Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[kingjr]

today is more distorted than the 90s.

pogi and vingegaard are greater outliers than pantani and indurain were

The 90s were distorted by widespread use of the most effective drug the sport has ever known.

 

[kingjr]

It may not have been decades ago, but wasn’t there a significant boom in numbers post-COVID? Yes, so his point remains valid.

Whose numbers? And when exactly does "post-Covid" start?

 

[Netserk]

The 90s were distorted by widespread use of the most effective drug the sport has ever known.

this is not the clinic, please

whatever the cause is, sports science nowadays distorts the sport more

 

[kingjr]

this is not the clinic, please

whatever the cause is, sports science nowadays distorts the sport more

Would you mind going into a bit more detail as to how you think sports science distorts the sport today in ways not related to doping, and more so than EPO in the 90s?

You can respond in the clinic in whatever thread seems appropriate.

 

[Netserk]

Would you mind going into a bit more detail as to how you think sports science distorts the sport today in ways not related to doping, and more so than EPO in the 90s?

You can respond in the clinic in whatever thread seems appropriate.

i dont have a view behind the curtains, so i cant speak as to the mechanics

i can see the consequences, the state of the peloton

gaps are bigger now, dominant riders dominate more. a decade ago was the opposite, much smaller gaps than in the 90s

the long solo of gilbert in ronde was nothing like the long solo of pogi in rwanda. completely different worlds

 

[kingjr]

i dont have a view behind the curtains, so i cant speak as to the mechanics

i can see the consequences, the state of the peloton

gaps are bigger now, dominant riders dominate more. a decade ago was the opposite, much smaller gaps than in the 90s

the long solo of gilbert in ronde was nothing like the long solo of pogi in rwanda. completely different worlds

Most of these exploits come from a very small circle of riders (often just one, in fact). If we compare the performances of Gilbert and Pogacar, the main difference, IMO, is that Pogacar is inherently much better. It's something you see across all sports every now and then.

 

[Netserk]

Most of these exploits come from a very small circle of riders (often just one, in fact). If we compare the performances of Gilbert and Pogacar, the main difference, IMO, is that Pogacar is inherently much better. It's something you see across all sports every now and then.

and vingegaard is also just inherently much better than everyone but pogi
and rogla inherently so much better (for a while)
and van der poel inherently so much better

if you assume the conclusion, that the dominant riders dominate to this degree because of their inherent characteristics and not because of this age of cycling, sure

 

[Netserk]

weirdly enough, the dominant riders were all less dominant in 21 and 22

and much more dominant in 24 all of a sudden. and completely in lockstep.

 

[kingjr]

1) and vingegaard is also just inherently much better than everyone but pogi
2) and rogla inherently so much better (for a while)
3) and van der poel inherently so much better

4) if you assume the conclusion, that the dominant riders dominate to this degree because of their inherent characteristics and not because of this age of cycling, sure

1) In climbing, and to a lesser extent time-trialling, in a GT context and depending on the profile.
2)Roglic is versatile, consistent, and has a lethal finish. He's a bit like Valverde, except better in TTs and less good in one-day races.
3) He is much better only in certain races that suit his particular characteristics. The most striking example is Glasgow, which was a highly atypical course (and predates 2024, incidentally). In the Belgian classics, he's of course extremely strong, but he also benefits from van Aert being very unlucky and Pedersen being stupid. In GTs, he struggles mightily to win stages.

4) I assume that's the main factor, yes, with the caveats in 1-3 taken into account

 

[Red Rick]

It's hardly decades ago.

You might, but it's beside the point.

Mikel Landa gets 4th in the 2017 Tour and he gets 5th in the 2024 Tour.

Roglic is 4th in 2018 and then in 2025 he's in 5th place with bad preparation until he decided he couldn't care less about 5th.

Nibali gets 4th in this final Giro, 6 years after his last GT win. Valverde was 6th in his last Lombardia and got top 4 in the 3 races before that.

Yates wins the 2018 Vuelta and 2025 Giro.


Riders don't stick around getting similar results if the increase in W/kg isn't entirely circumstantial.

