The Sky-Con-O-Meter. Predictions on how much more ridiculous they can get

[BroDeal]

3. Bradley is not very consistent due to his immense love for Lance even though the amount of evidence is beyond hilarious.

Ricco admired Pantani. Wiggins admires Armstrong. Coincidence?

 

[Square-pedaller]

Okay, I'll bite.
So, back to Sky. They had a very strong anti-doping message right from the off, they refused to hire any riders or team members who ever had anything to do with doping (which is why they won't hire David Millar - thankfully), and Bradley Wiggins has consistently spoken out against dopers. Dave Brailsford is flinty-eyed with determination to win the Tour clean.
No.

So if Brailsford's so anti-doping, why has he appointed Millar to ride in the Olympics? The CAS ruling says that a blanket ban is 'illegal', but I'm sure that Brailsford could find a reason not to appoint him if he didn't want to.

 

[Krebs cycle]

We all know about Albi. How many more results like that can you find?

He wasn't consistently up there. He was good, but not world-class. Simple as that.

Not world class? And you ask me to keep a straight face? Take a look at his track pursuit records. Wiggins is probably the most successful track endurance cyclist of the past 10yrs and one of the most successful of all time. In 2008 he won 3 olympic gold medals and 2 world championship gold medals. If that isn't "world class" then you're delusional. Oh but wait, I totally forgot, 4min is a completely different event compared to a road ITT right? Maybe you should look at other sports such as distance running and you'll find that it is quite common for world class 1500m and 5km runners to extend their distances out as they get older and then still produce world class performances in 10km and even at marathon distance. Not everyone has the ability to do this because some athletes produce the energy required for a 4min event with a high percentage coming from anaerobic sources, but if you are on the other end of the spectrum and produce a high proportion of energy from aerobic sources (ie: genetically slow twitch), then there is a high probability that you will also be successful at longer distances. This is backed up by plenty of evidence, coming from both race results and scientific studies. Oh but wait, why haven't other track endurance riders won the TdF? Gee I don't know, maybe umm they didn't dedicate their life for 4yr to achieving that goal? Maybe they were naturally more anaerobic and didn't have the right physiology for it? Maybe they did try and just didn't prepare effectively or have a strong team? There are so many non-doping variables but its like all you guys can think of is doping doping doping to explain ups and downs in performance.

And for the "losing weight" naysayers, you guys obviously have little clue about the relationships between mass scaling, aerodynamics and power to weight ratio changes that are possible with weight change. When Cadel Evans was a mtn biker, he dedicated one off season (6 months, that is all) to losing weight. He dropped from around 68kg down to 63kg and guess what, his w/kg went up and that year he won the mtb world series. Michael Rogers was a TT specialist. He also lost weight and his w/kg went up and now he is able to climb with the leaders. It is not an easy thing to do, but it is possible and I know for a fact the Brits have one of the best cycling sport scientists on the planet in Wiggins' corner in Peter Keene.

Again, I'm not saying that Wiggins or Team Sky (or anyone else for that matter) are definitely NOT doping, I'm merely pointing to the fact that you guys are assuming that he is doping based on evidence that is non-existent, and you keep using race results as your primary measure which completely ignores the huge role that both overall preparation and team tactics plays. You keep saying that he had a massive performance change from 2008 to 2009 but in track and road ITT results he didn't show that at all, he got a little bit better and you would expect that if he changed his focus to the tour following Beijing. The lot of you also seem to be forgetting that the biopassport was introduced in 2008 and around that time we start to see a gradual decline in overall performance compared with the previous 10-12yrs.

 

[BroDeal]

And for the "losing weight" naysayers, you guys obviously have little clue about the relationships between mass scaling, aerodynamics and power to weight ratio changes that are possible with weight change. When Cadel Evans was a mtn biker, he dedicated one off season (6 months, that is all) to losing weight. He dropped from around 68kg down to 63kg and guess what, his w/kg went up and that year he won the mtb world series. Michael Rogers was a TT specialist. He also lost weight and his w/kg went up and now he is able to climb with the leaders. It is not an easy thing to do, but it is possible and I know for a fact the Brits have one of the best cycling sport scientists on the planet in Wiggins' corner in Peter Keene.

