Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[houtdffan]

Well yeah, thats an interesting example you are mentioning there. I think in practice Roglic will still be the number one by far, but indeed they mentioned that they will use two co-leaders. Ah well, maybe it does make sense to make Evenepoel co-leader.

But somehow I have the feeling that with Vingegaard you can call him co-leader and still have him a bit lower in the hierarchy than his companion. With Evenepoel, well my gut feeling for now says that he doesn't understand how that would work.

Regarding Rog and Vingegard, both have their best finish as 2nd in the tour. Rog cannot say he is better at the tour than can Vingegard based upon past results

 

[red_flanders]

…

To me it seems that he understand tactics just fine. Would you explain please?

Maybe it would be better to drop it, nothing good coming from this line of discussion IMO. Not blaming you at all of course.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Let's see than, time will tell us more. I personally think there could be some trouble in the team, but maybe I'm wrong.

Agreed. Could be, but I don't think it's likely. I don't expect Evenepoel to be among the very best riders in this year's LBL. Somewhat risky prediction, I know.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

if you have one plan you are sunk. Good planning address a general conceptualized plan with variants based on how the riders are feeling. The problem with WCC is that there are no race radios which means you need to be able to communicate strategy on the fly and be flexible. The Belgian coach idiotically put all of his eggs in the Van Aert basket and did not account for potential issues.

When you do have race radios it’s easy to adapt in the fly but you still need to discuss attack points and strategies and scenarios based on how people feeling about their legs.

 

[tobydawq]

Regarding Rog and Vingegard, both have their best finish as 2nd in the tour. Rog cannot say he is better at the tour than can Vingegard based upon past results

Yes he can. Not every second place is the same.

 

[AlfaLum]

Regarding Rog and Vingegard, both have their best finish as 2nd in the tour. Rog cannot say he is better at the tour than can Vingegard based upon past results

Well If you dont mind I would like to consider more than just the highest result in the same race to establish a hierarchy. Roglic is a triple GT winner who also won almost every one week stage race he participated in during the last few years. Opposed to Vingegaard who hasnt topped the GC in any WT-race for now.

 

[tobydawq]

Well If you dont mind I would like to consider more than just the highest result in the same race to establish a hierarchy. Roglic is a triple GT winner who also won almost every one week stage race he participated in during the last few years. Opposed to Vingegaard who hasnt topped the GC in any WT-race for now.

Yeah, I agree completely. Even Danish media are a bit surprised that Vingegaard is apparently supposed to be on totally equal footing to Roglic in the Tour.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, I agree completely. Even Danish media are a bit surprised that Vingegaard is apparently supposed to be on totally equal footing to Roglic in the Tour.

Could be a smokescreen, could be the team has data we don't have.

 

[tobydawq]

Could be a smokescreen, could be the team has data we don't have.

Which data would that be?

Obviously, Vingegaard has good characteristics with top notch climbing skills, a decent sprint and a great ITT. But Roglic is better at all those things and is much tougher mentally.

 

[greyclouds]

Which data would that be?

Obviously, Vingegaard has good characteristics with top notch climbing skills, a decent sprint and a great ITT. But Roglic is better at all those things and is much tougher mentally.

In my view, it's most rewarding Vingegaard for the great Tour he had last year, taking the pressure out of Roglic, and a tactical move - this way Pogacar and any other contender will have to look at two Jumbo riders, instead of one. I'm assuming that inside the team there's a clear understanding that Roglic is plan A and Vingo plan B, which is absolutely normal.

Regarding JA / RE for LBL, the same thing can be said for QS - two players, two options, one plan A. The only doubt would be RE's teamwork compliance, as opposed to JV discipline, but enough has been said about this, and with all the WCC shambles going much further than him, I don't think he deserves the doubt and criticism to be carried on. If QS wants him to be an adult team player, and he pretty much has been when riding with them, treat him as one (which is not what the Belgium squad did).