 

[kingjr]

Mikel Landa gets 4th in the 2017 Tour and he gets 5th in the 2024 Tour.

Roglic is 4th in 2018 and then in 2025 he's in 5th place with bad preparation until he decided he couldn't care less about 5th.

Nibali gets 4th in this final Giro, 6 years after his last GT win. Valverde was 6th in his last Lombardia and got top 4 in the 3 races before that.

Yates wins the 2018 Vuelta and 2025 Giro.


Riders don't stick around getting similar results if the increase in W/kg isn't entirely circumstantial.

Let me understand this: I said I see no reason to believe Froome or Contador would be a big threat to Pogacar or Vingegaard. And Landa finishing 4th in 2017, a good 2 minutes down, and finishing 5th in 2024, about 20 minutes down, is supposed to be evidence to the contrary?

As for Roglic, in 2018 he was still up and coming (as opposed to 2019 when he probably could have won it), finished a good 3 minutes behind Thomas, and in 2025 he's 25 minutes down. So what is it you're saying, exactly?

 

[Red Rick]

Let me understand this: I said I see no reason to believe Froome or Contador would be a big threat to Pogacar or Vingegaard. And Landa finishing 4th in 2017, a good 2 minutes down, and finishing 5th in 2024, about 20 minutes down, is supposed to be evidence to the contrary?

As for Roglic, in 2018 he was still up and coming (as opposed to 2019 when he probably could have won it), finished a good 3 minutes behind Thomas, and in 2025 he's 25 minutes down. So what is it you're saying, exactly?

Gaps are mostly due to overall aggression of the race.

Also, Pogacar has yet to win a Tour de France by a bigger gap than Nibali did.

 

[proffate]

I appears Froome was doing everything he can to be as lean as possible. Even things I would not recommend, such as fasted training and drinking only sparkling water and semi starving. And still, there was no apparent performance diminishment.
In, general I have never seen a pro rider say something akin to I was too lean so I did not do well on the Alpe. (This is possible, as I wrote earlier, but one needs to be doing some radical stuff).

It has been clear that there are drugs which suppress appetite (among other things) for quite some time now, so idk if I would call it a revolution. Nevertheless, it does not prove anything.
As I wrote earlier, what is important is to fuel your training well, train well, recover well and also very important to stay focused and disciplined (not just with food but with everything else in life).
That ensures that the body operates at its leanest point without sacrificing performance.
Edit: If we speak about Remco concretely, we have seen him leaner and performing well, so his current state is not even up for debate.

If you're trying to say glp drugs have not revolutionized weight management you're just being contrarian. The US recorded its first ever drop in adult obesity. Bariatric surgery is a thing of the past. Fortunes have been made by the pharma companies. None of this would be true if there had already existed safe and effective appetite suppressants. And if you have never seen someone struggle with the urge to make a moral judgment against their neighbor for using glp drugs to fix their relationship with food, you've just been living under a rock.

 

[kingjr]

Gaps are mostly due to overall aggression of the race.

Also, Pogacar has yet to win a Tour de France by a bigger gap than Nibali did.

Better riders are better able to successfully ride aggressively.
And Pogacar has yet to ride a Tour where his strongest rival is someone of the quality of Thibaut Pinot.

 

[Divergence]

If you're trying to say glp drugs have not revolutionized weight management you're just being contrarian. The US recorded its first ever drop in adult obesity. Bariatric surgery is a thing of the past. Fortunes have been made by the pharma companies. None of this would be true if there had already existed safe and effective appetite suppressants. And if you have never seen someone struggle with the urge to make a moral judgment against their neighbor for using glp drugs to fix their relationship with food, you've just been living under a rock.

Fist of all, you are talking about the general population here. I am talking about professional cyclists. Second, I am not be quite ready to proclaim that these drugs are "safe" appetite suppressants.
But, most importantly, it is not by using appetite suppressants how pro athletes would be reaching their maximum potential. Rather, one needs to eat so that one can train. In order not the go around snacking and having some beers one does not need appetite suppressants but rather higher level of discipline.
I will stop responding to you because I sense you have some personal connections to these issues and I am not interested in that.