The Roche Family and Irish Cycling

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 14h

HE'S A SPRINTER who is now climbing, for the most part, with climbers who have doped.

Sprinters are the fastest at the end of races, I see no reason why, with a little effort and dedication, they can't be the fastest over the whole race as well. After all, the only difference between 1km and 300km is 299 times 1km. A couple extra hours of training everyday (with the SRM turned off) should do it.

Yep. There was a certain one day racer who transformed himself in a top level GT rider simply by being on his bike 6 hours a day...

And then two other english-speaking riders came along and spent 6 more hours a day on their bikes. It's all about progress and evolution and such things. I'm looking forward to the first 24-hour cyclist.

 

[Benotti69]

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

 

[vedrafjord]

This is just my biased, Irish, no first hand knowledge opinion, but I always though Kelly and Roche Sr were extraordinarily tough, single-minded individuals who 'went native' when they went pro and although both were mostly on French teams, Kelly turned into a Belgian and Roche went Italian. They did whatever it took to win, on or off the road, dope included.

In contrast Nico had a handy enough youth and an ordained path into pro cycling. I don't think AG2R were that dirty during the years he was there and he hasn't had any massive jumps in performance since. There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big". I think he has a comfortable lifestyle and isn't prepared to do anything too risky (n.b not the same as being clean). He went from AG2R to Saxo and then Sky but stayed on pretty much the same level. He has the same physique as his dad, which was GC standard in the 80's, but can't hack it in the cortico/aicar age. I think his cousin Dan is more suspicious - given the level of climbing in the last Tour and the way they cancelled each other out in many stages, the whole top 10 is suspicious.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 14h

HE'S A SPRINTER who is now climbing, for the most part, with climbers who have doped.

Sprinters are the fastest at the end of races, I see no reason why, with a little effort and dedication, they can't be the fastest over the whole race as well. After all, the only difference between 1km and 300km is 299 times 1km. A couple extra hours of training everyday (with the SRM turned off) should do it.

Is this Roche or Dumoulin? Either way, neither has ever been a sprinter. Dumoulin was initially a TT'er and leadout who could punch over small hills and Roche was a puncheur at U23 level, who could hold on fairly well on longer climbs.

Neither has ever been considered a sprinter

see some of Roche's sprints in the Vuelta circa 2010/11. One of those years, he was consistently on the podium. See: guys like Greg van Avermaet, Kurt Asle Arvesen. Even O'Grady/Hincapie, never won a bunchie, but were always the indicated sprinter on their team in the first decade in the peloton. NB. Stuey M8 and Hincapie start career at 20/19. See: the Austrian guy, who was Cav's major domo Bernard Eisel.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big".

Seeing the subtext of doping there is wrong, sorry. I've interviewed Roche Snr and we talked about Jnr and the distinct impression Snr gave was that Jnr isn't all that serious, with this TT efforts the most obvious issue (no TT training for a long time, doesn't prepare himself for the ride mentally immediately ahead of it). Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and sometimes preparation really does just mean preparation.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big".

Seeing the subtext of doping there is wrong, sorry. I've interviewed Roche Snr and we talked about Jnr and the distinct impression Snr gave was that Jnr isn't all that serious, with this TT efforts the most obvious issue (no TT training for a long time, doesn't prepare himself for the ride mentally immediately ahead of it). Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and sometimes preparation really does just mean preparation.

...and why would a father carelessly implicate his son in an interview knowing the history of the sport? To say that doping is what Roche Sr meant by "preparation" is ludicrous.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

Maybe, actually, he's telling the truth? But of course that doesn't fit your narrative does it ...

Jeez <edited>, I mean Spud, always with the personal attacks always playing the man and not the ball.

Very easy to say i dont and never have doped. Doesn't make it true. Ask Marion, Lance, Carl etc etc....no doubt all your heroes.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big".

Seeing the subtext of doping there is wrong, sorry. I've interviewed Roche Snr and we talked about Jnr and the distinct impression Snr gave was that Jnr isn't all that serious, with this TT efforts the most obvious issue (no TT training for a long time, doesn't prepare himself for the ride mentally immediately ahead of it). Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and sometimes preparation really does just mean preparation.

Sure Fmk, Roche told you the truth, just like he tells everyone he never doped. Roche Snr is full of it. :lol:

Roche Snr was never big on preparation but he loved 'preparation'.

 

[yaco]

Kimmage and Benotti should be happy - A rider has publically spoken about Sky - And a rider who was on the team in 2015/2016 - What Roche inferred was he doesn't think much of Brailsford.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big".

Seeing the subtext of doping there is wrong, sorry. I've interviewed Roche Snr and we talked about Jnr and the distinct impression Snr gave was that Jnr isn't all that serious, with this TT efforts the most obvious issue (no TT training for a long time, doesn't prepare himself for the ride mentally immediately ahead of it). Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and sometimes preparation really does just mean preparation.

Sure Fmk, Roche told you the truth, just like he tells everyone he never doped. Roche Snr is full of it. :lol:

Roche Snr was never big on preparation but he loved 'preparation'.

