Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Salvarani]

lol, it was still very early in his career? It was a year before he would supposedly have beaten Evenepoel who in reality crushed the entire peloton, while a week prior Pog couldn't even top 10 in Fleche. Thanks for chiming in though. Nice to see now the argument suddenly jumps to "but back then he wasn't as good yet" WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT.

He was good and got better.

Kind of how that works.

 

[Netserk]

So you want more wheel suckers? Courage and Remco are synonyms.

Yes, I think riders should play to win. At least if they think they are good enough to go for the victory.

For vain riders it may take more courage than what they can muster to wheel suck a rival.

 

[Berniece]

Yes, I think riders should play to win. At least if they think they are good enough to go for the victory.

For vain riders it may take more courage than what they can muster to wheel suck a rival.

It has nothing to do with vanity. You are assuming Evenepoel thinks he isn't the strongest. In your case against Colbrelli he kept going because he wanted to drop him uphill. Afterwards he kept going because he wanted to tire him, like he tires so many other riders that are in his wheel.

Not saying that was the right tactic, just saying Evenepoel believes that was the best thing to do. Not even thinking wheel sucking might get him further.

 

[Andre]

Yes, I think riders should play to win. At least if they think they are good enough to go for the victory.

For vain riders it may take more courage than what they can muster to wheel suck a rival.

which recent race should Remco have sucked a wheel? I think you are confusing the word vain with "voracity" and his superior drive to win

 

[YavorD]

It has nothing to do with vanity. You are assuming Evenepoel thinks he isn't the strongest. In your case against Colbrelli he kept going because he wanted to drop him uphill. Afterwards he kept going because he wanted to tire him, like he tires so many other riders that are in his wheel.

Not saying that was the right tactic, just saying Evenepoel believes that was the best thing to do. Not even thinking wheel sucking might get him further.

Funny thing is, people seem to assume that someone would just work with Evenepoel on his wheel if he isn't contributing.
It could happen in a GT on a very specific situation, but generally nobody would work if Evenepoel doesn't contribute as well, so he can't just suck wheel even if he wants.

 

[Netserk]

which recent race should Remco have sucked a wheel? I think you are confusing the word vain with "voracity" and his superior drive to win

The clearest example where that alone could have changed the outcome: Amstel after Pogi was caught.

Notice how the latter had no trouble staying out of the wind before the sprint. He took the route that was most likely to have him win.

 

[Andre]

The clearest example where that alone could have changed the outcome: Amstel after Pogi was caught.

Notice how the latter had no trouble staying out of the wind before the sprint. He took the route that was most likely to have him win.

...but he didn't win, Skjlemosse won. I don't remember the race frame by frame but what I do recall is the pressure that Remco put on Pogi is what led Pogi to get cooked and caught. I don't know who took the most pulls when there was about 8 kilometers left, but at the finish Remco positioned himself in the front and miscalculated by 30 or 40 meters his sprint, otherwise he wins the race.

 

[AmRacer]

...but he didn't win, Skjlemosse won. I don't remember the race frame by frame but what I do recall is the pressure that Remco put on Pogi is what led Pogi to get cooked and caught. I don't know who took the most pulls when there was about 8 kilometers left, but at the finish Remco positioned himself in the front and miscalculated by 30 or 40 meters his sprint, otherwise he wins the race.

Pogi didn't win 😲
There was no way Remco could've won Amstel

 

[Andre]

Pogi didn't win 😲
There was no way Remco could've won Amstel

oh there were many ways

 

[Netserk]

...but he didn't win, Skjlemosse won. I don't remember the race frame by frame but what I do recall is the pressure that Remco put on Pogi is what led Pogi to get cooked and caught. I don't know who took the most pulls when there was about 8 kilometers left, but at the finish Remco positioned himself in the front and miscalculated by 30 or 40 meters his sprint, otherwise he wins the race.

Then I think you should rewatch the last 3 km.

