Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I’m not a huge fan of letting nationality dictate which teammate gets to be on the podium. But UAE chasing down either rider - whether it had been Soler or Almeida out in front - doesn’t really make sense either. Both of them were clearly free to ride for themselves, so not either of their faults.

Wrong thread?

 

[Extinction]

In the Giro it probably wouldn't matter so much, because 6 secs won't likely mean the difference between first and second on the GC (although not impossibily); whereas here, unfortunately for Evenepoel, that mistake could cost him dearly in the final standings.

Prophetic!!!

 

[red_flanders]

Wrong thread?

Everything goes in this thread…

 

[Oldermanish]

If it were a one day race and the pack was in serious chase mode Primoz would definitely collaborate IMO. When you have the GC lead it is tactically risky to isolate yourself from team assistance unless there is no other choice. There was and JV escorted him to the sprint finish. He watched Remco up to the point he knew there weren't points on the line and coasted in.
It's also easy to voice that attitude when you currently sit second and your only chance for success is to isolate the opponent. He tried and kudos to him for a professional post-race analysis. He'll be good for a long time if he keeps this up.

So Primoz and Remco proved undoubtedly as the premier Stage guys for the early season. It's been fun to watch and both fan bases should be satisfied. Giro will be another edition and highlight totally different qualities and challenges. A great seasons for both so far.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So Primoz and Remco proved undoubtedly as the premier Stage guys for the early season. It's been fun to watch and both fan bases should be satisfied. Giro will be another edition and highlight totally different qualities and challenges. A great seasons for both so far.

I think as far as early season GC guys go, it's Pogacar >> Roglic /> Evenepoel >> Vingegaard, so far. Remco won UAE in the echelons, got outclimbed by Yates and wasn't able to drop Roglic this week, who won the Tirreno without a queen's stage. Pogacar was very dominant in every race he did, while Vingegaard was able to beat D-tier GC riders convincingly.

 

[Extinction]

I think as far as early season GC guys go, it's Pogacar >> Roglic /> Evenepoel >> Vingegaard, so far. Remco won UAE in the echelons, got outclimbed by Yates and wasn't able to drop Roglic this week, who won the Tirreno without a queen's stage. Pogacar was very dominant in every race he did, while Vingegaard was able to beat D-tier GC riders convincingly.

True, but all the races before PN-TA are warm-ups. So I'd consider Primoz on top by default. At any rate, the big targets are yet to come...

 

[Unchained]

Remco has shown that he has humility and he has many traits of a champion, a great sportsman for years to come.
He compliments himself by complimenting others to the highest degree. Calling Roglic a superstar, describing him as an exceptional rider..and Remco equals him in stage victories and gets beat by single digit.. I am obviously a fan boy, and see Remco and his inner circle have his feet on the ground and he appears to be realistic and has his objectives in check..
I hope that people can say and do similar things for Egan Bernal, Roglic, Quintana, and Superman Lopez..all talents that can be crushed by unrealistic expectations .

 

[Big Doopie]

Got to get a team that can make it hard over more than one climb.

His advantage is that he can keep on going when others are done. That’s when he can ride away.

His team is okay, can do it over one and a bit climbs, but cannot do it over many. And they all seem to have similar abilities so that after one pulls off the others dont last long…

 

[Akuryo]

Got to get a team that can make it hard over more than one climb.

His advantage is that he can keep on going when others are done. That’s when he can ride away.

His team is okay, can do it over one and a bit climbs, but cannot do it over many. And they all seem to have similar abilities so that after one pulls off the others dont last long…

Easier said than done. Who is available next year? Best bet would be if they could persuade Landa or Meintjes into a helper role. And then the list falls off pretty hard. Most out of contract riders (according to pcs) are either way out of their prime or already in service of other GT favorites so unlikely to change to Quickstep. The best realistic hope is that Vansevenant and/or Van Wilder take the next step in their development.

 

[Big Doopie]

Easier said than done. Who is available next year? Best bet would be if they could persuade Landa or Meintjes into a helper role. And then the list falls off pretty hard. Most out of contract riders (according to pcs) are either way out of their prime or already in service of other GT favorites so unlikely to change to Quickstep. The best realistic hope is that Vansevenant and/or Van Wilder take the next step in their development.

