The Tour Wild Cards

[auscyclefan94]

So basically, your recipe for spicing up the Tour is to get as little variety at all in the early stages and the transition stages by limiting breakaway teams and inject spice by inserting Cadel Evans into the battle on the mountains teams?

No, I'm saying that the gc contenders generally sit back in the first week. By adding another breakaway team you are not adding to the variety of the race and spicing it up.

If Evans does the Giro to win, then will he have enough to be a force at the Tour?

Excellent question, he thinks so and so does sastre. We'll have to wait and see how well he can recover!

With there already being several different GC contenders on several different teams, I don't see how one more for one more team will TOTALLY change it to make it a much more exciting race in the mountain stages. Besides, the new, much-vaunted, attacking Cadel Evans attacked in the Vuelta... when exactly? I recall him attacking on Xorret del Catí, but when else? I guess that's a crapshoot though as had he not been left behind when he punctured he may have done more (though being only a minute adrift you'd have thought there could have been more excitement brought).

Never said he would totally change the race but how would a break away taem change the race. evans would make at least an impact by being at the front of the race. The key is also the rainbow jesrsey and John lelangue
never said it would totally change the race but I think Evans and his team would make a bigger impact on the race as a whole. The more gc contenders means that it is going to be harder for Saxo with Andy and Astana with Alberto to control the race. It would make the descisive stages more tatical and attacking.

Like I said before, if BMC's contender was NOT Evans, would you be feeling the same way about whether a breakaway team or a GC team that, on the face of it, is fairly weak in terms of name value if Ballan and Hincapie aren't riding? I'm not convinced you would.

you may not believe me but yes i would feel the same way if it was another gc team as breakaway teams feature in the odd stage and that is it. Just not as passionate about the team.

Would an eleventh REALLY make that much of a difference?

Would another team of breakaway riders make that much of a difference?

Being in a breakaway doesn't mean you are an attacking team. it really means you have no real leader for sprints or gc.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Do people honestly think that the breakaways won't form if Vasconelli isn't there?

I really don't think another team trying to get into breaks will result in much of a different experience as a fan. We'll still see a break form on every stage. If the pelaton wants to catch them it will still happen 90% of the time. Yeah, if Vasconelli is there they'll try to get a rider in every break... but so what? Is there a real difference between a 5 man and 6 man break to the viewer?

Excellent Point!!!!

 

[theyoungest]

Excellent Point!!!!

The exact same point could be made about the number of second tier GC contenders. One of the GC contenders I --and most of the people on this forum, it seems-- could do without is Evans. I won't mind if he's there, but I certainly won't miss him if he's not.

 

[Anonymous]

Corrected

you found it, im so please, it was just for you

 

[lone_cowboy]

I for one really want BMC there so i can watch Cadel. I am very biased in this, being Aussie, but he does seem to liven things up with the media. I wouldnt not watch the tour because cadel is not in it, but boy it has been fun to cheer on an aussie hopeful for the past few years. Would like to do it for one more year, it may take a couple of years before we see another aussie hope at the tour. Possibly Bobridge or Meyer.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No, I'm saying that the gc contenders generally sit back in the first week. By adding another breakaway team you are not adding to the variety of the race and spicing it up.

On the contrary, adding more breakaway teams does spice it up because it gives you more variety in who's breaking away, plus who doesn't like when somebody gets in an unexpectedly high GC position from a breakaway and fights to the death to defend it (Le Mevel at the Tour, Hoogerland in the Vuelta, and so on)? Vacansoleil also add more than just a bunch of breakaway specialists, as both Romain Feillu and Borut Božić can get involved in sprints and late attacks and give the other teams something to think about.

Excellent question, he thinks so and so does sastre. We'll have to wait and see how well he can recover!

True, but on 2009 evidence (on a softer parcours) I'm quite pessimistic - Pellizotti was easily the most successful rider at the Tour who'd also been competitive at the Giro, and he went with GC ambitions and had to give them up by the end of week 1.

Never said he would totally change the race but how would a break away taem change the race. evans would make at least an impact by being at the front of the race. The key is also the rainbow jesrsey and John lelangue
never said it would totally change the race but I think Evans and his team would make a bigger impact on the race as a whole. The more gc contenders means that it is going to be harder for Saxo with Andy and Astana with Alberto to control the race. It would make the descisive stages more tatical and attacking.