And yes, sometimes even a good strategy have you lose, and vice versa. This is not chess. But Pogi gave himself a far better chance with the way he rode than what Evenepoel did.

 

[Copperberg]

I like the way Remco rides, he is an ITT monster, and just like he says himself You need Big Balls!
Had he wheelsucked Amstel he would never make it up to Pogi in the first place, he gave himself the chance to win, nothing else. You win some and loose some. I hope he never change how he rides it is a pure joy to watch.

 

[peterfin]

Fantastic discussion here lads. Now I see how this thread gets so many pages

It's just the place to be llmaestro. For the Remco fans, the Pogacar fans, the Remco haters and all those like you enjoying the show.

 

[Oldman]

You mean this year? After it was already clear he was getting worse every day because what happened in the winter? With a complete implosion following mere days later at LBL? And Dauphiné and Tour as extra evidence?

While i agree Pog would likely have been able to drop Evenepoel on one of those murs, bringing up this year's Fleche, and even worse, Liège, isn't exactly the argument you are hoping it to be.

I replied to the question. Your conditional elements notwithstanding; you have your answer.

 

[topt]

I like the way Remco rides, he is an ITT monster, and just like he says himself You need Big Balls!
Had he wheelsucked Amstel he would never make it up to Pogi in the first place, he gave himself the chance to win, nothing else. You win some and loose some. I hope he never change how he rides it is a pure joy to watch.

), you only lose vs Pog

 

[Berniece]

), you only lose vs Pog

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Epic scenes! Tadej catching Remco during a TT. My memories on this one are a bit blurred though...

 

[HashRouge]

Before i put you on ignore, let me say this: There is nobody here claiming Evenepoel would or could have beaten Pogacar in the mountains in a GT. There is nobody claiming Evenepoel was better overall in 2022 or 2023. We are talking about specific cases. First of all, Evenepoel was grossly overweight at the start of 2022, coming off a bad 2021 season, as was evident in Tirreno Adriatico where he couldn't even follow a group of 20 riders i think. He got dropped by the likes of Vlasov in Valencia, lost GC on the last day of Itzulia to Martinez. But he was gradually getting stronger and thinner. Liège was the first time since 2020 where he was both at an acceptable weight and fully injury free. He then went on to show his form on Gaustoppen but failed in Suisse due to what was believed to have been a heatstroke. He then won Classica San Sebastian with another spectacular solo, then Vuelta and Worlds, the latter again with a solo after going in the attack 70k from the finish (his solo was 26km).

At the same time, Pogacar in 2022 had won exactly how many solos? Strade against a 41 year old and the mighty Asgreen who has had 2 good days since his RVV win. I think that's about it. You can deny all you want, but back then Pogacar had not shown any of what he now shows on a weekly basis. Look back at his results from 2020 to 2023 in Liège and Lombardia. His first solo win was in Lombardia '23. A solo win by 52 seconds to Bagioli... He used to wait for the sprint because he was relatively fast in a small bunch. That's how Pog won most of his 1 day races back then. The only long solos i remember of him all came from stages in stage races, which are obviously much shorter than LBL. Less than a week before LBL22, Pog didn't even make top 10 in Fleche. The week before LBL23 he got reeled back by Healy and he was suffering from fatigue. When i say it is disingenuous to state that Evenepoel could not have beaten Pogacar in LBL22/23 i take those conditions into account. Evenepoel was already known for long solos since 2018, he was known to be able to wreck people on the flat even in his wheel. Ask Masnada, ask Campenaerts, ask De Bondt, guys who died in his wheel in 2019 when he was 19. Evenepoel did not crush the opposition those years on La Redoute, he crushed them after La Redoute by setting the pace on the flat so hard that nobody was able to stay with him after already having gone deep on La Redoute. Even if you are unwilling to agree Evenepoel would have beaten Pogacar, which is not something i have ever expected or asked, surely there is the tiniest part in your brain that is capable of being objective and agree that under those conditions, according to the level and skillset both riders showed at that time, you can also not declare that Pogacar would have certainly beaten Evenepoel. This was my only point, towards the poster who claimed that the only reason Evenepoel won LBL those years, that Evenepoel could have won even if Pog was there. Never did i claim he would have won 100% guaranteed.

