The Roche Family and Irish Cycling

[Dr. Maserati]

Doc, lighten up.

My opinions are my opnions and i am not claiming to any thing other. I constantly have asked for posters to point to where the sport cleanED up. I cant see it. Just because a vested interest says it has and one who cheated in his own career, i'll take that with a pinch of salt thanks. You can take it as gospel if you so choose.

Their are a few good guys in the sport, a few, and i dont believe JV is one of them nor do i have proof he is a doping DS, no more than i have proof Froome doped. But i will voice my opinion no matter the barrage of pedantism from you or anyone else.

keep on pedanting.

I will, thanks.

The blue is a strawman (yet again) and this isn't the JV thread - bring your obsession with him there.

This is thread is about Roche - you say its just an opinion, but why throw in the team he joined when you deflect to answer which team he should join to avoid suspicion?

 

[pmcg76]

Dont know how Voet managed to propel Bassons into the spotlight. Bassons didn't have to write a column and could've done a Nico Roche omerta style column as well.

The current situation in the peloton is really unknown and no one is comparing it to the 90s at the moment but Sky have upped the game so it may get back there sooner than even JV thinks.

When a current DS opens his mouth about the sport being cleanER the i think liar.

For me to dope is to cheat and it is a line. when one crosses that line it is cheating. Not cheating more or cheating less. It is cheating. So whether it is a full blood bag or half a blood bag it is cheating.

You don't know how Voet propelled Basson's into the limelight??? It was Voet who said Basson's was clean at Festina and the media jumped on the fact that there was a clean rider on a doped up team and a French newspaper handed him a column for the 99 Tour. Nice way to get his face in the paper!!

Same way that it was Gaumont who helped Moncoutie get a reputation as a clean rider.

If the current situation in the peloton is unknown(according to you), how can you then say 95% of the peloton are doping??

Also how can the peloton get back to what it was in the 90s if it never got any cleanER as you always claim. I thought JV saying things were cleaner was BS.

Oh wait, I get this now, Roche is doping because he doesn't talk about doping but if a rider or manager does speak about doping, they can only do so in a negative light or call riders out without any verifiable proof, otherwise they are lying.

More amazing thoughtful logic from Benotti.

 

[Benotti69]

I will, thanks.

The blue is a strawman (yet again) and this isn't the JV thread - bring your obsession with him there.

This is thread is about Roche - you say its just an opinion, but why throw in the team he joined when you deflect to answer which team he should join to avoid suspicion?

There is no team above suspicion imo.

I can find examples on every team of doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There is no team above suspicion imo.

I can find examples on every team of doping.

Ya, you introduced a straw man - we get it.

 

[Benotti69]

You don't know how Voet propelled Basson's into the limelight??? It was Voet who said Basson's was clean at Festina and the media jumped on the fact that there was a clean rider on a doped up team and a French newspaper handed him a column for the 99 Tour. Nice way to get his face in the paper!!

He could've said no.

If the current situation in the peloton is unknown(according to you), how can you then say 95% of the peloton are doping??

How can anyone know? I see doping everywhere in the sport, DS's, doctors, ex riders etc etc etc

Also how can the peloton get back to what it was in the 90s if it never got any cleanER as you always claim. I thought JV saying things were cleaner was BS.

JV was caling that big races could be won clean. I doubt that.

Oh wait, I get this now, Roche is doping because he doesn't talk about doping but if a rider or manager does speak about doping, they can only do so in a negative light or call riders out without any verifiable proof, otherwise they are lying.

Bassons talked about 2 speeds. What has Roche talked about? Does he think a 41 year old can win a GT? Seems like it.

More amazing thoughtful logic from Benotti.

I am glad i am pleasing my clinician fans. You're welcome.

 

[pmcg76]

He could've said no.

And pass up on his moment of fame, unlikely.

How can anyone know? I see doping everywhere in the sport, DS's, doctors, ex riders etc etc etc

If nobody knows, then how can you say 95% are doping. That is a fallacy regardless of what DS's, doctors or ex riders are in the sport. Are you saying that there is a zero % chance that peoples' mentalities can change over time.


JV was caling that big races could be won clean. I doubt that.