A breakaway team can change the race by getting somebody in a surprisingly high GC position, getting the KoM (remember Soler in '07?) and especially if the likes of Brice Feillu are successful, inspiring enormous patriotic support. Evans being at the front of the race can only make an impact if he genuinely is there, and that relies on the previous point regards the Giro. Evans is a good climber with a good TT, but because of his lack of a real attacking kick that will distance people, I don't see how his presence will change a battle royale that's already pretty intriguing.

you may not believe me but yes i would feel the same way if it was another gc team as breakaway teams feature in the odd stage and that is it. Just not as passionate about the team.

OK, this is a fair point, but I'm kinda programmed to support the underdog, and nothing made me happier in the 2009 Tour than Tommy Voeckler's win. Therefore I'm more happy to see the presence of the 'give it a go' riders than another guy who won't animate the race and who'll sit in for a top 10. As I said, for all of the new attacking instinct Evans showed in '09 (and to be fair, he was often criticised rather harshly before that) I can only recall one attack being put in by him in the Vuelta, and that was on the stage he lost the gold jersey. His being in the race does nothing to excite me for the potential fireworks, and the only thing I think he'll add is a pretty jersey.

Would another team of breakaway riders make that much of a difference?

Being in a breakaway doesn't mean you are an attacking team. it really means you have no real leader for sprints or gc.

And yet Vacansoleil do have two sprinters. One of whom's won a Grand Tour stage from a bunch sprint, and the other of whom's worn the maillot jaune. David Millar was out on the breakaway in the Tour, and his team had a sprinter and two GC riders. Being in a breakaway doesn't mean you are an attacking team. I once compiled an 'Intergiro' style classification for the 2009 Tour and found much to my surprise that Rubén Pérez won it, and perennial attacking riders like Amets Txurruka were nowhere to be found because he normally attacked later in the stage. But Vacansoleil ARE an attacking team, and we've seen that in every race they've been in - they seldom miss a breakaway, and they also send people off the front in the last 10km to try and break up the sprint, they chase down breakaways they don't like, either individually or as a team, they collect sprint bonuses... they do pretty much everything you could ask a team to do to animate a race. Hoogerland clinging desperately to Moncoutié's back wheel on the Alto de Aitana in the Vuelta was great drama that was completely irrelevant to either the stage (if they stayed away there was no way he'd beat Moncoutié) or the GC (neither were relevant to it), but it was still exciting and fascinating to watch.

 

[Nearly]

..... Evans being at the front of the race can only make an impact if he genuinely is there, and that relies on the previous point regards the Giro. Evans is a good climber with a good TT, but because of his lack of a real attacking kick that will distance people, I don't see how his presence will change a battle royale that's already pretty intriguing.

OK, this is a fair point, but as a Briton I'm kinda programmed to support the underdog, and nothing made me happier in the 2009 Tour than Tommy Voeckler's win. Therefore I'm more happy to see the presence of the 'give it a go' riders than another guy who won't animate the race and who'll sit in for a top 10. As I said, for all of the new attacking instinct Evans showed in '09 (and to be fair, he was often criticised rather harshly before that) I can only recall one attack being put in by him in the Vuelta, and that was on the stage he lost the gold jersey. His being in the race does nothing to excite me for the potential fireworks, and the only thing I think he'll add is a pretty jersey.

Libertine - did you see/hear the mountain "go off" in the queen stage of this year's Tour Down Under when Evans attacked on the last climb, to be joined by Valverde and LL Sanchez and another and then for those 4 to work themselves (together) to the bone hold off a charging HTC/Greipel train led peleton in the 30km descent and flat to the finish?! OK so it was on his home turf and he had the rainbow jersey on (and he only came 4th) but lack of kick/boring/unexciting? I don't think so. Bring on the TdF and all between.

 

[Ferminal]

Libertine - did you see/hear the mountain "go off" in the queen stage of this year's Tour Down Under when Evans attacked on the last climb, to be joined by Valverde and LL Sanchez and another and then for those 4 to work themselves (together) to the bone hold off a charging HTC/Greipel train led peleton in the 30km descent and flat to the finish?! OK so it was on his home turf and he had the rainbow jersey on (and he only came 4th) but lack of kick/boring/unexciting? I don't think so. Bring on the TdF and all between.

