Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Wvv]

I think that Alaphilippe is only happy if he is the first man in the hierarchy. And I think he deserves that without belittling Evenepoel. Similar to having Roglic start as the real captain compared to Vingegaard or Pogacar to Hirschi.

Unless Ala doesn't show great form in the races before, I think he'll always be the first man. Doesn't mean the lieutenant should sit tight and only do helper's work. As Logic' explained, Alaphilippe could benefit a lot when the team (and certainly Remco) puts pressure on opponents by riding agressively.

Just like van Aert was last year?

Thanks for bringing that up. Belgium lost that race because they decided to go with a ridiculously restricted plan.

 

[AlfaLum]

Unless Ala doesn't show great form in the races before, I think he'll always be the first man. Doesn't mean the lieutenant should sit tight and only do helper's work. As Logic' explained, Alaphilippe could benefit a lot when the team (and certainly Remco) puts pressure on opponents by riding agressively.


Thanks for bringing that up. Belgium lost that race because they decided to go with a ridiculously restricted plan.

As I said before, I am not saying that Evenepoel should do domestique duties by racing at the front of the peloton and controlling everything. I am saying that every move that Evenepoel makes in Liege should be with Alaphilippe in mind. So only if it benefits Alaphilippe there should be an attack from Evenepoel. For me that is not a joint-leadership, that is using your team-mates in a way that is the most efficient. Quick-step should start those races with multiple tactical plans, but always with Evenepoel a step lower in the hierarchy than Alaphilippe.

And I also still maintain that the sending a team-mate up the road tactic is just way less effective in the Ardennes than it is in the Flanders Classics.

 

[Bonimenier]

This must be pretty embarrassing for Alfalum

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Let's solve this argument.

If Quickstep wants to give a second leader to Alaphilippe in the Liege it should be Fausto Masnada as he showed on Lombardia 2021 with an unforgettable performance leading Quickstep.

However, if Remco is not being sent to Tour de Romandie (where he would dominate) and instead goes to Liege, and he feels good and wants to attack, I don't understand how this is a problem for Quickstep.

To have remco or (ideally) Fausto in the front is good for Alaphilippe.

I don't think Remco showed anything to suggest he is good enough to win Liege like Alaphilippe and Fausto did. But I understand why the team want to test him there, because in future he could win

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

As I said before, I am not saying that Evenepoel should do domestique duties by racing at the front of the peloton and controlling everything. I am saying that every move that Evenepoel makes in Liege should be with Alaphilippe in mind. So only if it benefits Alaphilippe there should be an attack from Evenepoel. For me that is not a joint-leadership, that is using your team-mates in a way that is the most efficient. Quick-step should start those races with multiple tactical plans, but always with Evenepoel a step lower in the hierarchy than Alaphilippe.

And I also still maintain that the sending a team-mate up the road tactic is just way less effective in the Ardennes than it is in the Flanders Classics.

We're not talking about a random teammate, we're talking about Evenepoel, with the assumption that he will be in good form. If he isn't, nobody will oppose the idea of him fetching bottles instead. When they send Evenepoel up the road at a moment when everything starts falling apart and every team has to assess their situation, alarmbells and sirens go off all over the place. That means rivals have a choice to start working immediately full gas, or ride for 2nd place. We can make fun of Evenepoel during the WCC, but him going in the attack and the Italians missing the break, was basically enough to knock them out.

The presence of Evenepoel is in favor of Alaphilippe and the other way around just as well. Alaphilippe may not be Van der Poel or Van Aert in terms of sprinting, but he's still enough of a threat that nobody wants to drag him along for a free ride. That means chasers will think twice about going all in after Evenepoel. On the other hand, they know they can't give Evenepoel as much as 30 seconds so they'll have to drag Alaphilippe along if they still want a chance to win.

The premise you are insisting on is completely irrelevant as well as ultimately imaginary. What does it matter that Alaphilippe is supposed to be "super-leader" above Evenepoel, when they would both race differently and when Evenepoel does his thing and is successful, he would win. He's not going to squeeze his brakes 5m from the finish, waiting for Alaphilippe to win the sprint.