I am sure Dr. Ferrari never bothered to tell Rogers that it might be a good idea to lose a bit of weight. No one at Freiburg University bothered to mention it to him either.

Come on! It does not take the best cycling sport scientist in the world to figure out that minimizing weight is a good idea. Did Rogers hit thirty-two years of age after more than a decade as a pro and decide that he was a fat bastard who needed to lose the chub?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So, back to Sky. They had a very strong anti-doping message right from the off, they refused to hire any riders or team members who ever had anything to do with doping (which is why they won't hire David Millar - thankfully), and Bradley Wiggins has consistently spoken out against dopers. Dave Brailsford is flinty-eyed with determination to win the Tour clean.

Kurt-Asle Arvesen (2010-11) - 6 years with Bjarne Riis' CSC team
Michael Barry (2010-12) - 5 years with USPS/Discovery and a year with T-Mobile
Dario Cioni (2010-11) - 3 years with Mapei
Mick Rogers (2011-12) - 3 years with Mapei and 2 with T-Mobile, named in Freiburg investigation

There's also a bunch of guys they've hired who've been a part of the latter day T-Mobile, Leinders-era Rabobank where we now know doping was tolerated, and Barloworld, which is hardly a shining beacon of cleanliness.

Not world class? And you ask me to keep a straight face? Take a look at his track pursuit records. Wiggins is probably the most successful track endurance cyclist of the past 10yrs. In 2008 he won 3 olympic gold medals and 2 world championship gold medals. If that isn't "world class" then you're delusional. Oh but wait, I totally forgot, 4min is a completely different event compared to a road ITT right? Maybe you should look at other sports such as distance running and you'll find that it is quite common for world class 1500m and 5km runners to extend their distances out as they get older and then still produce world class performances in 10km and even at marathon distance.

Wiggins was world class on the track, and depending on your definition world class on the road in the ITTs. But he was, until 2009, the kind of time triallist that David Millar or Dave Zabriskie are now, in long time trials. Can do a very good one, but wouldn't beat the top guns with any regularity. He was good, very good in fact, but this year he has won every TT over 9km he's entered, and been 2nd in all but one of the rest. That is a HUGE improvement over what he used to do, and in those days he wasn't controlling the péloton, or fighting for the lead in mountain stages... he was coming in with the grupetto, saving energy so he could come 5th in the time trial.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I am sure Dr. Ferrari never bothered to tell Rogers that it might be a good idea to lose a bit of weight. No one at Freiburg University bothered to mention it to him either.

Come on! It does not take the best cycling sport scientist in the world to figure out that minimizing weight is a good idea. Did Rogers hit thirty-two years of age after more than a decade as a pro and decide that he was a fat bastard who needed to lose the chub?

So why do some of you scoff at the idea that losing weight can improve w/kg and thus hill climbing ability? Lance has corrupted the idea I know and that was of course part of his propaganda campaign, but if it doesn't take a genius to work out that if you drop 6 or 7kgs you can go faster uphill, then why do you need to invoke a doping cause of Wiggins' improved hill climbing ability in 2009 when he did just that? I was suspicious of him back then, but I am accepting that it is possible. I don't accept that the best hill climbing performances of Lance Armstrong are physiologically possible without PEDs.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Wiggins was world class on the track, and depending on your definition world class on the road in the ITTs. But he was, until 2009, the kind of time triallist that David Millar or Dave Zabriskie are now, in long time trials. Can do a very good one, but wouldn't beat the top guns with any regularity. He was good, very good in fact, but this year he has won every TT over 9km he's entered, and been 2nd in all but one of the rest. That is a HUGE improvement over what he used to do, and in those days he wasn't controlling the péloton, or fighting for the lead in mountain stages... he was coming in with the grupetto, saving energy so he could come 5th in the time trial.