Evans not attacking is a myth, but against a TdF field he is simply not capable creating a gap. They are different, but the result is the same - someone who cannot animate the Tour. It's a bit different attacking a bunch of sprinters at the start of the season to trying to put time into Contador, Schleck, Armstrong et al.

This debate is so tiresome

The debate being had here will only be a minor consideration for the ASO. It will come down to lobbying and commercial considerations.

 

[Anonymous]

The debate being had here will only be a minor consideration for the ASO. It will come down to lobbying and commercial considerations.

I have it on good authority that the ASO check on here daily and our opinion is considered very valuable thank you very much. They would also like it known that they are very grateful to the americans for their part in liberating their country in 1944-45

 

[Mellow Velo]

BMC get the boot, for entering a no-name team, from an event that should be happy to take whats on offer:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dwars-door-vlaanderen-wildcard-for-xacobeo-instead-of-bmc

Xacobeo invited instead, so they must really have been the dregs.

I'm sure this will impress Mr Prudhomme.

 

[tgsgirl]

BMC get the boot, for entering a no-name team, from an event that should be happy to take whats on offer:

That sounds a bit harsh on an event with this top five last year:
1. VAN IMPE Kevin
2. EECKHOUT Nico
3. BOONEN Tom
4. HAUSSLER Heinrich
5. DEVOLDER Stijn

Good for the organisers that they're standing up for their themselves.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Libertine - did you see/hear the mountain "go off" in the queen stage of this year's Tour Down Under when Evans attacked on the last climb, to be joined by Valverde and LL Sanchez and another and then for those 4 to work themselves (together) to the bone hold off a charging HTC/Greipel train led peleton in the 30km descent and flat to the finish?! OK so it was on his home turf and he had the rainbow jersey on (and he only came 4th) but lack of kick/boring/unexciting? I don't think so. Bring on the TdF and all between.

And did you notice that I did say he was criticised rather harshly prior to 2009 for not attacking? The guy does attack, but as has been mentioned, there is a real difference between attacking in January on home turf when you want to show for your home crowd, and attacking in July against a much, much stronger field. That stage was exciting, and the best racing we've seen in the Tour Down Under at any point ever by a factor of about ten. And I recall him attacking again, again and yet again on the Col de la Madeleine in the Dauphiné Libéré, desperately trying to drop Valverde. But he couldn't gap him no matter what he did; and in the Vuelta, when he was less than 2 minutes down, on three consecutive MTFs? Nothing. The only attack Evans put in during the Vuelta was on Xorret del Catí, and that was when he was wearing the gold jersey. I don't expect much different to happen in the Tour.

Again, on the TDU, it's a lot easier to leave nothing behind in a six-day race where every stage to date has been flat and the next one is a crit. It's something different entirely to do it in a three-week stage race with consecutive mountain stages, and he hasn't given any evidence he'll light any of those up.

 

[auscyclefan94]

On the contrary, adding more breakaway teams does spice it up because it gives you more variety in who's breaking away, plus who doesn't like when somebody gets in an unexpectedly high GC position from a breakaway and fights to the death to defend it (Le Mevel at the Tour, Hoogerland in the Vuelta, and so on)? Vacansoleil also add more than just a bunch of breakaway specialists, as both Romain Feillu and Borut Božić can get involved in sprints and late attacks and give the other teams something to think about.

True, but on 2009 evidence (on a softer parcours) I'm quite pessimistic - Pellizotti was easily the most successful rider at the Tour who'd also been competitive at the Giro, and he went with GC ambitions and had to give them up by the end of week 1.


A breakaway team can change the race by getting somebody in a surprisingly high GC position, getting the KoM (remember Soler in '07?) and especially if the likes of Brice Feillu are successful, inspiring enormous patriotic support. Evans being at the front of the race can only make an impact if he genuinely is there, and that relies on the previous point regards the Giro. Evans is a good climber with a good TT, but because of his lack of a real attacking kick that will distance people, I don't see how his presence will change a battle royale that's already pretty intriguing.

