Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[tobydawq]

It would really help if you read my original post that specifically states that I am aware that riders aim for the Olympics now. But I guess people want to argue what they want to argue.

It’s like saying GP Plouay or San Sebastián or Strade or another recent race is as important as a monument or the Worlds. They are not. At least not yet. And arguably will never be unless they go to 260-270 kms.

In cycling tradition, lore and history the Olympic road race is simply not established like a monument and worlds.

We're never going to agree. I'm out of shape due to the off-season and don't have the endurance to argue better for my case so let's just bury it

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

As an American, I would choose Cycling Gold over any other 1-day race because every single American will be impressed. Maybe 5% of Americans will be impressed by any Monument, and I'm in it for the layman's glory.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

I think Britain would value a RR gold very highly. especially in 2012. I'm forever thankful to Vino!

 

[Big Doopie]

As an American, I would choose Cycling Gold over any other 1-day race because every single American will be impressed. Maybe 5% of Americans will be impressed by any Monument, and I'm in it for the layman's glory.

I agree with this. Though I think that 5% number is way high. Haha.

 

[Big Doopie]

We're never going to agree. I'm out of shape due to the off-season and don't have the endurance to argue better for my case so let's just bury it

All good. I think we may be kind of arguing different sides of the same coin. Btw I do not question the assessment that the Olympics mean a lot to the athlete/cyclist.

 

[Sciatic]

As an American, I would choose Cycling Gold over any other 1-day race because every single American will be impressed. Maybe 5% of Americans will be impressed by any Monument, and I'm in it for the layman's glory.

If you’re comparing Olympic gold to one day-races that might be true, but I think a Tour win will gather much more non-cycling fan attention. Olympic RR gold might be a bigger deal in some countries that don’t have a dominant presence in the summer Olympiad, but because the U.S. wins gobs of gold medals, especially golds in the highest profile Olympic sports (swimming, gymnastics, T&F), wining in niche sports (for Americans), whether it’s cycling or skeet shooting, don’t get much coverage. Not to mention that the medal-event inflation is getting ridiculous, most notably in swimming.

 

[Extinction]

If you’re comparing Olympic gold to one day-races that might be true, but I think a Tour win will gather much more non-cycling fan attention. Olympic RR gold might be a bigger deal in some countries that don’t have a dominant presence in the summer Olympiad, but because the U.S. wins gobs of gold medals, especially golds in the highest profile Olympic sports (swimming, gymnastics, T&F), wining in niche sports (for Americans), whether it’s cycling or skeet shooting, don’t get much coverage. Not to mention that the medal-event inflation is getting ridiculous, most notably in swimming.

Thus cycling is equal to skeet shooting in the US market.

 

[SHAD0W93]

No, they don't. The US relates to an Olympic champion, but not a Develdor or a Zaugg, who they could not care less about, because it knows not cycling. We are talking about epic and historical races versus something that came relatively late into significance, however important to the speculative interests. And, no offense, but the US is not a broad-based, grass roots cycling audience historically connected, while its different perspective on the Olympics is a product of the Cold (now Hot) War rivalry legacy, which explains the excessive attention given the Olympic champion that's out of proportion with European views.

It's been this way since Lemond, who wanted Olympic Gold at the boycotted Moscow games, in a way European cyclists at the time didn't (or at least did not see the Olympic RR, then a non- pro event, as being as significant to a cyclist's career). And while the Olympic RR has assumed greater prestige since becoming a pro event in 1996, in Europe it's not more important than the monuments or Worlds. So I can't agree with you here. I think in terms of perspective on such matters, Europe's has more gravity than that of the US.

Nobody cares if Zaugg or Develdor are at their race, especially the further they got while the former Olympic champion was always mentioned. Monument winner or not, you’re not remembered when you have had a small career.

And there is what I suspected. The USA is not steeped in cycling lore. And in the USA the Olympics is something the general populace understands. Lemond going into his career knew there were only certain races that would provide any notoriety at all:

The TDF
The Worlds
The Olympics (he was denied by the 1980 boycott)

Nothing else would matter.

No. The Olympic road race is not anywhere close in significance to cycling as the monuments or Worlds. For that matter, I only remember two “famous” pros who won it as an amateur, Kuiper and Grewal. Kuiper is much better known for his pro successes. And Grewal likely not because the Olympics were kind of the biggest thing he ever did, his pro career was largely free of any real successes.

And since pros competed, there is no history. Meanwhile I know and remember monument and Worlds winners for decades…

Any monument or Worlds would love to have the Olympic RR and TT podium. Just because 7 events have held doesn’t negate how many cyclists focused on getting a medal and what the final podiums were. Sure it doesn’t have the history in the pros compared to the other races in the cycling culture, but it is still a big deal and accomplishment.

