Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Even 2023 Pogacar is better than any kind of version Remco showed in his career.

 

[bNator]

No need to rewrite history. Reality is bad enough as it is. Evenepoel won LBL in 2022 and 2023. Those years Pogacar was very much beatable. He had to sprint against Mas in Lombardia 2022, he lost Emilia to Mas, he was nowhere in Wollongong, 4th in Flanders, 12th in Fleche, lost the Tour. In 2023 he lost Emilia to Roglic, needed the race director to save him from Healy in Amstel, wasn't able to drop a dozen riders in Tre Valli and became 5th, lost Worlds to Van der Poel, lost the Tour... That was a completely different Pogacar.

How many times has Remco actually won against Pog on the road when they were both going for it? Regardless of the year… I can only remember once but I’m sure you’ll spit a few more. But in any case - assuming Pog would beat Remco in a race he hasn’t attended or has crashed in… well, it’s a reasonable assumption.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Laugh what you want, only Remco's cult believe in that. Enough reason to not take your opinion seriously.

Edit: In fact, you implied Remco has regressed in classics so 2022 Remco was probably his best version. This means you believe 2022 Remco was better than 2022-2023 Pogacar which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How many times has Remco actually won against Pog on the road when they were both going for it? Regardless of the year… I can only remember once but I’m sure you’ll spit a few more. But in any case - assuming Pog would beat Remco in a race he hasn’t attended or has crashed in… well, it’s a reasonable assumption.

It is not a reasonable assumption when a week earlier he was getting caught by freaking Ben Healy.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Remco needs to level up like Pog did from 2023 to 2024. I would seriously have liked to see how Evenepoel would have compared to pre-2024 Pog last year in the Tour and this year during WCC/ECC.

And yet Remco was convincingly beaten by Vingegaard with one lung. I mean you can't compare that easily across years due to "technology" advancing. Not only Pogacar had leap of performance, but even Vingegaard (after big crash) as well as Remco and Landa had huge numbers on Plateau de Beille (by far career best on such a long climb).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Laugh what you want, only Remco's cult believe in that. Enough reason to not take your opinion seriously.

lol, i'm so sorry to hear that.

 

[bNator]

It is not a reasonable assumption when a week earlier he was getting caught by freaking Ben Healy.

So it really was once…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And yet Remco was convincingly beaten by Vingegaard with one lung. I mean you can't compare that easily across years due to "technology" advancing. Not only Pogacar & Vingegaard had leaps of performances, also Remco and Landa had huge numbers on Plateau de Beille (by far career best on such a long climb).

Beaten with 3 minutes by Vingegaard on one lung who was also spitting out numbers better than the year before... when he beat Pogacar by 8 minutes.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is really the most annoying fanbase. How can such a fanbase (fortunately not all) write so many things completely away from reality. Now, we are comparing 2024 Remco to 2023 Pogacar in the Tour. Even 2024 Landa showed better numbers than 2023 Vingegaard/Pogacar in multiple stages. Does this mean Landa could beat Pogacar? 2024 was a strange year.
I'm really out, this thread is unreadable most of the time. See you on Lombardy, where we will have another show in the Serena vs Sharapova rivalry.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Beaten with 3 minutes by Vingegaard on one lung who was also spitting out numbers better than the year before... when he beat Pogacar by 8 minutes.

That's my point. There was a leap of performance in 2024 by Pogacar but not only by him. Vingegaard was super-impressive considering what he had to go through before the Tour. And yes, QS guys had awesome numbers as well (crazy leap by Evenepoel between Dauphine and the Tour). Pogacar from a few years back indeed would've lost that Tour because general level upped for some reason we can't talk here.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm really out

I win!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So it really was once…

Eh, no.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That's my point. There was a leap of performance in 2024 by Pogacar but not only by him. Vingegaard was super-impressive considering what he had to go through before the Tour. And yes, QS guys had awesome numbers as well (crazy leap by Evenepoel between Dauphine and the Tour). Pogacar from a few years back indeed would've lost that Tour because general level upped for some reason we can't talk here.

So... you agree that '24 Evenepoel vs '23 Pogacar would have been much more close. Which was my point.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So... you agree that '24 Evenepoel vs '23 Pogacar would have been much more close. Which was my point.

Yes. But my point is that Evenepoel from year X has never been close to Pogacar from year X. Comparing across different years is not adequate because there's a general leap of performances in peleton in 2020-2024. Evenepoel'24 probably wouldn't have possibilities to be that strong in 2023.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The delusions run high among some of Pogs fans it seems. In 2020, Pog finished LBL in a GROUP with Mohoric, Hirschi, Roglic only 14 seconds ahead of a group with Ritchie Porte, lol. In 2021 he finished LBL in a GROUP with freaking DAVID GAUDU. My lord, and they think i'm delusional.

Yes. But my point is that Evenepoel from year X has never been close to Pogacar from year X. Comparing across different years is not adequate because there's a general leap of performances in peleton in 2020-2024. Evenepoel'24 probably wouldn't have possibilities to be that strong in 2023.

First of all, that was the hypothesis. You can find it a dumb one, and you are free to do so, but then you shouldn't argue about it when it turns out you actually agree with the hypothesis.
Secondly overall Pogacar was always better the same year, but before 2024, there were certainly races where Evenepoel could (and did) beat him.

 

[Berniece]

I'm really out, this thread is unreadable most of the time

 

[Krzysztof_O]

First of all, that was the hypothesis. You can find it a dumb one, and you are free to do so, but then you shouldn't argue about it when it turns out you actually agree with the hypothesis.
Secondly overall Pogacar was always better the same year, but before 2024, there were certainly races where Evenepoel could (and did) beat him.