G?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Got to get a team that can make it hard over more than one climb.

His advantage is that he can keep on going when others are done. That’s when he can ride away.

His team is okay, can do it over one and a bit climbs, but cannot do it over many. And they all seem to have similar abilities so that after one pulls off the others dont last long…

This week would have been perfect to try and use Van Wilder as secondary GC option. He should have been able to finish in the group with Almeida/Hindley & co throughout the week. If the team had made the race hard in the two final stages without burning Van Wilder, they could have used him as a tag team option, since Jumbo looked weak. It wouldn't have been a guarantee, but it would have given them (/Evenepoel) options on the two final stages.

Easier said than done. Who is available next year? Best bet would be if they could persuade Landa or Meintjes into a helper role. And then the list falls off pretty hard. Most out of contract riders (according to pcs) are either way out of their prime or already in service of other GT favorites so unlikely to change to Quickstep. The best realistic hope is that Vansevenant and/or Van Wilder take the next step in their development.

If Meintjes would reach the same level as Hirt currently, that would hardly matter much. Cattaneo once was a GC hopefull and also finished 12th in the TDF'21.
I would go and talk to De Plus to be honest. If they can get him back to his 2019 form, he would be worth more than all those guys combined.

 

[Red Rick]

Easier said than done. Who is available next year? Best bet would be if they could persuade Landa or Meintjes into a helper role. And then the list falls off pretty hard. Most out of contract riders (according to pcs) are either way out of their prime or already in service of other GT favorites so unlikely to change to Quickstep. The best realistic hope is that Vansevenant and/or Van Wilder take the next step in their development.

Climbing domestiques are tricky business. I think established climbers are kinda mid in many cases. Especially guys like Landa who are probably very expensive and you know 100% sure they're not gonna do much inbetween mountains and they last 200m following Pogacar.

If you wanna go to the Tour, you Alaphilippe should do a job, unless he doesn't get renewed.

The first pick I searched for, who doesn't have a contract for 2024 is Matteo Jorgensen, but he may get really pricey if he achieves a lot this year.

 

[Akuryo]

This week would have been perfect to try and use Van Wilder as secondary GC option. He should have been able to finish in the group with Almeida/Hindley & co throughout the week. If the team had made the race hard in the two final stages without burning Van Wilder, they could have used him as a tag team option, since Jumbo looked weak. It wouldn't have been a guarantee, but it would have given them (/Evenepoel) options on the two final stages.


If Meintjes would reach the same level as Hirt currently, that would hardly matter much. Cattaneo once was a GC hopefull and also finished 12th in the TDF'21.
I would go and talk to De Plus to be honest. If they can get him back to his 2019 form, he would be worth more than all those guys combined.

I wasn't advocating for Meintjes to be the savior of their mountain helpers. I just said that he is probably the best rider out of contract for 2024 who they could (kind of realistically) get. Which, again, says a lot about the market.

It is the hardest position to fill. You want to have 1-2 guys who could finish top 10 on their own in a GT but are willing to give that up. At the same time need to be not on some rivals team already and in addition to that also be out of contract/affordable. That narrows it down pretty hard.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The first pick I searched for, who doesn't have a contract for 2024 is Matteo Jorgensen, but he may get really pricey if he achieves a lot this year.

What exactly has he proven over 3 weeks as a HC climber? Like i said last year, they should have gone for Teuns. He could fill a gap in their current classics squad, as well as help Evenepoel on select GC stages. Even from a break, dropping back. De Plus could do a similar job as Serry, but a little later in the stage. Otherwise, i think a French podcast suggested Sivakov, maybe he has figured out he's never going to win a GT, but he wouldn't be cheap either i assume.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

For those who want to debate the position of Nibali at the moment Evenepoel attacked in Liège, you can try to find him in this video. I think it's safe to say he was speaking in a conditional manner, judging by the speed and accelerations in the bunch, that he wouldn't have been able to follow had he been in a position to do so.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1518273004484149250

View: https://twitter.com/Lv_Cycling/status/1518273004484149250

 

[Red Rick]

What exactly has he proven over 3 weeks as a HC climber? Like i said last year, they should have gone for Teuns. He could fill a gap in their current classics squad, as well as help Evenepoel on select GC stages. Even from a break, dropping back. De Plus could do a similar job as Serry, but a little later in the stage. Otherwise, i think a French podcast suggested Sivakov, maybe he has figured out he's never going to win a GT, but he wouldn't be cheap either i assume.