Yes I agree with all that, but I'm telling you that if you have a world beating 4min average power output relative to frontal surface area, then it is not a very large leap to alter your focus and turn that into a world class 40-60min average power. This is something that could possibly be achieved in a single year (as long as you have the right physiology to begin with ie: mainly aerobic), but here you are talking about a change over a 4yr period. It is entirely plausible without having to invoke doping.

The scientific literature it awash with significant correlations between PPO on step tests and average power in 40min TTs. I'm also hearing a lot of talk about peak 4min and peak 30min watts in SRM training data files being associated with best on road performances.

 

[hrotha]

I'm not replying to Valley since he called me either an idiot or an autist just like that. Gratuituous stuff.

Not world class? And you ask me to keep a straight face? Take a look at his track pursuit records.

ON THE ROAD

How many times do we have to go over this? Wiggins wasn't producing world-class ITTs on the road, and he had been riding on the road for a while.

 

[BroDeal]

So why do some of you scoff at the idea that losing weight can improve w/kg and thus hill climbing ability? Lance has corrupted the idea I know and that was of course part of his propaganda campaign, but if it doesn't take a genius to work out that if you drop 6 or 7kgs you can go faster uphill, then why do you need to invoke a doping cause of Wiggins' improved hill climbing ability in 2009 when he did just that? I was suspicious of him back then, but I am accepting that it is possible. I don't accept that the best hill climbing performances of Lance Armstrong are physiologically possible without PEDs.

We are not scoffing at the idea of losing weight. We are scoffing at the idea that Rogers (or anyone else for that matter) spent a decade as a pro, a good portion of it with stage racing hopes, but did not decide to pare his weight down until joining Sky. It's ludicrous. I am not a pro. For ultra endurance races I have used some extreme measures to drop my weight. But a pro paying 10% or 15% of his income to Dr. Ferrari could not figure this out or at least get a hint from the good doctor?

I already wrote that I suspect with the bio passport reducing the amount of blood manipulation possible, the pros have turned to drug induced extreme weight loss. It makes sense. One avenue of performance increase gets curtailed so other avenues are utilized.

 

[BroDeal]

After Wiggins and Froome, Rogers is the next best placed sky rider at 33min back. Porte is 51min back. RadioShack, NOT Team Sky, are leading the teams classification.

Only 9mins separates the top 10 riders, last year 10min also separated the top 10, yet all the way through the 70s and 80s, there is 20-30min separating the top 10. In 1979 the 10th placed rider was a whopping 44min back. In 1981 Hinault was 14min ahead of the 2nd place getter.

So either everyone needs to revise the idea that the 70s and 80s were a "clean" era and start claiming that Merckx, Hinault and Fignon were all doping in order to be so far ahead RELATIVE to the peloton, or accept the truth that Wiggins and Froome are no further ahead of the rest than Cadel was last year, or Shleck the yr before that, or Contador the year before that. You also need to accept the fact that the whole lot of them are climbing SLOWER than the EPO era bad boys or Contador and Shleck at their best.

Now this is completely ridicuous.

1) Porte and Rogers are being used as domestiques. They have been ordered to take it easy when possible. Their time is no more relevant than the time of George Hincapie.

2) Racing in the 70's and 80's was completely different. Riders used to be able to gain minutes in a single mountain stage. Those eras cannot be compared to the present one.

3) I have no idea what you are trying to prove by saying that Wiggins/Froome are no further ahead than the first dopers were in previous Tour de EPOs.

If Evans was leading then there would not be the same suspicions because it would make sense. This year makes as much sense as Stephen Schumacher smashing the field in time trials and on the road.

 

[Krebs cycle]

ON THE ROAD

How many times do we have to go over this? Wiggins wasn't producing world-class ITTs on the road, and he had been riding on the road for a while.

So what? How many times do you need to be reminded that from 2004-2008 the olympic games was his focus NOT road racing?

 

[BroDeal]

So what? How many times do you need to be reminded that from 2004-2008 the olympic games was his focus NOT road racing?