 

[BlueRoads]

I think there are a lot of races where it makes sense to use Evenepoel as a leader or co-leader (like in Lombardia last year, although that didn't work out at all).
However in Liège I would be pretty p***ed as Alaphilippe if they made Evenepoel co-leader, because that's the race where Ala has been so close so many times now, and he's 29, while Evenepoel hasn't shown anything in LBL (I know it's a terrain that suits him, but he hasn't done it in this particular race so far), and is much younger. There are so many races in the calendar. I think it's fair to keep this one for Ala in the team for now. A current and two time world champion should have deserved this right.
And I think it would indeed not help him much here if he "only" had to cling himself to Pogacar's/ Roglic's wheel since both are likely to beat him in a direct sprint. Attacking earlier, as one of more tries of guys from other teams as well gives him a better chance in my opinion. He should at least not be tied because his team mate is up front.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Which data would that be?

Obviously, Vingegaard has good characteristics with top notch climbing skills, a decent sprint and a great ITT. But Roglic is better at all those things and is much tougher mentally.

We still have to wait and see if Roglic can handle Pogacar. Roglic couldn't in the Tour 2020. Without wasting time in a echelon stage, Pogacar would have been in the lead even before the time trial at the Planche des belles filles.

Roglic will be almost 33 during the Tour 2022. Pogacar is very young and keeps getting better. I don't think Roglic has a chance to beat Pogacar in the difficult mountainstages (Roglic could only beat Pogacar in the sprint at the top of a normal climb) . And in the TT Pogacar is at least as strong as Roglic (when TT in a grand Tour). The question is : what is the teamtactics of Jumbo ? Two leaders (Roglic and Vingegaard) who attack alternately ? I think Vingegaard will be a bit stronger (more climber) than Roglic in the high mountain. The best tactic for Jumbo would be let Roglic attack in the first ten days of the Tour. If Vingegaard is in top condition during the second half of the Tour, he can finish it.

 

[AlfaLum]

We still have to wait and see if Roglic can handle Pogacar. Roglic couldn't in the Tour 2020. Without wasting time in a echelon stage, Pogacar would have been in the lead even before the time trial at the Planche des belles filles.

Roglic will be almost 33 during the Tour 2022. Pogacar is very young and keeps getting better. I don't think Roglic has a chance to beat Pogacar in the difficult mountainstages (Roglic could only beat Pogacar in the sprint at the top of a normal climb) . And in the TT Pogacar is at least as strong as Roglic (when TT in a grand Tour). The question is : what is the teamtactics of Jumbo ? Two leaders (Roglic and Vingegaard) who attack alternately ? I think Vingegaard will be a bit stronger (more climber) than Roglic in the high mountain. The best tactic for Jumbo would be let Roglic attack in the first ten days of the Tour. If Vingegaard is in top condition during the second half of the Tour, he can finish it.

You are mentioning the echelons, but you don't mention the stage where Pogacar got back some cheap second immediately after that, which was probably because he was underestimated at the time. Obviously there is not one rider in the world who would get the benefit upfront against Pogacar. But if there is one guy that should come close it is definitely Roglic.

I would argue that the Tour 2020 they were more or less on par with each other. Then Tour 2021 is obviously impossible to estimate. Roglic has really really dominated multiple other GTs. He has really really dominated multiple stage races. He has beaten Pogacar in a duel in Basque, he has beaten Pogacar in other races. Roglic despite is age is also still improving from the looks of it. So compared to Vingegaard Roglic really deserves the benefit of the doubt. Basically as long as Pogacar is not on the startlist I would bet on Roglic for the win instantly in any stage race that includes climbing/punching/tting.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think there are a lot of races where it makes sense to use Evenepoel as a leader or co-leader (like in Lombardia last year, although that didn't work out at all).
However in Liège I would be pretty p***ed as Alaphilippe if they made Evenepoel co-leader, because that's the race where Ala has been so close so many times now, and he's 29, while Evenepoel hasn't shown anything in LBL (I know it's a terrain that suits him, but he hasn't done it in this particular race so far), and is much younger. There are so many races in the calendar. I think it's fair to keep this one for Ala in the team for now. A current and two time world champion should have deserved this right.
And I think it would indeed not help him much here if he "only" had to cling himself to Pogacar's/ Roglic's wheel since both are likely to beat him in a direct sprint. Attacking earlier, as one of more tries of guys from other teams as well gives him a better chance in my opinion. He should at least not be tied because his team mate is up front.