 

[DaLong]

Remco relocating to Alicante in Spain for winter to avoid media distractions and the like. Handling the fame smartly so far...MvdP should just tag along and stay out of trouble since Mathieu likes that region too and they've trained together before.

Wish I could just relocate to beautiful coastal Spain to ride my bike right now...

Boom. Called it. Two of my favorite riders training together...awesome. For context, this is from Remco's strava, so he's the one taking the photo.

 

[Sciatic]

Thus cycling is equal to skeet shooting in the US market.

When it comes to Olympic medals and the attention garnered from the general public there’s not a lot of difference.

 

[Salvarani]

Lol Olympics for WOMEN’s football has ALWAYS been one of THE most important competitions because it was perhaps the greatest venue in the history of that sport.

Please tell me a pro mens footballer who wants to win the Olympics over the champions league or the worlds.

Lol. Thank you for proving my PRECISE point.

You said "pro footballer"... you didnt specify man for female. Female footballers are pros as well so are wrong. Thanks proving MY point that is one of the most important competitions.

And football has been in the Olympics since 1900 and was very prestigious to win for a long time historically. Lets not forget the EC only came around in the 1960s but has grown to become a bigger tournament. And the Olympics becoming age-restricted and more a semi-youth tournament, which we will get to.

I think you are also missing the part about it being a national tournament. It is not club football. You cant compare it to CL.

When it comes to the mens tournament today it is restricted by age. You can only have 3 players in the squad over the age of 23. Players like Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar have all participated for their country. Many players that have gone on to be stars have played in the Olympics. It is difficult to qualify and it is a relatively small tournament, when it comes to the amount of teams. Everyone does not get the chance.

And going back to my own country again, the gold medal from the 1948 Olympics is the only gold medal our country has won when it comes to the national team for the men in all national tournaments. Many, me included, would probably hold our silver medal in the WC in 1958 higher and even the bronze medal in 1994 higher but the fact is still there.

It is only the WC, EC and then the Olympics for us Europeans when it comes to tournaments for the national team traditionally. So on that stage, it is still a thing if you win it.

You can also look what it meant to Mexico when they beat Brazil in the 2012 final for example.

If you get the chance to participate in the Olympics as a footballer, Im sure most would like to win it or still get a medal. It is something that does mean a lot, especially on a national level.

 

[LucVdB]

I think rating these events has a lot to do with nationality/tradition. It understandable that Belgian/Dutch/Danish value spring classics higher while the Spanish rate Vuelta higher and of course the Italians will put much more emphasis on the Giro. That’s why we have the UCI ranking that attempts to cover all these sentiments and assign an objective value to these events…

Doesn't the UCI assign points to races in an attempt to steer the behaviour of the teams, to increase interest in races the teams are less interested in?

 

[Extinction]

You said "pro footballer"... you didnt specify man for female. Female footballers are pros as well so are wrong. Thanks proving MY point that is one of the most important competitions.

And football has been in the Olympics since 1900 and was very prestigious to win for a long time historically. Lets not forget the EC only came around in the 1960s but has grown to become a bigger tournament. And the Olympics becoming age-restricted and more a semi-youth tournament, which we will get to.

I think you are also missing the part about it being a national tournament. It is not club football. You cant compare it to CL.

When it comes to the mens tournament today it is restricted by age. You can only have 3 players in the squad over the age of 23. Players like Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar have all participated for their country. Many players that have gone on to be stars have played in the Olympics. It is difficult to qualify and it is a relatively small tournament, when it comes to the amount of teams. Everyone does not get the chance.

And going back to my own country again, the gold medal from the 1948 Olympics is the only gold medal our country has won when it comes to the national team for the men in all national tournaments. Many, me included, would probably hold our silver medal in the WC in 1958 higher and even the bronze medal in 1994 higher but the fact is still there.

It is only the WC, EC and then the Olympics for us Europeans when it comes to tournaments for the national team traditionally. So on that stage, it is still a thing if you win it.

You can also look what it meant to Mexico when they beat Brazil in the 2012 final for example.

If you get the chance to participate in the Olympics as a footballer, Im sure most would like to win it or still get a medal. It is something that does mean a lot, especially on a national level.

I think it's safe to say that before 1996, when Olympic cycling was a non-pro affair, the Olympic RR was not significant on the pro circuit and those who have been following the sport for longer tend to still see it as such. Whereas those who have watched cycling only from 1996 and after will tend to see the Olympic RR as among the most prestigious of pro events. And I think the pros today will view winning the Olympic RR as a major career goal. I don't believe, however, they would prefer Olympic Gold to the Rainbow Jersey or, given the unique character, legacy and fact that very few riders can win it, trade a gold medal for the Queen of Classics PR.

