. Where it was a mistake, but somehow the organisers' setup made that result in heavy injury.

The point is that it isn't the same as normal traffic, and that while Groenewegen is responsible for the crash, the organisers are responsible for the extent of the damage. But somehow DG is blamed for that too.

 

[Extinction]

Riiiiight, this analogy would stick if Evenepoel/Jakobsen were mad at Groenewegen for beating him in the sprint. Boxing, in nature, is about inflicting damage on your adversery in order to win. Both parties know and agree with those terms. Cycling is about crossing the line first, in order to win. WTF.

Maybe if a boxer put some lead in his boxinggloves, in order to win. Something against the rules that would inflict injuries beyond what could realistically be expected from a normal boxing match. But i'm sure Extinction would agree, since that would be "in the spirit of competition" so that'd be totally cool.


Evenepoel's statement treats the situation as if somebody made a grave error which resulted in personal drama... which is also exactly what happened. Nobody is mad at Groenewegen for forgetting somebody's birthday, or for being a bad sport. You still don't quite seem to grasp that there is a huge range of faults one can make, and all of them come with their own set of consequences. Groenewegen is a sprinter, he knows the risks full well and what the consequences can be of crashing at high speed. He doesn't need to stop in order to ponder whether the outcome might be grave.

Nobody, not me, not Evenepoel, is treating this like attempted murder, or you could be damn sure the response would be a bit different from "not talking to Groenewegen". This case is as much an attempt at murder as a driver running over a pedestrian with his car because he was looking at his smartphone. He never meant to cause any harm, but he knew the rules and he knew the risks. Spare me your bullcrap about competition and nuance.

I very much get the seriousness of Groenwegen's fault, but deviating from your line in a sprint is not the same as running somebody over because you were texting on your smartphone. The analogy doesn't hold up. Driving is not bike racing, sorry. Looking at the unfotunate situation within the context of a competition makes arriving at categorical judgments much less straightforward. If this is what you mean by nuance bullcrap then I disagree.

 

[Bonimenier]

I very much get the seriousness of Groenwegen's fault, but deviating from your line in a sprint is not the same as running somebody over because you were texting on your smartphone. The analogy doesn't hold up. Driving is not bike racing, sorry. Looking at the unfotunate situation within the context of a competition makes arriving at categorical judgments much less straightforward. If this is what you mean by nuance bullcrap then I disagree.

It's not the same, you're right. The driver running someone over with the car because he was looking at his smartphone had no intent. Looking back, seeing another rider come up and deviating not once, but twice, before pushing him with your elbow looks much more like it's done with intent.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

More like making an illegal punch like too low or after the referee blows the whistle. Where it was a mistake, but somehow the organisers' setup made that result in heavy injury.

The point is that it isn't the same as normal traffic, and that while Groenewegen is responsible for the crash, the organisers are responsible for the extent of the damage. But somehow DG is blamed for that too.

Even without the screw up by UCI and the organization (and i completely agree they are to blame as well) the consequences could have been dramatic and fatal. Even with better boarding and a flat finish. There have been crashes in the peloton, with riders getting injured as badly or worse than Jakobsen, where the organization was not at fault, just a crash in a regular situation. So while UCI and ToP are also to blame, for me it doesn't serve as mitigating circumstances for Groenewegen's actions. What he did could have been fatal either way. The fact that the chances of it being fatal/dramatic are smaller in a flat sprint with decent boarding (would have been smaller had UCI/ToP done a better job), doesn't excuse Groenewegen imho. Maybe a good analogy here would be, for a cyclist getting ran off the road and hitting his head while wearing a helmet. Him wearing a helmet should not serve as an excuse to run him off the road. It ending badly because the helmet didn't protect the victim well enough should not serve as mitigating circumstances for the perpetrator.

Anyway, none of this should ever mean that Evenepoel should not be able to say what he said. If he doesn't want to talk to Groenewegen, or if he thinks Jakobsen should decide that for himself, that should be perfectly fine, regardless of what Groenewegen did. Even if Groenewegen simply stepped on his toes or winked at his girlfriend.

 

[Extinction]

It's not the same, you're right. The driver running someone over with the car because he was looking at his smartphone had no intent. Looking back, seeing another rider come up and deviating not once, but twice, before pushing him with your elbow looks much more like it's done with intent.

Well there is intent and there is intent. I remember some years ago Paolo Bettini, wearing the Quick-Step uniform, veered off his sprint line to win a stage of the Giro and was rightly disqualified. Fortunately nobody crashed in the no less dirty move, but the potential for disaster was there, while clearly Bettini was equally blinded by the prospect of victory as Groenwegen. Nothing more came of the incident, but only because nobody got hurt.

The point is that only the rider's actions are being considered in relation to the outcomes, without objectively noticing the inherent dangers of the sport or the contradictions involved in mounting tensions which drive up the revenues that perpetuate the show. Cycling, like all sport, is after all fundamentally a show buisness. None of this, I don't think, can be compared to an inattentive motorist texting on his smartphone. But anyone is free to disagree.

Of course it's no excuse for foul play either, any more than texting on a smartphone absolves a motorist from running over a pedestrian, but the contexts are so vastly different that further analogy between them isn't possible.

 

[spalco]

[snip]

I'm a little disturbed by how many people seem more offended about Evenepoel speaking out than about Groenewegen nearly killing a rival. And I don't even like Evenepoel.

Cognitive dissonance is one of the scariest drugs out there

I don't think that description is accurate as far as it concerns this forum (no idea what people say in belgian/dutch media). In my recollection people are/were very hard on Groenewegen, and rightfully so. But in the end it was a race incident, and I think he's been genuinely remorseful.
That the consequences were so dramatic shouldn't really change the way we look at the incident that caused the injuries.

And my objection to Evenepoel's comment wasn't so much the substance of what he said (of course he's entitled to talk or not talk to anybody he wants for whatever reason) but his assumption to be a spokesperson for everyone else on the team and particularly Jakobsen. I think it's on Jakobsen to speak for himself. Only he can decide to forgive Groenewegen or not and he doesn't need Remco to fight his fights.

I wasn't offended by Evenepoel's comments, but I was annoyed because I feel like it's not on him make such a declaration and because I think he should worry about himself for the time being.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't think that description is accurate as far as it concerns this forum (no idea what people say in belgian/dutch media). In my recollection people are/were very hard on Groenewegen, and rightfully so. But in the end it was a race incident, and I think he's been genuinely remorseful.
That the consequences were so dramatic shouldn't really change the way we look at the incident that caused the injuries.

And my objection to Evenepoel's comment wasn't so much the substance of what he said (of course he's entitled to talk or not talk to anybody he wants for whatever reason) but his assumption to be a spokesperson for everyone else on the team and particularly Jakobsen. I think it's on Jakobsen to speak for himself. Only he can decide to forgive Groenewegen or not and he doesn't need Remco to fight his fights.

I wasn't offended by Evenepoel's comments, but I was annoyed because I feel like it's not on him make such a declaration and because I think he should worry about himself for the time being.

And again, Evenepoel was asked a direct question in a lengthy interview, within a set context created by the interviewer on earlier statements by Caleb Ewan.

Furthermore Evenepoel doesn't act like the Spokesperson of the team or Jakobsen, he simply states what he thinks and feels. The tweet by the journalist is telling. The fact that you posted the Plugge story and not what Evenepoel actually said, also.