There is a four year gap between 2004 and 2008, three if the whole of the last year is used for Olympic preparation. Wiggins was racing professionally on the road during that time. In fact he was racing on FdJ in 2002. It is not like he started racing on the road in 2009.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Now this is completely ridicuous.

1) Porte and Rogers are being used as domestiques. They have been ordered to take it easy when possible. There time is no more relevant than the time of George Hincapie.

Pot kettle back my friend. You're primary "evidence" that Wiggins magically improved from circa 2007 to 2009 is his GC placing, but here you say "oh we can't use GC placing to explain Porte and Rogers because of team tactics". You want to have your cake and eat it too Bro!!

2) Racing in the 70's and 80's was completely different. Riders used to be able to gain minutes in a single mountain stage. Those eras cannot be compared to the present one.

Well the question is why were those riders able to gain minutes on a single mtn stage without using EPO? We all know that no amount of team tactics makes a difference in that environment. It is your ability and form that create the differences. Even without EPO it is possible to take minutes, so why the need to invoke doping when Wiggins can't even take a second off Nibali in the mtns?

Oh yes, Wiggins was never a mtn climber, showed no ability in the mtns, no potential yada yada. Please stop using this as your evidence because it simply ignores the fact that this was not his focus pre 2008.

Srsly, do you guys think that genetics, training and preparation have anything to do with performance?

3) I have no idea what you are trying to prove by saying that Wiggins/Froome are no further ahead than the first dopers were in previous Tour de EPOs.

If Evans was leading then there would not be the same suspicions because it would make sense. This year makes as much sense as Stephen Schumacher smashing the field in time trials and on the road.

Others are stating that Team Sky are miles ahead relative to the peloton and this is evidence of doping. Well they aren't miles ahead, that is just made up stuff.

 

[BroDeal]

Oh yes, Wiggins was never a mtn climber, showed no ability in the mtns, no potential yada yada. Please stop using this as your evidence because it simply ignores the fact that this was not his focus pre 2008.

So pre 2008 Wiggins focus was not time trialing on the road. It was not climbing. What the hell was he doing while racing in Europe? Did FdJ, CA, Cofidis, and Highroad hire him to pilot the autobus for six years?

 

[Krebs cycle]

There is a four year gap between 2004 and 2008, three if the whole of the last year is used for Olympic preparation. Wiggins was racing professionally on the road during that time. In fact he was racing on FdJ in 2002. It is not like he started racing on the road in 2009.

So what is the problem? This is the thing that boggles my mind about your reasoning, he has been road racing professionally for 10yrs but you (or others) say that its not possible for a track rider to be a successful road racer?

You are all pointing at 2008-2009 as the period in which he had an epihpany and suddenly decides to become a doper at a time when it has become more difficult than ever before, but seem to ignore that fact that track was his focus up until the 2008 Olympics.

I do not believe that it is possible to be world class on the track AND on the road at the same time, but none of you seem to think there is any cross over, that if you alter your focus from one to the other you cannot be successful. I believe there is cross over and guys like Brad McGee, Stuart O'Grady and Chris Boardman also demonstrate this and there is an abundance of evidence from distance running that also demonstrates the same phenomenon. All Wiggins has done is taken it a step further and demonstrated that you can win.

 

[Krebs cycle]

So pre 2008 Wiggins focus was not time trialing on the road. It was not climbing. What the hell was he doing while racing in Europe? Did FdJ, CA, Cofidis, and Highroad hire him to pilot the autobus for six years?

Training for track endurance obviously. You do realize that every world record mens team pursuit for the last 12yrs has come off the back of those riders competing in a stage race don't you?

FdJ, CA, Cofidis, and Highroad all probably thought, heck this guy has more power on the flat than almost anyone, we know his focus is the track, so he'll make a pretty good domestique, which is exactly what he was employed to be by those teams. Win win situation for both parties.

 

[ggusta]

I cannot wait for the next magical transformation, which will come about from being on the bike eight hours a day.

"I am on my bike eight hours a day. All the slackers before me would only put in seven hours. Some of the really lazy ones would only do six. I am the first cyclist to put in a full day's work for a full day's pay. Now I am reaping the benefits."