I know Roche lied to me about doping, he was so eager to lie to me he brought the subject up. I have no illusions on that score: I'm no fan of Roche, of either of them, anybody who knows me knows that, never have been, never will be. What I am saying, however, is that people need to see the context of what was said: he is critical of Jnr's preparation, specifically for time trials. Talk to him and you'll see that. Listen to him and you'll see that. It's in his book, it's in Jnr's book, it's in interviews from both. But, once again, some don't want to see that, some want to see doping, doping, doping, always doping, 24/7, nothing but doping. Well, sadly, sometimes it's not about doping. But, believe what you want, I can't change your mind, all I can do is point out how ludicrous some of the things you say are.

 

[Dan2016]

Stephen Roche will always be a cycling god to me. He won the Tour when I first fell in love with the sport.
I met him once and didn't like him as a person at all.

With that pointless anecdote shared I'll get my coat...

 

[Dan2016]

Oh and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nico Roche is cleans, or at least low-octane 'grey-area' kinda-cleans cleans.
He's not really improved as he was expected to, that's a potential sign of team-cleans.com

We all accept some riders have been clean before, your Basson's, Gilles DeLion's, Moncoutie's etc. So no reason some current riders aren't.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Stephen Roche will always be a cycling god to me. He won the Tour when I first fell in love with the sport.
I met him once and didn't like him as a person at all.

With that pointless anecdote shared I'll get my coat...

Unlike you, I never liked him, ever. Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Millar ... hell, even Jeff Bernard, all were preferable to Roche. He always came across as such a little ***, with his butter-wouldn't-melt smile and stab-you-in-the-back attitude. I've always preferred my bastards to be upfront about their bastardry.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Oh and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nico Roche is cleans, or at least low-octane 'grey-area' kinda-cleans cleans.
He's not really improved as he was expected to, that's a potential sign of team-cleans.com

We all accept some riders have been clean before, your Basson's, Gilles DeLion's, Moncoutie's etc. So no reason some current riders aren't.

The Kimmage interview is always worth re-reading. Not just the part about him using L-Carnitine.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Stephen Roche will always be a cycling god to me. He won the Tour when I first fell in love with the sport.
I met him once and didn't like him as a person at all.

With that pointless anecdote shared I'll get my coat...

Unlike you, I never liked him, ever. Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Millar ... hell, even Jeff Bernard, all were preferable to Roche. He always came across as such a little ****, with his butter-wouldn't-melt smile and stab-you-in-the-back attitude. I've always preferred my bastards to be upfront about their bastardry.

Yeah I know what you mean. He was a tough bastard though wasn't he, mentally. I admired that. The way he won the Giro for example in '87, against the whole Italian cycling mafia, including his own team. I think I was probs too young at the time to pay attention to his general character. But yeah, didn't like him in person when I met 'em.

 

[Dan2016]

And Kelly is the ultimate cycling god. I don't give a stuff about what he was taking. Just magic, the racing.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Oh and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nico Roche is cleans, or at least low-octane 'grey-area' kinda-cleans cleans.
He's not really improved as he was expected to, that's a potential sign of team-cleans.com

We all accept some riders have been clean before, your Basson's, Gilles DeLion's, Moncoutie's etc. So no reason some current riders aren't.

The Kimmage interview is always worth re-reading. Not just the part about him using L-Carnitine.

Yup, haven't read it yet, gonna have a look this evening.
L-Carnitine, interesting. Ala Salazar crazy high doses I wonder?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Yeah I know what you mean. He was a tough bastard though wasn't he, mentally. I admired that. The way he won the Giro for example in '87, against the whole Italian cycling mafia, including his own team. I think I was probs too young at the time to pay attention to his general character. But yeah, didn't like him in person when I met 'em.

'87 was definitely a story. Or loads of stories. But I never see Roche as the hero of them, not really.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

Maybe, actually, he's telling the truth? But of course that doesn't fit your narrative does it ...

Jeez Martin, I mean Spud, always with the personal attacks always playing the man and not the ball.

Very easy to say i dont and never have doped. Doesn't make it true. Ask Marion, Lance, Carl etc etc....no doubt all your heroes.

Calling me Martin is both a personal attack and also a sockpuppet accusation, which as you know is against the rules ...

And there is a narrative here that everyone dopes, so I'm quite within my rights to make my comment.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

There was an interview with his dad where he was saying "Nico needs to up his preparation" and it read pretty much like "my son needs to dope properly if he's going to win big".

Seeing the subtext of doping there is wrong, sorry. I've interviewed Roche Snr and we talked about Jnr and the distinct impression Snr gave was that Jnr isn't all that serious, with this TT efforts the most obvious issue (no TT training for a long time, doesn't prepare himself for the ride mentally immediately ahead of it). Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and sometimes preparation really does just mean preparation.

Sure Fmk, Roche told you the truth, just like he tells everyone he never doped. Roche Snr is full of it. :lol:

Roche Snr was never big on preparation but he loved 'preparation'.