 

[Salvarani]

I think it's safe to say that before 1996, when Olympic cycling was a non-pro affair, the Olympic RR was not significant on the pro circuit and those who have been following the sport for longer tend to still see it as such. Whereas those who have watched cycling only from 1996 and after will tend to see the Olympic RR as among the most prestigious of pro events. And I think the pros today will view winning the Olympic RR as a major career goal. I don't believe, however, they would prefer Olympic Gold to the Rainbow Jersey or, given the unique character, legacy and fact that very few riders can win it, trade a gold medal for the Queen of Classics PR.

Winning the Olympic gold was always a big thing though. Maybe not amongst the pro riders, that could not participate. Of course, that would be their stance on it.

As an amateur the Olympic Gold was probably the biggest thing you could win, and many riders have gone from being an amateur to the pros at one point right? A few of the winners before 1996 had great careers after winning it.

I also think many more riders target it and wants to win it now. Just look at the winners-list since 1996 and up until now. Would they rather win an Olympic Gold than Worlds or a monument, probably not. That does not mean both cant be a huge thing, because of different aspects. Nationally it is a huge thing when someone wins a Olympic gold, in any sport, and in many countries that gets more notoriety than a win in another "big" race that the cycling community regards as a much more prestigious thing. Everything does need to be so black or white, as a lot of the dicussion tends to get on here.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Speaking of football, if Belgium win the World Cup will Kev beat Remco to Belgian Sports Personality of the Year?

 

[Andy schleck]

Speaking of football, if Belgium win the World Cup will Kev beat Remco to Belgian Sports Personality of the Year?

No. It will be courtois. He already gave to real Madrid the champions league.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

No. It will be courtois. He already gave to real Madrid the champions league.

Reckon that is enough to best Remco if Belgium have a poor World Cup?
Anyway I think I'll have to support Belgium because of Kev (I'm a Man City fan) and hope he makes a fool out of Allison in the final.

 

[Berflamand]

Reckon that is enough to best Remco if Belgium have a poor World Cup?
Anyway I think I'll have to support Belgium because of Kev (I'm a Man City fan) and hope he makes a fool out of Allison in the final.

I've read one opinion in Belgian press by a sports journalist who argued that Courtois should win it over Remco because football is a more global sport but I reckon if Belgium have a poor World Cup it's going to be Remco anyway. I think that opinion is more of an exception and the general sentiment is that Remco should win it.

If Belgium actually win the World Cup then it could probably go either way but I wouldn't be surprised to still see Remco take it.

 

[Andy schleck]

Reckon that is enough to best Remco if Belgium have a poor World Cup?
Anyway I think I'll have to support Belgium because of Kev (I'm a Man City fan) and hope he makes a fool out of Allison in the final.

If belgium wins the world cup, i think courtouis deserves that. But i don't know, i'm not belgian,so it's difficult to me, to understand what belgian people give more importance. I think cycling is the number one sport in belgium if i'm corret, probably remco also can win because of that.

It's a different situation in my country. If joao almeida won what remco won this year, and Portugal wins the world cup, probably the winner of sports personality of the year would go to ronaldo, or bernardo silva because the number one sport here is footbal, not cycling.

 

[Big Doopie]

… Just look at the winners-list since 1996 and up until now.

At least for the first 10-16 years you have to look in the clinic for that list, another thing that lessens the importance in overall cycling lore. Arguably we have only two recent winners to go on GVA and Carapaz. Great riders but not the type of list we have at the Worlds…

No one is arguing that the Olympics are not important to athletes in general. Which is what you seem to be arguing. It is that it simply does not represent what you think it does in a cyclist’s palmares. It has little history or tradition within the pro sport.

As @Extinction I think posted, there is no Merckx, no Coppi, no Hinault…no history in the sport.

On top of that, it is a minor event of something that traditionally puts track and field and perhaps swimming at the top of the agenda. A Cycling Worlds is all about cycling and has an amazing list of winners. Kelly rues most of all that he never won and particularly when he got beat in 1989….

 

[tobydawq]

If belgium wins the world cup, i think courtouis deserves that. But i don't know, i'm not belgian,so it's difficult to me, to understand what belgian people give more importance. I think cycling is the number one sport in belgium if i'm corret, probably remco also can win because of that.

It's a different situation in my country. If joao almeida won what remco won this year, and Portugal wins the world cup, probably the winner of sports personality of the year would go to ronaldo, or bernardo silva because the number one sport here is footbal, not cycling.