You left out several rounds of calling out various nameless doubters 'C**ts'

 

[Ferminal]

Actually, take out Contador (Clenbuterol 2010) as well. And Leipheimer (Ephedrine 1996) and Astarloza (EPO 2009). And these are just the other guys who got cought, along with Vino and Kashechkin. So, better also take out Kloeden (clearly named in Freiburg documents) and Popovych (alleged to have doped by Landis with the USPS team, and a client of Ferrari). Just proves what a class act Wiggins is, beating all the dopers.

This is a good strategy, maybe we can get Wiggins top100 in a mountain stage too.

Tour de France, Stage 8 : Le Grand-Bornand - Tignes (165 km)

1. [DEN] RASMUSSEN Michael RAB 4h49'40" (Humanplasma)
2. [ESP] MAYO DIEZ Iban SDV 02'47" (Positive)
3. [ESP] VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro GCE 03'12" (Puerto)
4. [FRA] MOREAU Christophe A2R 03'13" (Festina)
5. [LUX] SCHLECK Fränk CSC 03'13" (Puerto)
6. [AUS] EVANS Cadel PRL 03'13"
7. [KAZ] KASHECHKIN Andrey AST 03'13" (Positive)
8. [ESP] CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto DSC 03'31" (Positive)
9. [RUS] MENCHOV Denis RAB 03'35" (Humanplasma)
10. [ESP] SASTRE CANDIL Carlos CSC 03'35" (doper according to Wiggins)
11. [ESP] ZUBELDIA AGIRRE Haimar EUS 03'59"
12. [USA] LEIPHEIMER Levi DSC 03'59" (Positive/Off-score/USPS)
13. [ESP] COBO ACEBO Juan Jose SDV 03'59"
14. [ESP] BELTRAN MARTINEZ Manuel LIQ 04'13" (Positive)
15. [ESP] PEREIRO SIO Oscar GCE 04'13" (Positive)
16. [ESP] GARATE CEPA Juan Manuel QSI 04'29"
17. [ESP] ARROYO DURAN David GCE 04'29"
18. [GER] KLÖDEN Andreas AST 04'29" (Freiburg)
19. [KAZ] VINOKOUROV Alexandre AST 04'29" (Positive)
20. [GER] GERDEMANN Linus TMO 05'05"
21. [SLO] VALJAVEC Tadej LAM 05'05" (Passport)
22. [LUX] KIRCHEN Kim TMO 05'10"
23. [ESP] ASTARLOZA CHAURREAU Mikel EUS 05'41" (Positive)
24. [GER] VOIGT Jens CSC 05'47"
25. [BLR] SIUTSOU Kanstantsin BAR 05'47"
26. [NED] BOOGERD Michael RAB 06'32" (Humanplasma)
27. [USA] HORNER Chris PRL 06'32"
28. [RUS] KARPETS Vladimir GCE 06'39" (Padova)
29. [UKR] POPOVYCH Yaroslav DSC 07'40" (USPS)
30. [ESP] TXURRUKA ANSOLA Amets EUS 08'23"
31. [FRA] CHAVANEL Sylvain COF 08'23"
32. [RUS] BOTCHAROV Alexandre C.A 08'23"
33. [COL] SOLER HERNANDEZ Juan Mauricio BAR 08'48"