I have never heard JV say big races, he has said people can now win clean numerous times. Never heard his specify which races. Got to go Dr.Mas here but if you can provide a link to this, I will change my mind. Also JV has said things can change again which appears to be happening.


Bassons talked about 2 speeds. What has Roche talked about? Does he think a 41 year old can win a GT? Seems like it.

Basson's was hired to talk about doping, you know, the reason he got the job in the first place as a non doping rider. The French were talking about two speeds long before Basson's mentioned it. It was in fact his team-mate Jean-Cyril Robin who first talked about cycling at deux vitesse in Paris-Nice that same year.

Again just because Roche doesn't call out Horner doesn't mean he thinks Horner is clean. Moncoutie never called anybody out.

I am glad i am pleasing my clinician fans. You're welcome.

Pity you gave the half brain cell to sniper for the night

 

[pmcg76]

He could've said no.




How can anyone know? I see doping everywhere in the sport, DS's, doctors, ex riders etc etc etc



JV was caling that big races could be won clean. I doubt that.




Bassons talked about 2 speeds. What has Roche talked about? Does he think a 41 year old can win a GT? Seems like it.



I am glad i am pleasing my clinician fans. You're welcome.

So you still don't know how much actual doping there is in the sport but will claim to know so anyway.

Of course you doubt what JV says, you ain't got anything else.

So cyclists should only have blogs/column's if it's always about doping.

 

[elduggo]

I suppose you believed Lance when he said never tested positive

Comparing Nicholas Roche to Lance Armstrong....

the mind boggles

 

[Benotti69]

Comparing Nicholas Roche to Lance Armstrong....

the mind boggles

Lance was protected by UCI, is it not comparable to say the Nico could be protected by McQuaid? Not really mind boggling nor is far fetched to guess at when you stop the old mind from boggling and think about the history of those running this sport. McQuiad tried to hide Contador's positive.

 

[Benotti69]

An amateur team?

Carrick on Suir wheelers

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

You don't know how Voet propelled Basson's into the limelight??? It was Voet who said Basson's was clean at Festina and the media jumped on the fact that there was a clean rider on a doped up team and a French newspaper handed him a column for the 99 Tour. Nice way to get his face in the paper!!

Same way that it was Gaumont who helped Moncoutie get a reputation as a clean rider.

If the current situation in the peloton is unknown(according to you), how can you then say 95% of the peloton are doping??

Also how can the peloton get back to what it was in the 90s if it never got any cleanER as you always claim. I thought JV saying things were cleaner was BS.

Oh wait, I get this now, Roche is doping because he doesn't talk about doping but if a rider or manager does speak about doping, they can only do so in a negative light or call riders out without any verifiable proof, otherwise they are lying.

More amazing thoughtful logic from Benotti.

You have more patience than I.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

The dude with the old batman thang is crazy beyond noncesens
ical.Really, where is the touching base with life element? Completely, unadulteradedly off his rocker. Daily life looks like what??

 

[Cycle Chic]

...personal attack deleted by mods...

isn't that a personal attack ? wheres the mods ?

 

[sittingbison]

... personal attack ? wheres the mods ?

CC Instead of this silly rhetorical post, report a suspect post. That way all mods get an email alert, rather than relying on a couple of mods to read every post in every thread

Capiche?

 

[hiero2]

I do not believe, as stated many times, that there are any clean teams in pro cycling.

That does not mean 100% riders are doping, 95% are but the pointy end is a pharmacists wet dream, but that is just my opinion, which you like to chase me around the clinic and pedanticise. Ever tried online dating Doc? surely there must a be she or he pedantists out there for you too.

So, it was a strawman - then a deflection and now you have added in personal insults. Good job.
Thanks.

Dr Mas is quite correct here. "Online dating", "pedantist" - are definitely personal attacks. Beno - you should have stopped after "wet dream".

You don't know how Voet propelled Basson's into the limelight??? It was Voet who said Basson's was clean at Festina and the media jumped on the fact that there was a clean rider on a doped up team and a French newspaper handed him a column for the 99 Tour. Nice way to get his face in the paper!!

Same way that it was Gaumont who helped Moncoutie get a reputation as a clean rider.