Hmm, La Liga, CL, World Cup. Sounds to me like Eden Hazard will win

It would seem a little strange to me to give it to a goalkeeper in a year where a Belgian cyclist has won a monument, a Grand Tour and the WCRR.

But if your country wins the World Cup in football, it's also hard to not honor that.

So let's just have Denmark winning the World Cup instead. Vingegaard wouldn't like the hype of being awarded Danish sports personality anyway.

 

[Extinction]

Winning the Olympic gold was always a big thing though. Maybe not amongst the pro riders, that could not participate. Of course, that would be their stance on it.

As an amateur the Olympic Gold was probably the biggest thing you could win, and many riders have gone from being an amateur to the pros at one point right? A few of the winners before 1996 had great careers after winning it.

I also think many more riders target it and wants to win it now. Just look at the winners-list since 1996 and up until now. Would they rather win an Olympic Gold than Worlds or a monument, probably not. That does not mean both cant be a huge thing, because of different aspects. Nationally it is a huge thing when someone wins a Olympic gold, in any sport, and in many countries that gets more notoriety than a win in another "big" race that the cycling community regards as a much more prestigious thing. Everything does need to be so black or white, as a lot of the dicussion tends to get on here.

Indeed the Olympics are the pinacle of sport, but for a long time was not a professional affair, for which ancient sports like cycling, which has had just as long a pedigree as the modern Olympics, still has other priorities. However, the global nature of the Olympics, as well as its impact upon nationalistic and patriotic sentiments, means that winning gold is always going to be an immense deal. But cycling doesn't need the Olympics to make a point, because the nature of the World Tour is already global in reach. Having said that, just watch this Olympic RR victory to see how much today's pro cylcing values it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AucSq-QGb2U

 

[Salvarani]

At least for the first 10-16 years you have to look in the clinic for that list, another thing that lessens the importance in overall cycling lore.

No one is arguing that the Olympics are not important to athletes in general. Which is what you seem to be arguing. It is that it simply does not represent what you think it does in a cyclist’s palmares. It has little history or tradition within the pro sport.

As @Extinction I think posted, there is no Merckx, no Coppi, no Hinault…no history in the sport.

On top of that, it is a minor event of something that traditionally puts track and field and perhaps swimming at the top of the agenda. A Cycling Worlds is all about cycling and has an amazing list of winners. Kelly rues most of all that he never won and particularly when he got beat in 1989….

But then I dont understand why you have quoted me?

Duh... it used to be only an amateur race... but it was the amateur race to win. Many went pro afterwards.

 

[Salvarani]

Indeed the Olympics are the pinacle of sport, but for a long time was not a professional affair, for which ancient sports like cycling, which has had just as long a pedigree as the modern Olympics, still has other priorities. However, the global nature of the Olymics, as well as its impact upon nationalistic and patriotic sentiments, means that winning gold is always going to be an immense deal. But cycling doesn't need the Olympics to make a point, because the nature of the World Tour is already global in reach. Having said that, just watch this Olympic RR victory to see how much today's pro cylcing values it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AucSq-QGb2U

2004 is a pretty old reference.

What about 2012 London as well?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHCLXvYRW0


Or 2016 Rio?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dO451o1sB0

 

[SHAD0W93]

At least for the first 10-16 years you have to look in the clinic for that list, another thing that lessens the importance in overall cycling lore. Arguably we have only two recent winners to go on GVA and Carapaz. Great riders but not the type of list we have at the Worlds…

No one is arguing that the Olympics are not important to athletes in general. Which is what you seem to be arguing. It is that it simply does not represent what you think it does in a cyclist’s palmares. It has little history or tradition within the pro sport.

As @Extinction I think posted, there is no Merckx, no Coppi, no Hinault…no history in the sport.

On top of that, it is a minor event of something that traditionally puts track and field and perhaps swimming at the top of the agenda. A Cycling Worlds is all about cycling and has an amazing list of winners. Kelly rues most of all that he never won and particularly when he got beat in 1989….

Just like you’d have to go to the clinic for monuments, Worlds, and GT history and for a longer period. Like I said previously, any monument or Worlds would love to have the podiums of the ORR or OTT. That’s insulting to the careers of GVA and Carapaz when they’ve had better careers than some of those who won Worlds. Oh wait it’s hard to look at Worlds history without the clinic.

Neither does SB have any history yet it was put above the Olympics. Like I said they’re referred to in every race they enter as the Olympic Champion for 4 years and former after that period. A former monument winner doesn’t get that attention unless they’re racing the type of monument they won.

And those events get the most attention because they give out the most medals.