Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The ghosts of Fleche Wallonne and Liege would suggest you are wrong. At Fleche, Remco was on Pogacar's wheel when he accelerated....

You mean this year? After it was already clear he was getting worse every day because what happened in the winter? With a complete implosion following mere days later at LBL? And Dauphiné and Tour as extra evidence?

While i agree Pog would likely have been able to drop Evenepoel on one of those murs, bringing up this year's Fleche, and even worse, Liège, isn't exactly the argument you are hoping it to be.

 

[Shortcut]

No need to rewrite history. Reality is bad enough as it is. Evenepoel won LBL in 2022 and 2023. Those years Pogacar was very much beatable. He had to sprint against Mas in Lombardia 2022, he lost Emilia to Mas, he was nowhere in Wollongong, 4th in Flanders, 12th in Fleche, lost the Tour. In 2023 he lost Emilia to Roglic, needed the race director to save him from Healy in Amstel, wasn't able to drop a dozen riders in Tre Valli and became 5th, lost Worlds to Van der Poel, lost the Tour... That was a completely different Pogacar.

Uff, i can't believe somebody could put it like that. In 2022 he was 4th at Flanders but because he really f.ked up finish. He was already there with MvDP. Also he won Lombardia. Those preparation races when he lost (that is all what they are for him) are totally irelevant. Reality is he was already second best st Flanders in 2022 and then best in 2023. He won both years GdL. And LBL would be the same. Quebec, Montreal, Emilia, Tree Valli, E3, Amstel, FW are just preparation races for him, yes he still wins most of them because he wants to win them all at least one time, but they are not his big goals.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Uff, i can't believe somebody could put it like that. In 2022 he was 4th at Flanders but because he really f.ked up finish. He was already there with MvDP. Also he won Lombardia. Those preparation races when he lost (that is all what they are for him) are totally irelevant. Reality is he was already second best st Flanders in 2022 and then best in 2023. He won both years GdL. And LBL would be the same. Quebec, Montreal, Emilia, Tree Valli, E3, Amstel, FW are just preparation races for him, yes he still wins most of them because he wants to win them all at least one time, but they are not his big goals.

He won Lombardia in a sprint against Mas. Hello. He lost the Tour. He was out of his depth in Wollongong. You have to be seriously smoking some of the good stuff if you don't see the vast improvement he made since 2022/2023. The Pog that beat Evenepoel on Sunday is not at all comparable with the guy who won Lombardia in 2022/2023. And while Evenepoel might have improved a bit as well, he did not make a jump like that, in fact, many will argue in classics and one day races he has regressed since then. So no, you can not simply assume Pogacar would have won LBL (for god's sake, he couldn't even beat Healy in Amstel without help from the race director) those years or state that Evenepoel only won them because Pog wasn't there. That was an era that long solos were Evenepoel's signature, not Pogacar's.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He won Lombardia in a sprint against Mas. Hello. He lost the Tour. He was out of his depth in Wollongong. You have to be seriously smoking some of the good stuff if you don't see the vast improvement he made since 2022/2023. The Pog that beat Evenepoel on Sunday is not at all comparable with the guy who won Lombardia in 2022/2023. And while Evenepoel might have improved a bit as well, he did not make a jump like that, in fact, many will argue in classics and one day races he has regressed since then. So no, you can not simply assume Pogacar would have won LBL (for god's sake, he couldn't even beat Healy in Amstel without help from the race director) those years or state that Evenepoel only won them because Pog wasn't there. That was an era that long solos were Evenepoel's signature, not Pogacar's.

"Many"= some crazy Remco fans. I don't give a lot of time to start hearing 2022 Remco could be close to 2024/2025 Pogacar.
Even 2023 Pogacar is better than any kind of version Remco showed in his career. A shame he broke his hand in 2023 LBL, that clearly hampered his second half of the season (despite beating Remco and others easily).

 

[AmRacer]

"Many"= some crazy Remco fans. I don't give a lot of time to start hearing 2022 Remco could be close to 2024/2025 Pogacar.
Even 2023 Pogacar is better than any kind of version Remco showed in his career. A shame he broke his hand in 2023 LBL, that clearly hampered his second half of the season (despite beating Remco and others easily).