Maybe you should start a petition with the other teams to let Alaphilippe win.

In other words: lol

 

[TomBonnen2005]

I really don't see the added value of this debate one week after the start of the season...

Quick Step will probably have this discussion the week before the race but before that :

1. They'll have a better view on the level of Remco and Julian based on Tirreno and Basque country
2. They'll be able to experiment their Remco-attacks-Julian-controls strategy during la Fleche Wallone

Also Julian will definitively be the protected rider since the team doesn't know anything about Remco's capacity to perform on 230+km races. He only finished 3 races above 230km in his career, all in 2021, without convincing results. We can argue that 2021 was a transition year but still you need some guarantees to put a 22yo rider as leader on a monument.

Until then Remco has 5 races to convince his team and Julian that he has the engine to win a race like LBL.

And if it's the case, Julian can only benefit from it:

• If Remco goes alone, Julian can follow his opponents
• If an opponent attacks, Remco can follow without relaying and then counter
• If they're both part of a very select group without the fast guys, Remco can make sure the fast guys never come back

 

[red_flanders]

Maybe you should start a petition with the other teams to let Alaphilippe win.

In other words: lol

So many better responses were possible.

I really don't see the added value of this debate one week after the start of the season...

Quick Step will probably have this discussion the week before the race but before that :

1. They'll have a better view on the level of Remco and Julian based on Tirreno and Basque country
2. They'll be able to experiment their Remco-attacks-Julian-controls strategy during la Fleche Wallone

Also Julian will definitively be the protected rider since the team doesn't know anything about Remco's capacity to perform on 230+km races. He only finished 3 races above 230km in his career, all in 2021, without convincing results. We can argue that 2021 was a transition year but still you need some guarantees to put a 22yo rider as leader on a monument.

Until then Remco has 5 races to convince his team and Julian that he has the engine to win a race like LBL.

And if it's the case, Julian can only benefit from it:

• If Remco goes alone, Julian can follow his opponents
• If an opponent attacks, Remco can follow without relaying and then counter
• If they're both part of a very select group without the fast guys, Remco can make sure the fast guys never come back

Look, here’s one!

 

[AlfaLum]

I really don't see the added value of this debate one week after the start of the season...

Quick Step will probably have this discussion the week before the race but before that :

1. They'll have a better view on the level of Remco and Julian based on Tirreno and Basque country
2. They'll be able to experiment their Remco-attacks-Julian-controls strategy during la Fleche Wallone

Also Julian will definitively be the protected rider since the team doesn't know anything about Remco's capacity to perform on 230+km races. He only finished 3 races above 230km in his career, all in 2021, without convincing results. We can argue that 2021 was a transition year but still you need some guarantees to put a 22yo rider as leader on a monument.

Until then Remco has 5 races to convince his team and Julian that he has the engine to win a race like LBL.

And if it's the case, Julian can only benefit from it:

• If Remco goes alone, Julian can follow his opponents
• If an opponent attacks, Remco can follow without relaying and then counter
• If they're both part of a very select group without the fast guys, Remco can make sure the fast guys never come back

The added value is of course that we have something to do in these days were no cycling is on the television! Obviously we are hyped as hell now that the season has started so we need something to debate about. Having a debate with the Remco idolizers is always an easy one to trigger.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So many better responses were possible.

Look, here’s one!

So many better responses were possible. Look, i already made many of those cases in previous posts on the previous bazillion pages!

Her post was basically a sob story to please put all the team's eggs in Julian's basket, against common sense, against the team's philosphy. Rather lose than win with another rider than Alaphilippe because he's been close so many times and he's getting old. With that mindset you could apply for Vanthourenhout's job as national coach of Belgium.

No offense to Blueroads, i like her a lot, but that post was just not to be taken seriously.