OK, this is a fair point, but as a Briton I'm kinda programmed to support the underdog, and nothing made me happier in the 2009 Tour than Tommy Voeckler's win. Therefore I'm more happy to see the presence of the 'give it a go' riders than another guy who won't animate the race and who'll sit in for a top 10. As I said, for all of the new attacking instinct Evans showed in '09 (and to be fair, he was often criticised rather harshly before that) I can only recall one attack being put in by him in the Vuelta, and that was on the stage he lost the gold jersey. His being in the race does nothing to excite me for the potential fireworks, and the only thing I think he'll add is a pretty jersey.



And yet Vacansoleil do have two sprinters. One of whom's won a Grand Tour stage from a bunch sprint, and the other of whom's worn the maillot jaune. David Millar was out on the breakaway in the Tour, and his team had a sprinter and two GC riders. Being in a breakaway doesn't mean you are an attacking team. I once compiled an 'Intergiro' style classification for the 2009 Tour and found much to my surprise that Rubén Pérez won it, and perennial attacking riders like Amets Txurruka were nowhere to be found because he normally attacked later in the stage. But Vacansoleil ARE an attacking team, and we've seen that in every race they've been in - they seldom miss a breakaway, and they also send people off the front in the last 10km to try and break up the sprint, they chase down breakaways they don't like, either individually or as a team, they collect sprint bonuses... they do pretty much everything you could ask a team to do to animate a race. Hoogerland clinging desperately to Moncoutié's back wheel on the Alto de Aitana in the Vuelta was great drama that was completely irrelevant to either the stage (if they stayed away there was no way he'd beat Moncoutié) or the GC (neither were relevant to it), but it was still exciting and fascinating to watch.

Having 1 exttra team in the break is not going to spice it up. Bozic and Felliu will hardly feature at all in the sprints.
Soler was successful not just because of his break but because he could go uphills very fast.
we'll have to see if evans will make an impact but i think he can
He can just look down at his jersey when people criticise him for not attacking!
Vacansoleil sprinters are not going to be able to match against the big leadout trains with all the sprinters there.

Is pettachi doing the tour?

 

[tgsgirl]

Having 1 exttra team in the break is not going to spice it up. Bozic and Felliu will hardly feature at all in the sprints.
Soler was successful not just because of his break but because he could go uphills very fast.
we'll have to see if evans will make an impact but i think he can
He can just look down at his jersey when people criticise him for not attacking!
Vacansoleil sprinters are not going to be able to match against the big leadout trains with all the sprinters there.
Is pettachi doing the tour?

- I think you're too focused on the concept of "one extra breakaway team just means there's a break of six instead of five"; when really, one extra breakaway team is more about one extra team with a focus on breakaways. Ergo, one extra team to disrupt whoever is chasing the break of the day. One extra team to go for an insane suicidal attack - if any rider in the peloton today has insane suicidal attack written all over him it's crazy Johnny Hoogerland - in the last 10 kilometres. One extra team to add some spice to the race.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a sprint with a true train this year yet. Maybe Sky had one in their Champions League final crit win, I don't remember. Granted, we haven't seen the '09 Cav at work yet. And I bet there are sprinters out there with worse records than Bozic.

- And the Feillus are both really, really good at something which no one at BMC can do: being French.

- We don't even know if Petacchi will have a team come April, let alone if he'll be riding TdF.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

will having one extra team in BMC really bring much more to the table? What do they really offer? They offer Evans, in a Tour which is already overloaded with GC contenders, they offer little else - a couple of classics specialists, the most notable of which don't want to ride, and some other riders including some ex-Astana names and then some riders who were considered insulting by the Tour of West Flanders. I fail to see how having them around will spice anything up more than having Vacansoleil around. It's all about Evans, Evans, Evans. If Cadel gets injured or is out of form or for whatever reason can't ride or doesn't ride well, the team is just a waste of an invite. Vacansoleil have surprising depth given the type of team they are and, as has been noted, they have some French names, including two - one in particular - who have much of France quite excited. With no Agritubel around, there are no French underdog teams (there are actually, Bbox and Cofidis, but as they're ex-ProTour they are in the guarantee) at the lower level who can step up - Saur are probably too small to be considered seriously against the likes of BMC and Vacansoleil, and the fact that Vacansoleil have some acclaimed French riders could prove invaluable. Skil's willingness to bring in French riders was part of how they got the 2009 invite.