Besides, if Alaphilippe is strong enough to drop all rivals, as you suggest, he is free to close the gap in case Evenepoel would be up ahead.

 

[hayneplane]

True. Problem with LBL is that both Alaphilippe and Evenepoel have to finish alone to win. Eventhough Alaphillipe is pretty fast, I don't see him winning sprints against Pogacar, MVP and Pidcock (nor would it be easy against Roglic or even Valverde). The new LBL parcour with the flat last couple of k's actually doesn't suit Alaphippe as much as the old parcour did. Hence it would be smart to use both Remco and Alaphilippe to either be able to finish alone or at least have the faster finishers like Pogacar wear themselves down prior to the sprint by having to do the chasework.

I for one, have my eyes on pidcock for this years LBL.

Don't underestimate Ala on a flat finish as he has won a bunch sprint in Tirreno-Adriatico before. He would be at least on a par with Roglic and Pogacar but slower than Pidcock, WVA and MVDP usually depending on freshness and positioning.

 

[AlfaLum]

We're not talking about a random teammate, we're talking about Evenepoel, with the assumption that he will be in good form. If he isn't, nobody will oppose the idea of him fetching bottles instead. When they send Evenepoel up the road at a moment when everything starts falling apart and every team has to assess their situation, alarmbells and sirens go off all over the place. That means rivals have a choice to start working immediately full gas, or ride for 2nd place. We can make fun of Evenepoel during the WCC, but him going in the attack and the Italians missing the break, was basically enough to knock them out.

The presence of Evenepoel is in favor of Alaphilippe and the other way around just as well. Alaphilippe may not be Van der Poel or Van Aert in terms of sprinting, but he's still enough of a threat that nobody wants to drag him along for a free ride. That means chasers will think twice about going all in after Evenepoel. On the other hand, they know they can't give Evenepoel as much as 30 seconds so they'll have to drag Alaphilippe along if they still want a chance to win.

The premise you are insisting on is completely irrelevant as well as ultimately imaginary. What does it matter that Alaphilippe is supposed to be "super-leader" above Evenepoel, when they would both race differently and when Evenepoel does his thing and is successful, he would win. He's not going to squeeze his brakes 5m from the finish, waiting for Alaphilippe to win the sprint.

Besides, if Alaphilippe is strong enough to drop all rivals, as you suggest, he is free to close the gap in case Evenepoel would be up ahead.

It matters. Because what are you going to do when Vingegaard, Woods, Schachmann and Hirschi move along with Evenepoel for example? What are you going to do when not Evenepoel but Vlasov and Pidcock are on the attack with Evenepoel being the only team mate that Alaphilippe still has with him. Thats where a predetermined hierarchy becomes important. And thats where I think that Evenepoel has to know in advance that he is a level below Alaphilippe in the hierarchy.

Maybe Evenepoel will be able to make it a different kind of race. But usually there are still too many domestiques left after the Redoute and they are able to control the race until the Roche aux Faucons. So I think the chance that Alaphilippe can really profit from a team mate is less than it would be in the races in Vlaanderen.

Anyhow, i am starting to dislike the discussion with this strange interferences of people who are not even part of the discussion, so this is where the discussion ends for me.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I think the expectation is that he will blow the doors off anyone who tries to follow him and he will be upfront alone. Then the others take time to recover, organize and chase while Ala is sitting comfortably. While good in theory, it cannot account for a limpet like Colbrelli or WCC moves as seen in 2021

 

[Blanco]

I think when a 22 year-old, who has a whole career ahead, state that his main goal (not wish, but main goal!) is to win the race that his fellow senior teammate, double World Champion, already stated as his main goal, it doesn't sounds good!
Remco already had couple of problems with teammates (Almeida, Van Aert...), and Alaphilippe of course knows that, so to avoid any sort of confusion I think Ala will want clear roles for everyone before the start of the race.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It matters. Because what are you going to do when Vingegaard, Woods, Schachmann and Hirschi move along with Evenepoel for example? What are you going to do when not Evenepoel but Vlasov and Pidcock are on the attack with Evenepoel being the only team mate that Alaphilippe still has with him. Thats where a predetermined hierarchy becomes important. And thats where I think that Evenepoel has to know in advance that he is a level below Alaphilippe in the hierarchy.