If the current situation in the peloton is unknown(according to you), how can you then say 95% of the peloton are doping??

Also how can the peloton get back to what it was in the 90s if it never got any cleanER as you always claim. I thought JV saying things were cleaner was BS.

Oh wait, I get this now, Roche is doping because he doesn't talk about doping but if a rider or manager does speak about doping, they can only do so in a negative light or call riders out without any verifiable proof, otherwise they are lying.

More amazing thoughtful logic from Benotti.

I included this quote because this post should have stopped after the next to last paragraph. The last paragraph is unnecessary, and undesirable.

Let's all put a chill on. Cool off. We disagree. Stop with the personal remarks because we disagree. Btw - I have no problem with calling out someone elses LOGIC - and pointing out rhetological fallacy - my patience does not extend to making it personal.

 

[Benotti69]

Dr Mas is quite correct here. "Online dating", "pedantist" - are definitely personal attacks. Beno - you should have stopped after "wet dream".

I guess some people dont have a sense of humour.

 

[BroDeal]

I guess some people dont have a sense of humour.

This is part of the mods new plan to make their job easier by driving everyone away from the forum.

 

[the sceptic]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-welcomes-riis-role-in-tinkoff-saxo-set-up

“That’s something I’m really looking forward to,” Roche told Cyclingnews. “When Bjarne’s around, the team is just that extra bit focused and that brings some extra excitement to the race. He comes with ideas that change the profile of the race. He takes the extra bit of risk in races, when maybe some sports directors mightn’t be ready to take the risk, which is normal too.”

Bjarne Riis, the danish JV. Its nice to know that he is working so hard to make his riders perform clean now.

“It’s more finances to organise training camps and things like that. I can only see it being beneficial,” Roche said. “I don’t think racing makes you progress – training makes you progress. And training camps are a lot more costly than racing. For young riders, when you want to show them how to train and teach them about diet, you can only do it on training camps. So if we’re going to have more training camps, that can only be beneficial for top riders but also for the young riders who learn a lot from that.”

I think saxo is about to discover the magic or marginal gains.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-welcomes-riis-role-in-tinkoff-saxo-set-up



Bjarne Riis, the danish JV. Its nice to know that he is working so hard to make his riders perform clean now.



I think saxo is about to discover the magic or marginal gains.

Roche, Contador, Kreuziger and CAS will group ride the Tourmalet at 6,3 W/Kg next year. Rogers will be up the road.

Who will drive the flats for 70-100km now that Noval is gone?

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-welcomes-riis-role-in-tinkoff-saxo-set-up



Bjarne Riis, the danish JV. Its nice to know that he is working so hard to make his riders perform clean now.



I think saxo is about to discover the magic or marginal gains.

So it seems Roche is outlining the importance of training. Hmmm boy does that paragraph scream doping at training is the key to the sport.

 

[blackcat]

Riis was doing the pre-season camps in the arctic waters and trying to drown Basso (he could not swim)

Everyone would have seen Overcoming.

propaganda Bernays and Goebbels would be proud of

 

[elduggo]

doping at training is the key to the sport.

does that surprise you?

 

[The Hitch]

So it seems Roche is outlining the importance of training. Hmmm boy does that paragraph scream doping at training is the key to the sport.

Well training is important for clean athletes too. Theres nothing wrong with saying training is important. Didn't Lemond say something like- to get good, just ride as much as possible. Its when people say that training is an alternative to doping, that I think should raise the eyebrows, not if they just say it matters.

 

[Benotti69]

does that surprise you?

nope.

10chara

 

[sniper]

Well training is important for clean athletes too. Theres nothing wrong with saying training is important. Didn't Lemond say something like- to get good, just ride as much as possible. Its when people say that training is an alternative to doping, that I think should raise the eyebrows, not if they just say it matters.

he doesnt just say traiing matters. he says

Roche said. "I don't think racing makes you progress"

that statement only rings true if training is the time and place where you juice up.

and notice the circularity in his argument:

For young riders, when you want to show them how to train and teach them about diet, you can only do it on training camps

what an insight.

as for teaching yong riders about dietary issues, i don't see how you couldn't do that during normal races.