I know Roche lied to me about doping, he was so eager to lie to me he brought the subject up. I have no illusions on that score: I'm no fan of Roche, of either of them, anybody who knows me knows that, never have been, never will be. What I am saying, however, is that people need to see the context of what was said: he is critical of Jnr's preparation, specifically for time trials. Talk to him and you'll see that. Listen to him and you'll see that. It's in his book, it's in Jnr's book, it's in interviews from both. But, once again, some don't want to see that, some want to see doping, doping, doping, always doping, 24/7, nothing but doping. Well, sadly, sometimes it's not about doping. But, believe what you want, I can't change your mind, all I can do is point out how ludicrous some of the things you say are.

doping doping doping. Well it is the clinic. I have discussed other matters about the sport, but in the relevant parts of the forum.

Some people take a little piece of picture and use that to judge the whole.

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Stephen Roche will always be a cycling god to me. He won the Tour when I first fell in love with the sport.
I met him once and didn't like him as a person at all.

With that pointless anecdote shared I'll get my coat...

Me too - it was the first time a nearly British rider got the Yellow jersey! La Plagne will always be in my memory (incidentally happens to be my favourite ski resort - everytime the coach goes up the hairpins I relive the memories).

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

Maybe, actually, he's telling the truth? But of course that doesn't fit your narrative does it ...

Jeez Martin, I mean Spud, always with the personal attacks always playing the man and not the ball.

Very easy to say i dont and never have doped. Doesn't make it true. Ask Marion, Lance, Carl etc etc....no doubt all your heroes.

But he's writing about the allegations of doping at Team Sky, so what he said is more appropriate than what you and the other New Puritans demand he should say. But, appropriate, who cares, just hang the bastard.

New puritans is that code for bone idle.......

I'll call him out for not calling it simply. Roche claimed to Kimmage he trained for hours on a slice of toast to try and lose weight. Right of course he did. Not hanging anyone today, but lets be under no illusions, puhleeease.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

Maybe, actually, he's telling the truth? But of course that doesn't fit your narrative does it ...

Jeez Martin, I mean Spud, always with the personal attacks always playing the man and not the ball.

Very easy to say i dont and never have doped. Doesn't make it true. Ask Marion, Lance, Carl etc etc....no doubt all your heroes.

Carl = Carl Lewis no doubt? No not my hero - too vocal in calling out Johnson (correctly, but hypocritically).
Marion Jones - no thoughts either way, not really in to track and field, but clearly a cheat.
Lance - yeah, I liked the way he rode / won. To be honest I had been off cycling for about 10 years from 94->04, not for any specific reason other than I was just starting working, spent more time skiing, etc. So 2005 was the year I got back in to it - pre big internet days. It made the Tour a great spectacle. Wasnt really until 07/08/09 that paid more attention to things.

Nico Roche? Again no thoughts either way, but he could quite easily have said nothing, not done interviews about Sky. Why come out and say "I'm clean and never saw anything" IF there was a chance he could be caught / implicated? Better to remain silent, keep your head down, take the $.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Nico writing in the Irish independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/nicolas-roche-like-froome-i-wouldnt-sign-statement-backing-brailsford-35514769.html

The truth is, in my two years at Team Sky I was never asked to do anything that broke or even bent the anti-doping laws, either legally or ethically.

So hard to say i dont dope, didn't dope and i ride clean.

Maybe, actually, he's telling the truth? But of course that doesn't fit your narrative does it ...

Jeez Martin, I mean Spud, always with the personal attacks always playing the man and not the ball.

Very easy to say i dont and never have doped. Doesn't make it true. Ask Marion, Lance, Carl etc etc....no doubt all your heroes.

Carl = Carl Lewis no doubt? No not my hero - too vocal in calling out Johnson (correctly, but hypocritically).
Marion Jones - no thoughts either way, not really in to track and field, but clearly a cheat.
Lance - yeah, I liked the way he rode / won. To be honest I had been off cycling for about 10 years from 94->04, not for any specific reason other than I was just starting working, spent more time skiing, etc. So 2005 was the year I got back in to it - pre big internet days. It made the Tour a great spectacle. Wasnt really until 07/08/09 that paid more attention to things.

Nico Roche? Again no thoughts either way, but he could quite easily have said nothing, not done interviews about Sky. Why come out and say "I'm clean and never saw anything" IF there was a chance he could be caught / implicated? Better to remain silent, keep your head down, take the $.

Roche has a team so is building a brand, hence the articles. He also probably wants more than the hotel or cafe bar after he hangs up his bike.

Hence the need to comment, but say little. Branding.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Roche has a team so is building a brand, hence the articles. He also probably wants more than the hotel or cafe bar after he hangs up his bike.

Hence the need to comment, but say little. Branding.

Interesting point about Nico - do you think he has earnt more as a cyclist than his dad (even accounting for the TDF win)? My impression is the $ are better now (not saying massive, but better)? To be honest if I could retire to a paid for B&B / Hotel in the Alps / Pyrenees with a half decent pension and enjoy the area I used to ride for my job then I would. But hey, thats me.