Remco 2024/2025 is better than Pogi 2018. 😁

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Even 2023 Pogacar is better than any kind of version Remco showed in his career.

 

[bNator]

No need to rewrite history. Reality is bad enough as it is. Evenepoel won LBL in 2022 and 2023. Those years Pogacar was very much beatable. He had to sprint against Mas in Lombardia 2022, he lost Emilia to Mas, he was nowhere in Wollongong, 4th in Flanders, 12th in Fleche, lost the Tour. In 2023 he lost Emilia to Roglic, needed the race director to save him from Healy in Amstel, wasn't able to drop a dozen riders in Tre Valli and became 5th, lost Worlds to Van der Poel, lost the Tour... That was a completely different Pogacar.

How many times has Remco actually won against Pog on the road when they were both going for it? Regardless of the year… I can only remember once but I’m sure you’ll spit a few more. But in any case - assuming Pog would beat Remco in a race he hasn’t attended or has crashed in… well, it’s a reasonable assumption.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Laugh what you want, only Remco's cult believe in that. Enough reason to not take your opinion seriously.

Edit: In fact, you implied Remco has regressed in classics so 2022 Remco was probably his best version. This means you believe 2022 Remco was better than 2022-2023 Pogacar which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How many times has Remco actually won against Pog on the road when they were both going for it? Regardless of the year… I can only remember once but I’m sure you’ll spit a few more. But in any case - assuming Pog would beat Remco in a race he hasn’t attended or has crashed in… well, it’s a reasonable assumption.

It is not a reasonable assumption when a week earlier he was getting caught by freaking Ben Healy.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Remco needs to level up like Pog did from 2023 to 2024. I would seriously have liked to see how Evenepoel would have compared to pre-2024 Pog last year in the Tour and this year during WCC/ECC.

And yet Remco was convincingly beaten by Vingegaard with one lung. I mean you can't compare that easily across years due to "technology" advancing. Not only Pogacar had leap of performance, but even Vingegaard (after big crash) as well as Remco and Landa had huge numbers on Plateau de Beille (by far career best on such a long climb).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Laugh what you want, only Remco's cult believe in that. Enough reason to not take your opinion seriously.

lol, i'm so sorry to hear that.

 

[bNator]

It is not a reasonable assumption when a week earlier he was getting caught by freaking Ben Healy.

So it really was once…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And yet Remco was convincingly beaten by Vingegaard with one lung. I mean you can't compare that easily across years due to "technology" advancing. Not only Pogacar & Vingegaard had leaps of performances, also Remco and Landa had huge numbers on Plateau de Beille (by far career best on such a long climb).

Beaten with 3 minutes by Vingegaard on one lung who was also spitting out numbers better than the year before... when he beat Pogacar by 8 minutes.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is really the most annoying fanbase. How can such a fanbase (fortunately not all) write so many things completely away from reality. Now, we are comparing 2024 Remco to 2023 Pogacar in the Tour. Even 2024 Landa showed better numbers than 2023 Vingegaard/Pogacar in multiple stages. Does this mean Landa could beat Pogacar? 2024 was a strange year.
I'm really out, this thread is unreadable most of the time. See you on Lombardy, where we will have another show in the Serena vs Sharapova rivalry.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Beaten with 3 minutes by Vingegaard on one lung who was also spitting out numbers better than the year before... when he beat Pogacar by 8 minutes.

That's my point. There was a leap of performance in 2024 by Pogacar but not only by him. Vingegaard was super-impressive considering what he had to go through before the Tour. And yes, QS guys had awesome numbers as well (crazy leap by Evenepoel between Dauphine and the Tour). Pogacar from a few years back indeed would've lost that Tour because general level upped for some reason we can't talk here.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm really out

I win!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So it really was once…

Eh, no.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That's my point. There was a leap of performance in 2024 by Pogacar but not only by him. Vingegaard was super-impressive considering what he had to go through before the Tour. And yes, QS guys had awesome numbers as well (crazy leap by Evenepoel between Dauphine and the Tour). Pogacar from a few years back indeed would've lost that Tour because general level upped for some reason we can't talk here.