34. [GER] KNEES Christian MRM 09'44"
35. [RUS] GUSEV Vladimir DSC 09'44" (Padova)
36. [GER] FOTHEN Markus GST 09'44"
37. [NED] TANKINK Bram QSI 12'45"
38. [USA] VANDE VELDE Christian CSC 12'45" (USPS)
39. [ESP] GUTIERREZ PALACIOS Jose Ivan GCE 12'45"
40. [FRA] TURPIN Ludovic A2R 12'45" 0
41. [AUS] GERRANS Simon A2R 13'12" 0
42. [FIN] CARLSTRÖM Kjell LIQ 14'13"
43. [GER] WEGMANN Fabian GST 14'13"
44. [FRA] LE MEVEL Christophe C.A 14'13"
45. [ESP] VILA ERRANDONEA Patxi Javier LAM 15'16" (Positive)
46. [FRA] VOECKLER Thomas BTL 15'33" 0
47. [ITA] SAVOLDELLI Paolo AST 17'26" 0
48. [ESP] COLOM MAS Antonio AST 17'26" (Positive)
49. [BEL] MERCKX Axel TMO 17'26" (Ferrari)
50. [USA] HINCAPIE George DSC 17'26" (USPS)
51. [ESP] BARREDO LLAMAZALES Carlos QSI 17'26"
52. [ITA] MORENI Cristian COF 18'06" (Positive)
53. [RUS] IVANOV Serguei AST 19'17"
54. [BEL] AERTS Mario PRL 19'17"
55. [NED] DEKKER Thomas RAB 19'17" (Positive)
56. [NOR] ARVESEN Kurt Asle CSC 19'17"
57. [GER] ZABEL Erik MRM 19'17" (Admission)
58. [BEL] VANSUMMEREN Johan PRL 19'17"
59. [FRA] VASSEUR Cédric QSI 19'17"
60. [KAZ] IGLINSKIY Maxim AST 19'17"
61. [FRA] CALZATI Sylvain A2R 19'17"
62. [FRA] GOUBERT Stéphane A2R 19'17"
63. [FRA] PINEAU Jérôme BTL 19'17"
64. [GER] NIERMANN Grischa RAB 19'17"
65. [ESP] VERDUGO MARCOTEGUI Gorka EUS 19'17"
66. [ESP] CUESTA LOPEZ DE CASTRO Iñigo CSC 19'17"
67. [SUI] RAST Grégory AST 19'17"
68. [ESP] LANDALUZE INTXAURRAGA Iñigo EUS 19'17" (Positive)
69. [POR] PAULINHO Sergio Miguel Moreira DSC 20'05"
70. [ESP] VENTOSO ALBERDI Francisco Jose SDV 20'05" (Positive)
71. [KAZ] FOFONOV Dmitriy C.A 22'03" (Positive)
72. [ITA] CIONI Dario David PRL 22'59" (>50%)
73. [AUT] KOHL Bernhard GST 24'18" (Positive)
74. [GER] SCHOLZ Ronny GST 24'18"
75. [SWE] LÖFKVIST Thomas FDJ 29'11"
76. [SUI] ELMIGER Martin A2R 29'11"
77. [FRA] SPRICK Mathieu BTL 29'11"
78. [ESP] MERCADO MARTIN Juan Miguel AGR 29'11"
79. [ESP] PEREZ MORENO Ruben EUS 29'11"
80. [ESP] ARRIETA LUJAMBIO Jose Luis A2R 29'11"
81. [FRA] HALGAND Patrice C.A 29'11"
82. [FRA] GADRET John A2R 29'11"
83. [ESP] CAMAÑO ORTUZAR Iker SDV 29'11"
84. [SUI] ALBASINI Michael LIQ 29'11"
85. [ITA] BENNATI Daniele LAM 29'11"
86. [BEL] WILLEMS Frederik LIQ 29'11" (Positive)
87. [BRA] FISCHER Murilo Antonio LIQ 29'11"
88. [FRA] BICHOT Freddy AGR 29'11"