Not super much yet, but he's young and definitely made a step up this year.

I think established lower end top 10 climbers just aren't that useful, especially if they're these super light weight guys with very little rouleur capacity. For the pure climber role I'd just hope Van Wilder makes a jump and Hirt is good enough. Hirt was top 5 on some stages last Giro.

Sepp Kuss level climbers aren't very available, and even then Kuss himself is pretty inconsistent. There's a lot of room for swinging and missing with most names you can come up with, so it's heavily up to the team to get the riders up to the level they need to be.

 

[hfer07]

It was a great Volta a Catalunya for Remco with *2 stage wins & 2nd overall. At first glance it doesn't look that great, but I like the way the type of rider Remco is becoming, as he acquires more experience. He'll be ready & a worthy adversary for the Giro showdown against Roglic

 

[Big Doopie]

Laporte is out of contract. Again, feels like they need some guys to make the first climbs real hard and then a couple of good climbers to launch at the end.

Convince G to not retire and be a great road captain. They get along too I believe.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not super much yet, but he's young and definitely made a step up this year.

I think established lower end top 10 climbers just aren't that useful, especially if they're these super light weight guys with very little rouleur capacity. For the pure climber role I'd just hope Van Wilder makes a jump and Hirt is good enough. Hirt was top 5 on some stages last Giro.

Sepp Kuss level climbers aren't very available, and even then Kuss himself is pretty inconsistent. There's a lot of room for swinging and missing with most names you can come up with, so it's heavily up to the team to get the riders up to the level they need to be.

Problem with Van Wilder is that he is a tempo climber and he also has to stay within his limits. Once he goes in the red, he burns up quickly. But judging from his Strava training rides, i think he is also not that close to absolute top form. He should have improved considerably by the time the Giro starts compared to the Vuelta, considering his trajectory the past few years. I also wonder if they will get him to get a bit leaner as well, because i think he would benefit from it as a climber.

 

[Netserk]

The wind was clearly coming from their right on the climb to Castell de Montjuïc and you could see that Rogla rode on the left of Evenepoel, yet the latter never once rode in the left side of the road to make it harder to draft him. Basic stuff.

 

[Extinction]

Apart from bringing in climbing reenforcement, I think what Remco should come away with in this first duel against Roglic is that the Slovenian is the supreme cunctator. Primoz rarely grabs the bull by the horns, rather he always bides his time and looks to strike only when there is little risk involved and sees an advantage to be gained from the opponent's efforts.

Consequently, Evenepoel I think needs to control his killer instincts a bit, the born attacker such as he is, and somehow find a way to force Roglic to come out of his corner sooner. Don't give Primoz, in other words, the opportunity to capitalize on Remco's work by wheelsucking him. How this is to be done I don't know, only that it must be done to prevent Remco from assuming a domestique role for Primoz. Otherwise Evenepoel must drop Roglic to win the Giro, unless the TTs give him an advantage that forces Primoz to have to attack.

 

[Big Doopie]

Apart from bringing in climbing reenforcement, I think what Remco should come away with in this first duel against Roglic is that the Slovenian is the supreme cunctator. Primoz rarely grabs the bull by the horns, rather he always bides his time and looks to strike only when there is little risk involved and sees an advantage to be gained from the opponent's efforts.

Consequently, Evenepoel I think needs to control his killer instincts a bit, the born attacker such as he is, and somehow find a way to force Roglic to come out of his corner sooner. Don't give Primoz, in other words, the opportunity to capitalize on Remco's work by wheelsucking him. How this is to be done I don't know, only that it must be done to prevent Remco from assuming a domestique role for Primoz. Otherwise Evenepoel must drop Roglic to win the Giro, unless the TTs give him an advantage that forces Primoz to have to attack.

and this is precisely why some form of TT should be in literally every stage race (as it used to be).

if you have balance, then you also have the conflict between the better climber all-around rider and the better rouleur all-around rider. If Remco gains even 10 seconds in the opening TT at the giro, that changes everything, all tactics. Assuming Rog is the better climber (or at least finisher), then he now has to find the time on the road. Maybe he finds it and takes pink. Then maybe remco takes it back during the second week TT. Then Rog takes it back in the last week mountains, setting up an exciting final TT that includes both disciplines...