Maybe Evenepoel will be able to make it a different kind of race. But usually there are still too many domestiques left after the Redoute and they are able to control the race until the Roche aux Faucons. So I think the chance that Alaphilippe can really profit from a team mate is less than it would be in the races in Vlaanderen.

Anyhow, i am starting to dislike the discussion with this strange interferences of people who are not even part of the discussion, so this is where the discussion ends for me.

I understand. Both your points. I guess to me it doesn't make sense for anyone to attack before Evenepoel that could be even remotely considered a threat. I'm not seeing Vlasov attack from further out than Evenepoel. You've been discussing how Evenepoel has not proven enough, and now you are arguing Pidcock to be some sort of special threat. What exactly has Pidcock proven? He has 1 pro victory, a 1.pro race. Evenepoel has multiple of those and better. I think if those guys would attack, that Evenepoel would simply not let them go and move with them, like he did with Skujins in CSS or with Cosnefroy in the WCC. And sure, it's possible that he gets someone on his coattails he can't drop, like Colbrelli at the Euros. And it's also possible Alaphilippe doesn't win even if Evenepoel rides strictly for him. So what.
It's also possible to bait them. If Evenepoel is up front with Hirschi, Pidcock and/or Schachmann while Alaphilippe is in the chasing group, there is nothing preventing Evenepoel from saying "ok guys, feel free to ride, but Alaphilippe is in the next group, so i'm not riding". Just like Masnada in Lombardia. That way he either has them doing the work and setting him up for an attack, or they all wait for the group with Alaphilippe. Also, there is some responsibility on Alaphilippe himself. If he sees certain guys go after or move along with Evenepoel, he has to follow himself.

 

[Blanco]

Like Alfalum who thinks Alaphilippe should be only leader. Because that has worked wonders for Van Aert at Jumbo or at the WCC for Belgium.

However, it did wonders for Alaphilippe himself in National team...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think when a 22 year-old, who has a whole career ahead, state that his main goal (not wish, but main goal!) is to win the race that his fellow senior teammate, double World Champion, already stated as his main goal, it doesn't sounds good!
Remco already had couple of problems with teammates (Almeida, Van Aert...), and Alaphilippe of course knows that, so to avoid any sort of confusion I think Ala will want clear roles for everyone before the start of the race.

Except that the interview was not with Evenepoel, but with his team manager and trainer saying that Liège is his big goal... hmmm.

 

[Blanco]

Except that the interview was not with Evenepoel, but with his team manager and trainer saying that Liège is his big goal... hmmm.

"When you ask Evenepoel which race he absolutely wants to win in 2022, he answers 'Liège'."

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

"When you ask Evenepoel which race he absolutely wants to win in 2022, he answers 'Liège'."

Yes, my point was not that Evenepoel himself doesn't want to ride Liège, but that it's clearly a decision that is made with team management and everybody being onboard. I'm sure if Lefevere either thought he was either not ready for it, or if it were an Alaphilippe exclusive party, he would tell Remco to pipe down.

 

[Blanco]

Let's see than, time will tell us more. I personally think there could be some trouble in the team, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Andre]

my money is on Remco to win LBL

 

[AlfaLum]

I understand. Both your points. I guess to me it doesn't make sense for anyone to attack before Evenepoel that could be even remotely considered a threat. I'm not seeing Vlasov attack from further out than Evenepoel. You've been discussing how Evenepoel has not proven enough, and now you are arguing Pidcock to be some sort of special threat. What exactly has Pidcock proven? He has 1 pro victory, a 1.pro race. Evenepoel has multiple of those and better. I think if those guys would attack, that Evenepoel would simply not let them go and move with them, like he did with Skujins in CSS or with Cosnefroy in the WCC. And sure, it's possible that he gets someone on his coattails he can't drop, like Colbrelli at the Euros. And it's also possible Alaphilippe doesn't win even if Evenepoel rides strictly for him. So what.
It's also possible to bait them. If Evenepoel is up front with Hirschi, Pidcock and/or Schachmann while Alaphilippe is in the chasing group, there is nothing preventing Evenepoel from saying "ok guys, feel free to ride, but Alaphilippe is in the next group, so i'm not riding". Just like Masnada in Lombardia. That way he either has them doing the work and setting him up for an attack, or they all wait for the group with Alaphilippe. Also, there is some responsibility on Alaphilippe himself. If he sees certain guys go after or move along with Evenepoel, he has to follow himself.