89. [ITA] BALLAN Alessandro LAM 33'45" (Mantova)
90. [SUI] CANCELLARA Fabian CSC 33'45"
91. [ESP] NAVARRO GARCIA Daniel AST 33'45"
92. [BEL] GILBERT Philippe FDJ 33'45"
93. [GER] SCHUMACHER Stefan GST 33'45" (Positive)
94. [ESP] MARTINEZ DE ESTEBAN Egoi DSC 33'45"
95. [ESP] PEREZ SANCHEZ Francisco GCE 33'45" (Positive)
96. [NED] CLEMENT Stef BTL 33'45" 0
97. [ESP] AZANZA SOTO Jorge EUS 33'45"
98. [FRA] FEDRIGO Pierrick BTL 33'45"
99. [FRA] LEFEVRE Laurent BTL 33'45"
100. [FRA] VAUGRENARD Benoît FDJ 33'45"
101. [FRA] VOGONDY Nicolas AGR 33'45"
102. [ITA] CHEULA Giampaolo BAR 33'45"
103. [ITA] RIGHI Daniele LAM 33'45"
104. [COL] CARDENAS RAVALO Felix Rafael BAR 36'49"
105. [ITA] POZZATO Filippo LIQ 39'07" (Ferrari)
106. [BLR] KUSCHYNSKI Aleksandr LIQ 39'07"
107. [ITA] TOSATTO Matteo QSI 39'07"
108. [RSA] HUNTER Robert BAR 39'07"
109. [NED] DE JONGH Steven QSI 39'07"
110. [ITA] QUINZIATO Manuel LIQ 39'07"
111. [FRA] LADAGNOUS Matthieu FDJ 39'07"
112. [ITA] CORTINOVIS Alessandro MRM 39'07"
113. [BEL] BOONEN Tom QSI 39'07"
114. [ITA] CORIONI Claudio LAM 39'07"
115. [FRA] DESSEL Cyril A2R 39'07"
116. [ITA] ONGARATO Alberto MRM 39'07" (Suspended)
117. [GER] GRABSCH Ralf MRM 39'07"
118. [GER] GRABSCH Bert TMO 39'07"
119. [ITA] BRUSEGHIN Marzio LAM 39'07" (Mantova)
120. [UKR] GRIVKO Andriy MRM 39'07"
121. [GER] SIEBERG Marcel MRM 39'07"
122. [BEL] VANSEVENANT Wim PRL 39'07" (>50%/Supplier)
123. [BEL] SCHEIRLINCKX Staf COF 39'07"
124. [BEL] ROSSELER Sébastien QSI 39'07"
125. [FRA] GESLIN Anthony BTL 39'07"
126. [FRA] DELAGE Mickael FDJ 39'07"
127. [ITA] BOSSONI Paolo LAM 39'07" (Positive)
128. [BEL] HOSTE Leif PRL 39'07"
129. [GBR] MILLAR David SDV 39'07" (Positive)
130. [ESP] CAÑADA GRACIA David SDV 39'07"
131. [FRA] RINERO Christophe SDV 39'07"
132. [ESP] NOVAL GONZALEZ Benjamin DSC 39'07"
133. [FRA] PORTAL Nicolas GCE 39'07"
134. [FRA] SALMON Benoît AGR 39'07"
135. [RUS] EFIMKIN Alexander BAR 39'07"
136. [FRA] JEGOU Lilian FDJ 39'07"
137. [FRA] HINAULT Sébastien C.A 39'07"
138. [FRA] CHARTEAU Anthony C.A 39'07"
139. [GER] FÖRSTER Robert GST 39'07"
140. [BEL] STEEGMANS Gert QSI 39'07"
141. [ESP] ANTON HERNANDEZ Igor EUS 39'07"
142. [ESP] ISASI FLORES Iñaki EUS 39'07"
143. [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley COF 39'07"