That is precisely how stage races are supposed to be fought out.

The recent routes with little to no TT do not serve cycling.

 

[Extinction]

and this is precisely why some form of TT should be in literally every stage race (as it used to be).

if you have balance, then you also have the conflict between the better climber all-around rider and the better rouleur all-around rider. If Remco gains even 10 seconds in the opening TT at the giro, that changes everything, all tactics. Assuming Rog is the better climber (or at least finisher), then he now has to find the time on the road. Maybe he finds it and takes pink. Then maybe remco takes it back during the second week TT. Then Rog takes it back in the last week mountains, setting up an exciting final TT that includes both disciplines...

That is precisely how stage races are supposed to be fought out.

The recent routes with little to no TT do not serve cycling.

I think they cut back on the TTing to not kill the racing before it really gets started, since in today's cycling the "pure climbing specialist" has become mostly a thing of the past. Nowadays often the all-rounders can climb with the climbers, but crush them in the TTs, so there's no way for climbers to take minutes back lost in the TTs. Thus the idea was to not give a certain type of rider too great of an advantage with long TTs.

Having said that, I think it's time to bring back the 50+ TTs in the GTs, because the current crop of talent can both climb and TT well. So there's no reason to have, for example, a Tour like this year's with so little km of TTing, unless to help the French hopes, even though it's useless, because they still will drop out of contention in the mountains.

I'd welcome the type of routes with multiple pass mountain stages and a couple of long TTs on undulating terrain.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

and this is precisely why some form of TT should be in literally every stage race (as it used to be).

if you have balance, then you also have the conflict between the better climber all-around rider and the better rouleur all-around rider. If Remco gains even 10 seconds in the opening TT at the giro, that changes everything, all tactics. Assuming Rog is the better climber (or at least finisher), then he now has to find the time on the road. Maybe he finds it and takes pink. Then maybe remco takes it back during the second week TT. Then Rog takes it back in the last week mountains, setting up an exciting final TT that includes both disciplines...

That is precisely how stage races are supposed to be fought out.

The recent routes with little to no TT do not serve cycling.

First TT is 18km. It's the most important TT, even if it's the shortest. If Evenepoel can get a big enough timegap there, say 20-25 seconds, not only does it give him those +/-20 seconds as a buffer that Roglic needs to undo, but it also sends a signal with 50 upcoming TT kilometers, that Roglic might want to take time every chance he gets, in advance. It would give Evenepoel the upperhand tactically, because Roglic would be the one who needs to drop Evenepoel instead of the other way around. So this time Evenepoel can ride more defensively and counter. If they are pretty much tied after the first TT, Roglic might again not feel motivated to race.

 

[Big Doopie]

I think they cut back on the TTing to not kill the racing before it really gets started, since in today's cycling the "pure climbing specialist" has become mostly a thing of the past. Nowadays often the all-rounders can climb with the climbers, but crush them in the TTs, so there's no way for climbers to take minutes back lost in the TTs. Thus the idea was to not give a certain type of rider too great of an advantage with long TTs.

i understand but disagree with this narrative.

all-rounders always crushed the climbers in TTs. Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Anquetil -- the riders with the most TDFs all crushed their opponents in TTs and largely "resisted" in the mountains.

the problem with today's routes is that instead of being happy with 2-4 possible GC winners, the designers believe that they need to have 10-15. so riders like landa, pinot, gaudu, mas etc... have been made to seem like GCers at some point in their career when really they are not.

you need only two evenly matched all-arounders to make a stage race exciting: Merckx vs. Ocana, Merckx vs. Thevenet, Hinault vs. Lemond, Hinault vs. Fignon. Lemond vs. Fignon. Pog vs. Rog. Pog vs. Vingo. Rog vs. Remco.

it is in trying to superficially create more contenders that route designers have diluted the test of stage racing.