I think we're also forgetting that, last year, at the few wildcard invites they got, BMC were nothing more than a breakaway team themselves, and a far less effective one than Vacansoleil too.

 

[tgsgirl]

and then some riders who were considered insulting by the Tour of West Flanders.

Dwars door Vlaanderen (straight through Flanders, literal translation). Different thing then the Driedaagse of West-Vlaanderen. Though I see how the gazillion races with 'vlaanderen' in it would confuse one.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

...and the thread about the Driedaagse being right next to this one for a while.

 

[ike2112]

will having one extra team in BMC really bring much more to the table? What do they really offer? They offer Evans, in a Tour which is already overloaded with GC contenders, they offer little else - a couple of classics specialists, the most notable of which don't want to ride, and some other riders including some ex-Astana names and then some riders who were considered insulting by the Tour of West Flanders. I fail to see how having them around will spice anything up more than having Vacansoleil around. It's all about Evans, Evans, Evans. If Cadel gets injured or is out of form or for whatever reason can't ride or doesn't ride well, the team is just a waste of an invite. Vacansoleil have surprising depth given the type of team they are and, as has been noted, they have some French names, including two - one in particular - who have much of France quite excited. With no Agritubel around, there are no French underdog teams (there are actually, Bbox and Cofidis, but as they're ex-ProTour they are in the guarantee) at the lower level who can step up - Saur are probably too small to be considered seriously against the likes of BMC and Vacansoleil, and the fact that Vacansoleil have some acclaimed French riders could prove invaluable. Skil's willingness to bring in French riders was part of how they got the 2009 invite.

I think we're also forgetting that, last year, at the few wildcard invites they got, BMC were nothing more than a breakaway team themselves, and a far less effective one than Vacansoleil too.

To add to your good points already made...

Evans is focusing on the Giro. He stated it publicly. That's not going to help convince Prudhomme that BMC are going full-out for the Tour.

Vacansoleil have been the most effective team this season to date. Other than at Omloop (where they had men in the 2 early breaks), I think that they have either podiumed or worn a jersey in every single race they have entered. That's a pretty good success rate. Yes we're only just in March. But this effectiveness of strategy and willingness to mix it up in races will have been noticed. On the other hand I'm not sure the average fan knows what BMC's jersey even looks like yet.

 

[tgsgirl]

Aw look, the whole gang is here

I'm still not convinced BMC even exist. It's just a ploy so Ballan and Cuddles can have a year-long holiday. This "being denied a wildcard" plays right into their hands!

 

[ike2112]

Aw look, the whole gang is here

I'm still not convinced BMC even exist. It's just a ploy so Ballan and Cuddles can have a year-long holiday. This "being denied a wildcard" plays right into their hands!

My spidey-sense was telling me someone was slating Johnny's team!

I don't understand why BMC didn't also hire Leif Hoste. They should have a wind tunnel for testing in December, ride the desert races, maybe show up to something in the first half of the year, then just head to a resort somewhere for the rest of the year, taking June onwards off.

 

[this_is_edie]

BMC has John Lelangue who worked for ASO for year, the current World Champion, a former World Champion and were invited to the ASO races in Qatar & Oman. Of course they're going to be invited to the Tour.

 

[Anonymous]

Aw look, the whole gang is here

I'm still not convinced BMC even exist. It's just a ploy so Ballan and Cuddles can have a year-long holiday.

On the other hand I'm not sure the average fan knows what BMC's jersey even looks like yet.

Is it red?

 

[tgsgirl]

Are you kidding me? Lotto already gambled with the faith of the universe by having two of the world's biggest whiners together in a team, no one should toy with those forces ever again. The combined complaining powers of Leif and Cadel are enough to turn the entire known galaxy into a bleak pit of despair.

Just imagine if those two were ever to pair up with Graeme Brown!

And that is one useless superpower you've got going there

 

[tgsgirl]

BMC has John Lelangue who worked for ASO for year, the current World Champion, a former World Champion and were invited to the ASO races in Qatar & Oman. Of course they're going to be invited to the Tour.

John Lelangue is a powerful card they've got going, but I don't think Preudhomme gives a **** about not having the world champ in his race. That's just one more jersey that isn't one of his.

 

[karlboss]

Loads of promises seem to have been made, but what would one think of skipping katusha or skil?