100th now.

 

[The Real GFY]

snip

Actually, you mention character as proof someone does not dope? The cycling world is full of people who had character, or were nice, but doped. It means nothing. It's not any more of an argument than saying someone did dope because you do not like them.

 

[The Real GFY]

This is a good strategy, maybe we can get Wiggins top100 in a mountain stage too ... 100th now.

That was quite funny!

 

[sittingbison]

OK, lets look at the ITTs.
1.VINOKOUROV A.AST1h 06' 34"
2.EVANS C.PRL0 1' 14"
3.KLÖDEN A.AST0 1' 39"
4.KASHECHKIN A.AST0 1' 44"
5.WIGGINS B.COF 02' 14"
6.POPOVYCH Y.DSC 02' 16"
7.CONTADOR A.DSC 02' 18"
8.CHAVANEL S.COF 02' 38"
9.LEIPHEIMER L.DSC 02' 39"
10.ASTARLOZA M.EUS 02' 42"

This year Wiggans has put 60 seconds into Chavanel, 163 seconds into Cadel, 164 seconds into Kloden, 200 seconds into Levi, 347 seconds into Popovych, 360 seconds into Vino, 384 seconds into Kashechkin.

Cadel has lost 104 seconds to Chavanel this year.

 

[hrotha]

So what is the problem? This is the thing that boggles my mind about your reasoning, he has been road racing professionally for 10yrs but you (or others) say that its not possible for a track rider to be a successful road racer?

You are all pointing at 2008-2009 as the period in which he had an epihpany and suddenly decides to become a doper at a time when it has become more difficult than ever before, but seem to ignore that fact that track was his focus up until the 2008 Olympics.

I do not believe that it is possible to be world class on the track AND on the road at the same time, but none of you seem to think there is any cross over, that if you alter your focus from one to the other you cannot be successful. I believe there is cross over and guys like Brad McGee, Stuart O'Grady and Chris Boardman also demonstrate this and there is an abundance of evidence from distance running that also demonstrates the same phenomenon. All Wiggins has done is taken it a step further and demonstrated that you can win.

That's one gigantic strawman. No one's saying it's impossible for a track (or specifically pursuit) guy to be successful on the road, even when climbing is involved to some degree. What we're saying is that, prior to 2009, Wiggins had never shown any climbing potential whatsoever, contrary to others like Geraint Thomas, and his time-trialing, which was his focus, wasn't world-class either.

 

[Krebs cycle]

That's one gigantic strawman. No one's saying it's impossible for a track (or specifically pursuit) guy to be successful on the road, even when climbing is involved to some degree. What we're saying is that, prior to 2009, Wiggins had never shown any climbing potential whatsoever, contrary to others like Geraint Thomas, and his time-trialing, which was his focus, wasn't world-class either.

So ignore the strawman and focus on the important bit ie: a plausible explanation that Wiggins was not a strong climber up to 2008 is that he was training for track. Starting a doping program after the Olympics could be another reason, but its not the only reason. I suppose you could argue that he was doping all along but then you'd have to accept my (ZOMG bizarro) reasoning that if you train differently you get different performance outcomes.

I'll repeat something very important.... I do not believe it is possible to be world class on the track and on the road at the same time. Therefore comparing hill climbing performance pre and post the Beijing Olympics is a failed approach because his training and preparation would have been different.

If you say he didn't show any potential in road TTs well then you're just being selective in choosing which results to look at, because pure physics dictates that you can never even have one good result if you have no potential, however the ITT from Albi in 2007 beats that argument down with a wet trout.

 

[Krebs cycle]

A little research and I find out that Wiggins beat Maxime Monfort and Tony Martin by nearly 1min in a 22km road ITT in 2005 in the Tour de L'Avenir.

Distance: 22 km
Road – Individual Time Trial
Departure: Leignes-sur-Fontaine, France
Arrival: Montmorillon, France

1 Christian Müller (Ger) Team CSC 26.49
2 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Credit Agricole 0.16
3 Kai Reus (Ned) Rabobank 0.17
4 Lars Bak (Den) Team CSC 0.31
5 Emilien-Benoît Berges (Fra) R.A.G.T. Semences 0.44
6 Christophe Riblon (Fra) Ag2r Prevoyance 0.59
7 Mathieu Heyboer (Ned) Rabobank
8 Jose Joaquin Rojas (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 1.07
9 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago 1.09
10 Tony Martin (Ger) German National Team 1.10


Wiggins beat Monfort by 2:15 last week in an ITT twice the distance.

WOW what a MASSIVE and SUDDEN change in relative TT performance.... surely he must be doping, that can be the only explanation!!

 

[UlleGigo]

I believe there is cross over and guys like Brad McGee, Stuart O'Grady and Chris Boardman also demonstrate this.

Brilliant example. How many GTs did they win?