And pretty ironic you would point at my post as "low effort" with a post that is even worse. Maybe direct such remarks towards recurring offenders, i think i have made ample arguments in previous posts as to why the idea was, lacking a better word, dumb. I think there are few posters on the forum who generally speaking take as much time to argue their opinion as i do.

 

[red_flanders]

So many better responses were possible. Look, i already made many of those cases in previous posts on the previous bazillion pages!

Her post was basically a sob story to please put all the team's eggs in Julian's basket, against common sense, against the team's philosphy. Rather lose than win with another rider than Alaphilippe because he's been close so many times and he's getting old. With that mindset you could apply for Vanthourenhout's job as national coach of Belgium.

No offense to Blueroads, i like her a lot, but that post was just not to be taken seriously.

And pretty ironic you would point at my post as "low effort" with a post that is even worse. Maybe direct such remarks towards recurring offenders, i think i have made ample arguments in previous posts as to why the idea was, lacking a better word, dumb. I think there are few posters on the forum who generally speaking take as much time to argue their opinion as i do.

There's just no need to be an a-hole.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

There's just no need to be an a-hole.

Then don't be. I'm sure Blueroads is a big girl capable of either fighting her own battles and putting me in my place in case she deems it necessary or either ignore or put it in perspective against previous posts.

 

[Oldermanish]

if you have one plan you are sunk. Good planning address a general conceptualized plan with variants based on how the riders are feeling. The problem with WCC is that there are no race radios which means you need to be able to communicate strategy on the fly and be flexible. The Belgian coach idiotically put all of his eggs in the Van Aert basket and did not account for potential issues.

When you do have race radios it’s easy to adapt in the fly but you still need to discuss attack points and strategies and scenarios based on how people feeling about their legs.

The use of race radios and the expanded authority the DS has also proves to be a liability in the actual teamwork concept, IMO. Riders have more pressure and accountability that becomes a negative. If you only do what the DS directs; you stay employed. If you want to expand your horizons and take an opportunity for a win that normally would be considered a "team win" you can be judged as selfish.
Races without wattage and radios could be a more interesting twist than gravel sections. You could still maintain a comm line for all riders to deal with safety, approaching hazards, etc but limit the management factor. Riders should know how to read a race as much as push the pedals. That is the heart of the sport from my very old perspective.

 

[red_flanders]

Then don't be. I'm sure Blueroads is a big girl capable of either fighting her own battles and putting me in my place in case she deems it necessary or either ignore or put it in perspective against previous posts.

I get it. You don't like push back. You're a great poster, there's just no need to be mocking people.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I get it. You don't like push back. You're a great poster, there's just no need to be mocking people.

Please take it to the "Logic-is-your-friend discussion thread".

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

You are mentioning the echelons, but you don't mention the stage where Pogacar got back some cheap second immediately after that, which was probably because he was underestimated at the time. Obviously there is not one rider in the world who would get the benefit upfront against Pogacar. But if there is one guy that should come close it is definitely Roglic.

I would argue that the Tour 2020 they were more or less on par with each other. Then Tour 2021 is obviously impossible to estimate. Roglic has really really dominated multiple other GTs. He has really really dominated multiple stage races. He has beaten Pogacar in a duel in Basque, he has beaten Pogacar in other races. Roglic despite is age is also still improving from the looks of it. So compared to Vingegaard Roglic really deserves the benefit of the doubt. Basically as long as Pogacar is not on the startlist I would bet on Roglic for the win instantly in any stage race that includes climbing/punching/tting.

The cheap seconds stage.... Well, that day some people thougt this was a gift of Roglic for "his friend" Pogacar. But at the end of the Tour, it was obvious Pogacar was the better climber and TT-rider. I think Roglic was not able to follow Pogacar that day.

 

[Blanco]

The cheap seconds stage.... Well, that day some people thougt this was a gift of Roglic for "his friend" Pogacar. But at the end of the Tour, it was obvious Pogacar was the better climber and TT-rider. I think Roglic was not able to follow Pogacar that day.

Apart from that TT, he was not better at anything. That TT though, was out of this world...