Well first of all Pidcock doesnt have a team mate that has constantly proven he can deliver in the biggest hilly one day races over the past few years. But if Pidcock would have Alaphilippe as a team mate I would also argue that he would have to be below Alaphilippe in the hierarchy. I am not using Pidcocks name because I consider him a better rider than Evenepoel, he is just one of the examples that might have an influence on how Quick-step should race their race.

So again, my point is not that Evenepoel is a *** rider. It is also not that there is not a single chance that he can win. It is just that I think that Quickstep would do well to let everybody in the team know upfront what the hierarchy looks like, with the specific hierarchy being:

1. Alaphilippe
2. Evenepoel

Anyhow. I still think that even for a guy like Evenepoel it will be very hard to dismantle the race pre-Roche Aux Faucons. The Redoute is very steep and probably suits other riders better. So he would have to do it on that very nasty outlier immediately after the Redoute or on that uphill part in Sprimont. But again most of the times there are to many domestiques in the peloton at that point in the race, and those domestiques are of a higher quality than the once that were left at CSS or in Poland.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Well first of all Pidcock doesnt have a team mate that has constantly proven he can deliver in the biggest hilly one day races over the past few years. But if Pidcock would have Alaphilippe as a team mate I would also argue that he would have to be below Alaphilippe in the hierarchy. I am not using Pidcocks name because I consider him a better rider than Evenepoel, he is just one of the examples that might have an influence on how Quick-step should race their race.

So again, my point is not that Evenepoel is a *** rider. It is also not that there is not a single chance that he can win. It is just that I think that Quickstep would do well to let everybody in the team know upfront what the hierarchy looks like, with the specific hierarchy being:

1. Alaphilippe
2. Evenepoel

Anyhow. I still think that even for a guy like Evenepoel it will be very hard to dismantle the race pre-Roche Aux Faucons. The Redoute is very steep and probably suits other riders better. So he would have to do it on that very nasty outlier immediately after the Redoute or on that uphill part in Sprimont. But again most of the times there are to many domestiques in the peloton at that point in the race, and those domestiques are of a higher quality than the once that were left at CSS or in Poland.

If push comes to shove and they need to pick one over the other, i think that will be clear unless form of the day or how the race unfolded decides otherwise. However, they should not go into the race as you said, with everything Evenepoel does in order to have Alaphilippe win.

 

[johnymax]

This must be pretty embarrassing for Alfalum

Why? Not at all. Just because he doesn't worship Remco in the Remco thread, that doesn't mean he doesn't have legit arguments to explain a different opinion than most in here.

As I said before, I am not saying that Evenepoel should do domestique duties by racing at the front of the peloton and controlling everything. I am saying that every move that Evenepoel makes in Liege should be with Alaphilippe in mind. So only if it benefits Alaphilippe there should be an attack from Evenepoel. For me that is not a joint-leadership, that is using your team-mates in a way that is the most efficient. Quick-step should start those races with multiple tactical plans, but always with Evenepoel a step lower in the hierarchy than Alaphilippe.

And I also still maintain that the sending a team-mate up the road tactic is just way less effective in the Ardennes than it is in the Flanders Classics.

Anyway, I am on the pro Remco side on this one. You said it doesn't seem a fair hierarchy to put Remco as a co-leader. Fair or not fair, in the end only the result matter. If it's the right tactic to give their team the biggest chance to take the win, then that's the one to use. You mentioned Roglič and Pogačar as deserving undisputed leaders of their teams. Well, look what Jumbo Visma has done. They named Vingegaard as a co-leader with Roglič for the upcoming Tour de France. Is it fair? I don't think it is. We all know who is by far the bigger name of the two. But they decided to use a different tactic, at least on paper, when going against the monster that is Pogačar. Then again, they had also planned a three pronged attack at the Tour before. Now that was shockingly unfair lol

But don't worry. Alaphilippe will always be plan A in the Ardennes and will remain for quite some time.