But clearly it is too much for your ego as a Pog fan to muster, to think that the second best rider in the world, on certain days under those conditions might have beaten your boy, even when we all have eyes and can see and compare how back in 2022/2023 he was not close to being the rider he is today.

That's it. Now on ignore.

My only issue with what you're saying is that you go too far in the other direction, and try and make Pogacar sound like he was absolutely terrible prior to 2024. He won RVV with a 17km solo in Spring 2023, he won three stages of the TdF in 2022, he won LBL and Lombardia in 2021. I appreciate that some of the extreme fanboys are probably winding you up a bit, but it does devalue your argument a bit when you try too hard to make Pogacar sound like he was absolutely hopeless and somehow lucked his way into winning one day races.

FWIW I also don't think there is any guarantee that Pogacar would have won LBL in 2022 and 2023.

 

[Berniece]

Epic scenes! Tadej catching Remco during a TT. My memories on this one are a bit blurred though...

That's okay, in this topic we don't really remember Evenepoel winning ever anyway.

 

[topt]

i imagine belgian fans will stick with this pic until Pog retires

 

[topt]

That's okay, in this topic we don't really remember Evenepoel winning ever anyway.

what is head to head score vs Pog ?

 

[AmRacer]

what is head to head score vs Pog ?

TT, RR or both? DNF's count?

Tadej Pogačar versus Remco Evenepoel

Head to head career results between Tadej PogaÄar and Remco Evenepoel. The overal score is 63.3% for Tadej PogaÄar versus 36.7% for Remco Evenepoel. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Berniece]

i imagine belgian fans will stick with this pic until Pog retires

Not sure what being Belgian has to do with it, and on top of that is it okay to use the picture when it was 2 weeks ago?

 

[AlpRaid]

i imagine belgian fans will stick with this pic until Pog retires

I'm not Belgian and I have plastered all the walls in my house with this image.

 

[KoopaCycling]

i rarely visit the vingegaard and pogacar part of this forum. yet Pogacar fans always find their way to the remco thread.
strange stuff. I almost think they're obsessed.

 

[AlpRaid]

My only issue with what you're saying is that you go too far in the other direction, and try and make Pogacar sound like he was absolutely terrible prior to 2024. He won RVV with a 17km solo in Spring 2023, he won three stages of the TdF in 2022, he won LBL and Lombardia in 2021. I appreciate that some of the extreme fanboys are probably winding you up a bit, but it does devalue your argument a bit when you try too hard to make Pogacar sound like he was absolutely hopeless and somehow lucked his way into winning one day races.

FWIW I also don't think there is any guarantee that Pogacar would have won LBL in 2022 and 2023.

fair. I think, however, it is my experience on a discussion board that qualifiers and balanced talk rarely win out. I honestly don't think @Logic-is-your-friend ever said or even intimated that Pog was "terrible" pre-2024. I know many remco "fans" like him (and myself) who will grant you that overall, Pog was still the best cyclist pre-2024. but he was definitely human, lost and could get dropped. and pre-2024, other than a couple of instances, it was really only Remco who had made the long solo victory a thing (something that he did from the beginning in the Juniors and many thought he would never be able to replicate in the pros). So, while not wanting to put words in @Logic-is-your-friend's mouth, I think he is simply pointing that out.

And the reality is, without Pog, remco would have continued his long solo wins at both Worlds and Euros. The gap between him and the rest is really in line with previous remco solos.

the difference is pog as of 2024 suddenly was able to do the same and even more. that's all. leaving remco behind, yes, sometimes way behind. but to also judge their qualities merely on the last two years is also to ignore a very different reality that preceded.