So... you agree that '24 Evenepoel vs '23 Pogacar would have been much more close. Which was my point.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So... you agree that '24 Evenepoel vs '23 Pogacar would have been much more close. Which was my point.

Yes. But my point is that Evenepoel from year X has never been close to Pogacar from year X. Comparing across different years is not adequate because there's a general leap of performances in peleton in 2020-2024. Evenepoel'24 probably wouldn't have possibilities to be that strong in 2023.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The delusions run high among some of Pogs fans it seems. In 2020, Pog finished LBL in a GROUP with Mohoric, Hirschi, Roglic only 14 seconds ahead of a group with Ritchie Porte, lol. In 2021 he finished LBL in a GROUP with freaking DAVID GAUDU. My lord, and they think i'm delusional.

Yes. But my point is that Evenepoel from year X has never been close to Pogacar from year X. Comparing across different years is not adequate because there's a general leap of performances in peleton in 2020-2024. Evenepoel'24 probably wouldn't have possibilities to be that strong in 2023.

First of all, that was the hypothesis. You can find it a dumb one, and you are free to do so, but then you shouldn't argue about it when it turns out you actually agree with the hypothesis.
Secondly overall Pogacar was always better the same year, but before 2024, there were certainly races where Evenepoel could (and did) beat him.

 

[Berniece]

I'm really out, this thread is unreadable most of the time

 

[Krzysztof_O]

First of all, that was the hypothesis. You can find it a dumb one, and you are free to do so, but then you shouldn't argue about it when it turns out you actually agree with the hypothesis.
Secondly overall Pogacar was always better the same year, but before 2024, there were certainly races where Evenepoel could (and did) beat him.

I agreed but pointed out why such comparisons (and time travels) are not always adequate.
As for your second point, in one-day races they were closer but the gap increased. I also believe hilly classics are races where Evenepoel is more likely to close the gap (much less probability in stage-races).

 

[Salvarani]

"The delusions run high among some of Pogs fans it seems. In 2020, Pog finished LBL in a GROUP with Mohoric, Hirschi, Roglic only 14 seconds ahead of a group with Ritchie Porte, lol. In 2021 he finished LBL in a GROUP with freaking DAVID GAUDU. My lord, and they think i'm delusional. "

What does this have to do with anything?

He was still very early in his career.

Talk about being insecure and deflecting heavily from the real conversation.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I agreed but pointed out why such comparisons (and time travels) are not always adequate.
As for your second point, in one-day races they were closer but the gap increased. I also believe hilly classics are races where Evenepoel is more likely to close the gap (much less probability in stage-races).

My two main points were, the Evenepoel of the 2024 TDF vs Pogacar prior to 2024 would be an interesting battle. Yes, this is pointless but it is testament to how much Pogacar improved from 2023 to 2024.

My second point was that Evenepoel of 2022 and 2023 would still have been able to win LBL against Pogacar in those years unlike what another poster claimed. It's clear his fans are suffering from early dementia as they have forgotten that back then, Pog did not win his classics by dominating but by finishing in a small group, if he even won them. While back then Evenepoel already was winning his classics, by dominating/solos. See 2019 Classica (where Pogacar couldn't follow the pace, just 3 weeks before the Vuelta he podiumed) and 2022 where he dropped Yates off his wheel and won by 2 minutes, Liège '22 and '23. Where as Pogacar finished in groups with Gaudu and Mohoric the years prior. Furthermore Pogacar won Lombardia in '21 by beating Masnada in a sprint and in '22 by beating Mas in a sprint. The Pog in classics before and after 2023 are worlds apart.

 

[Berniece]

Remco needs to level up like Pog did from 2023 to 2024. I would seriously have liked to see how Evenepoel would have compared to pre-2024 Pog last year in the Tour and this year during WCC/ECC.

Pogacar at 2023 level would've finished with Seixas in UEC