 

[AlfaLum]

Why? Not at all. Just because he doesn't worship Remco in the Remco thread, that doesn't mean he doesn't have legit arguments to explain a different opinion than most in here.


Anyway, I am on the pro Remco side on this one. You said it doesn't seem a fair hierarchy to put Remco as a co-leader. Fair or not fair, in the end only the result matter. If it's the right tactic to give their team the biggest chance to take the win, then that's the one to use. You mentioned Roglič and Pogačar as deserving undisputed leaders of their teams. Well, look what Jumbo Visma has done. They named Vingegaard as a co-leader with Roglič for the upcoming Tour de France. Is it fair? I don't think it is. We all know who is by far the bigger name of the two. But they decided to use a different tactic, at least on paper, when going against the monster that is Pogačar. Then again, they had also planned a three pronged attack at the Tour before. Now that was shockingly unfair lol

But don't worry. Alaphilippe will always be plan A in the Ardennes and will remain for quite some time.

Well yeah, thats an interesting example you are mentioning there. I think in practice Roglic will still be the number one by far, but indeed they mentioned that they will use two co-leaders. Ah well, maybe it does make sense to make Evenepoel co-leader.

But somehow I have the feeling that with Vingegaard you can call him co-leader and still have him a bit lower in the hierarchy than his companion. With Evenepoel, well my gut feeling for now says that he doesn't understand how that would work.

 

[Big Doopie]

I am actually confused at this debate.

If Remco attacks early he is in fact working for alaphilippe. Or more exactly the team. He forces others to chase or hesitate to chase. Makes no difference whether you formally announce that Ala is the team leader or not. The best team tactics are to force opponents to react. If they hesitate too much, Remco (if on superb form) TTs to the win. If they react in time, they will use up energy, improving ala’s chances when he attacks or sprints. They are two different skill sets that should be used. Having Remco tow a group containing Ala as close as possible to the finish only means that rivals will be as fresh as Ala. makes little sense.

As for Ala and Remco. They have done this precise tactic together before. The one day race last season where Remco got a gap and Ala told him to go from 60k out and that they would cover behind. It came really close to coming back on Remco. And had it, either Ala or asgreen would have won. In fact asgreen having done no work in the chase peeled off for 2nd place even so if I remember correctly.

I mean this is cycling 101 folks.

 

[Red Rick]

The one thing about LBL is it's probably a bit hard for Alaphilippe to benefit from Evenepoel there. It'll surely increase QS chance of winning, but I doubt Alaphilippe is better off.

 

[Bonimenier]

Why? Not at all. Just because he doesn't worship Remco in the Remco thread, that doesn't mean he doesn't have legit arguments to explain a different opinion than most in here.

In the posts above mine, it was embarrasing how little he seemed to understand about tactics in cycling. I have no problem with his opinion that Alaphilippe should be the number one option.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I am actually confused at this debate.

If Remco attacks early he is in fact working for alaphilippe. Or more exactly the team. He forces others to chase or hesitate to chase. Makes no difference whether you formally announce that Ala is the team leader or not. The best team tactics are to force opponents to react. If they hesitate too much, Remco (if on superb form) TTs to the win. If they react in time, they will use up energy, improving ala’s chances when he attacks or sprints. They are two different skill sets that should be used. Having Remco tow a group containing Ala as close as possible to the finish only means that rivals will be as fresh as Ala. makes little sense.

As for Ala and Remco. They have done this precise tactic together before. The one day race last season where Remco got a gap and Ala told him to go from 60k out and that they would cover behind. It came really close to coming back on Remco. And had it, either Ala or asgreen would have won. In fact asgreen having done no work in the chase peeled off for 2nd place even so if I remember correctly.

I mean this is cycling 101 folks.

Yep. It was Druivenkoers, but it was Honoré, not Asgreen (who was also present).

 

[Blanco]

In the posts above mine, it was embarrasing how little he seemed to understand about tactics in cycling. I have no problem with his opinion that Alaphilippe should be the number one option.

To me it seems that he understand tactics just fine. Would you explain please?