I agreed but pointed out why such comparisons (and time travels) are not always adequate.
As for your second point, in one-day races they were closer but the gap increased. I also believe hilly classics are races where Evenepoel is more likely to close the gap (much less probability in stage-races).

 

[Salvarani]

"The delusions run high among some of Pogs fans it seems. In 2020, Pog finished LBL in a GROUP with Mohoric, Hirschi, Roglic only 14 seconds ahead of a group with Ritchie Porte, lol. In 2021 he finished LBL in a GROUP with freaking DAVID GAUDU. My lord, and they think i'm delusional. "

What does this have to do with anything?

He was still very early in his career.

Talk about being insecure and deflecting heavily from the real conversation.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I agreed but pointed out why such comparisons (and time travels) are not always adequate.
As for your second point, in one-day races they were closer but the gap increased. I also believe hilly classics are races where Evenepoel is more likely to close the gap (much less probability in stage-races).

My two main points were, the Evenepoel of the 2024 TDF vs Pogacar prior to 2024 would be an interesting battle. Yes, this is pointless but it is testament to how much Pogacar improved from 2023 to 2024.

My second point was that Evenepoel of 2022 and 2023 would still have been able to win LBL against Pogacar in those years unlike what another poster claimed. It's clear his fans are suffering from early dementia as they have forgotten that back then, Pog did not win his classics by dominating but by finishing in a small group, if he even won them. While back then Evenepoel already was winning his classics, by dominating/solos. See 2019 Classica (where Pogacar couldn't follow the pace, just 3 weeks before the Vuelta he podiumed) and 2022 where he dropped Yates off his wheel and won by 2 minutes, Liège '22 and '23. Where as Pogacar finished in groups with Gaudu and Mohoric the years prior. Furthermore Pogacar won Lombardia in '21 by beating Masnada in a sprint and in '22 by beating Mas in a sprint. The Pog in classics before and after 2023 are worlds apart.

 

[Berniece]

Remco needs to level up like Pog did from 2023 to 2024. I would seriously have liked to see how Evenepoel would have compared to pre-2024 Pog last year in the Tour and this year during WCC/ECC.

Pogacar at 2023 level would've finished with Seixas in UEC

 

[Krzysztof_O]

My second point was that Evenepoel of 2022 and 2023 would still have been able to win LBL against Pogacar in those years. It's clear his fans are suffering from early dementia as they have forgotten that back then, Pog did not win his classics by dominating but by finishing in a small group, if he even won them. While back then Evenepoel already was winning his classics, by dominating/solos. See 2019 Classica (where Pogacar couldn't follow the pace, just 3 weeks before the Vuelta he podiumed) and 2022, Liège '22 and '23, where Pogacar finished in groups with Gaudu and Mohoric the years prior. While Pogacar won Lombardia in '21 by beating Masnada in a sprint and in '22 by beating Mas in a sprint. The Pog in classics before and after 2023 are worlds apart.

As I already agreed, the gap between them in classics increased indeed, Pogacar became better there circa 2 years ago. It's also true that a cyclist improving at the age of 23-25 isn't necessarily that shocking (even besides clinical aspects). Maybe Evenepoel can still improve and match Pogacar in classics, who knows.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Remco is really unfortunate that he's not riding against Merckx. He would have crushed it in the 70s with the numbers he puts out today.

Also Gaudu has been a fine rider at certain points of his career. There's no reason to diss him.

 

[Berniece]

As I already said, the gap between them in classics increased indeed, Pogacar became better there circa 2 years ago. It's also true that a cyclist improving at the age of 23-25 isn't necessarily that shocking (even besides clinical aspects). Maybe Evenepoel can still improve and match Pogacar in classics, who knows.

It's just weird that die hard Pogacar fans (not you) can't fathom that they were much closer before 2024, and Evenepoel could've even won monuments against him. Pogacar was never as dominant as he was now before 2024. That doesn't discredit his current performances or his palmares. This obsessive need to make sure everyone needs to get on their knees is cult-like.

 

[KoopaCycling]

I think we can all agree on that we should not be surprised if we're having another debate about a certain topic in a couple of years, and wonder which cyclist benefited more. After all it's not cause they used the same training methods, that they all enjoyed the same benefits.

In any case recency bias is real. Last 2 years Pogacar been on another planet. But it was not so long ago that Vingegaard was starting to be considered the greater GT racer. And that Pogacar was not untouchable everywhere. Evenepoel did beat him on several occasions prior to the latter half of 2023. It's only after that timeframe things became very one-sided. When Pogacar took his great leap forward at the age of 25.

Pogacar is currently near untouchable, and already the 2nd greatest. No debate there. But there is difference between Pogacar before, and after a certain time/date.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Also Gaudu has been a fine rider at certain points of his career. There's no reason to diss him.

That was his single best 250+km result in his career. Would you have expected him to follow Evenepoel in LBL '22 and '23? Or Pogacar this sunday and the one before? Surely not.
And it's not just Gaudu. Mohoric was also there. In '22 Mohoric was chasing Evenepoel and completely blew up.

Also look at the time differences in those editions with Pogacar. In 2020 there were 31 riders within 1 minute. In 2021 there were 18 riders within 40 seconds. Then the years Evenepoel won, in 2022 there were 14 riders within 1 minute, the closest at 48 seconds. In 2023 there was nobody within 1 minute of Evenepoel, closest was Pidcock at 1:08. So stating that Evenepoel won because Pogacar wasn't there in 2022 /23 is a load of crock. Pog prior to 2024 was beatable.