Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE's)

[MatParker117]

Re:

By requiring athletes to make their TUEs public if they want to compete, you are effectively asking those with embarrassing or personal issues (e.g. STDs, mental disorders, fertility issues) to choose between 3 options:
- make this embarrassing or personal issue known to potentially every single person on the planet
- give up on a part of your career at best or your entire career at worst
- compete without the necessary medication with all the possible dangers and consequences

If you think it is ethical to demand athletes to make such a decision only because you're obsessed with transparency, I suggest you sit down for a moment and reconsider your standards and values.

Preach!

 

[python]

^^i suggest, being fully in sync with your sentiment, that is, 'make this embarrassing or personal issue known to potentially every single person on the planet', you should ALSO be concerned with the paralympic athletes for whom, as inferred above,the personal embarrassment is imposed by the international sporting rules.

people should be treated equally regardless of what ailment they were born with....right ?

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

provided the facts you stated are correct, it was a very interesting point, vespuzzio ! i, as likely most sports fans, dont follow the paralympics. thus, declaring their medical condition as a prerequisite for competing is probably going to surprise most fans.

Every competition has a designation like T10, or T53 or whatever. It specifies what the disability is.

https://www.paralympic.org/sites/default/files/document/120716152047682_ClassificationGuide_2.pdf

it remains a good question to the privacy advocates (or better yet, their lawyers) - and i mean it in a non-confrontational way, why the right to personal privacy of paralympians would be less cherished than the right of 'healthy' olympians ?

it puzzles me a great deal.

Yes, that is the question. Obviously it's just an excuse, so that people can continue to use a competitive advantage without being known to the public. To me it's pretty simple, if you don't want people to know about your asthma/what you take for it, then you shouldn't compete. Find something else to do that doesn't envolve competition and require you to use unfair advantages.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

By requiring athletes to make their TUEs public if they want to compete, you are effectively asking those with embarrassing or personal issues (e.g. STDs, mental disorders, fertility issues) to choose between 3 options:
- make this embarrassing or personal issue known to potentially every single person on the planet
- give up on a part of your career at best or your entire career at worst
- compete without the necessary medication with all the possible dangers and consequences

If you think it is ethical to demand athletes to make such a decision only because you're obsessed with transparency, I suggest you sit down for a moment and reconsider your standards and values.

It is simple. An athlete considers their options. Compete with full TUE disclosure or take time off while effects of the banned substance is taking its course. No one is suggesting a gun to the head here.

But why no outrage about paralympians and their disclosure? Is unethical? It appears not? What about special olympians?

Why are healthy athletes views different from paralympians?

You argue standards and values, but sport seems to be lacking these!

I also cannot think of anything that should cause an athlete embarrassment, hardly ADHD, or asthma, heart irregularity, pollen allergy or other allergy. I mean if it is a serious ailment i doubt they would be competing.

Funny how many athletes will risk shortening their lifespans and take PEDs in the hope they win, but heck the argument of shortening careers is put forward!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

^^i suggest, being fully in sync with your sentiment, that is, 'make this embarrassing or personal issue known to potentially every single person on the planet', you should ALSO be concerned with the paralympic athletes for whom, as inferred above,the personal embarrassment is imposed by the international sporting rules.

people should be treated equally regardless of what ailment they were born with....right ?

They are two very different things and you know it. The Paralympics allow disabled people to compete against people with similar disabilities. Because it wouldn't be fair to let someone with no arms play table tennis against someone with who is paralyzed from the waist down and to let someone with no legs compete in the 100m sprint against someone who is blind, they've made seperate categories. The athletes are only required to declare their disability, not their medical history, so they can be put in the right category and they do so willingly. Most of these disabilities are very obvious and I doubt these athletes are ashamed of them, definitely not when competing against equals. That is the power and beauty of the Paralympics.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

It is simple. An athlete considers their options. Compete with full TUE disclosure or take time off while effects of the banned substance is taking its course. No one is suggesting a gun to the head here.

Not all TUEs are just a short 1-week course for an inflammation. Not all TUEs are for non-embarrassing issues like asthma either. You're forcing people with long-term, personal/embarrassing issues to make an extremely complicated and frankly immoral decision. If you can't see how that's unethical, well, you are beyond my help.

I also cannot think of anything that should cause an athlete embarrassment, hardly ADHD, or asthma, heart irregularity, pollen allergy or other allergy. I mean if it is a serious ailment i doubt they would be competing.

I posted 3 possible issues in the post you quoted and you yourself came up with one just a few posts back. Do you need a TUE for some medication for dementia?
Fertility issues, mental disorders like depression, psychosis or schizophrenia, STDs are a few that come to mind.

Funny how many athletes will risk shortening their lifespans and take PEDs in the hope they win, but heck the argument of shortening careers is put forward!

I'm sure you realize I'm not an athlete nor am I advocating the use of PEDs which makes your argument irrelevant.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

It is simple. An athlete considers their options. Compete with full TUE disclosure or take time off while effects of the banned substance is taking its course. No one is suggesting a gun to the head here.

Not all TUEs are just a short 1-week course for an inflammation. Not all TUEs are for non-embarrassing issues like asthma either. You're forcing people with long-term, personal/embarrassing issues to make an extremely complicated and frankly immoral decision. If you can't see how that's unethical, well, you are beyond my help.

I also cannot think of anything that should cause an athlete embarrassment, hardly ADHD, or asthma, heart irregularity, pollen allergy or other allergy. I mean if it is a serious ailment i doubt they would be competing.

I posted 3 possible issues in the post you quoted and you yourself came up with one just a few posts back. Do you need a TUE for some medication for dementia?
Fertility issues, mental disorders like depression, psychosis or schizophrenia, STDs are a few that come to mind.

We'll have to disagree. I obviously need some TUEs if i am beyond help and serious ones.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You don't agree those illnesses are embarrassing for the people suffering from it and not something they'd want to throw out there?

 

[python]

@laflorecita
what you suggested i know, i dont. besides, i dont agree with your selective application of the good principle you advocate. agree, in some case the disability of some paralympians could be obvious, but it does not mean it is the case for others much less the disability could be multiple for a given athlete, some of which a disabled person may want to keep private. your point is plain discriminatory to the unfortunate paralympic athletes who may not mind a federation being aware of their disability - the way it is with their 'healthier' brethren in the 'normal' olympics - in stead of being forced to forfeit their personal privacy b/c the RULES DEMAND SO. it's a double standard against the 'cripples'. very clear to me.

@benny
let's take one of the very reasonable examples of privacy laflorecita sited - the need for keeping a persons infertility private. i buy that. turns out, the authorities dont WHEN it suits their goals or rules. for instance, an athletes tue for a low testosterone - a very important factor in infertility - has been disclosed by powers that be multiple times..when they were reasonably sure it was the right time. besides, some athletes, including the very best ones, dont mind when their low testo is known. boardman comes to mind but he's hardly the only one.

the bottom line is that the human being deserve an equal treatment and an equal claim to their privacy - unless they feel it's not very important. that's why i still remain a fan of boardman.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

@laflorecita
what you suggested i know, i dont. besides, i dont agree with your selective application of the good principle you advocate. agree, in some case the disability of some paralympians could be obvious, but it does not mean it is the case for others much less the disability could be multiple for a given athlete, some of which a disabled person may want to keep private. your point is plain discriminatory to the unfortunate paralympic athletes who may not mind a federation being aware of their disability - the way it is with their 'healthier' brethren in the 'normal' olympics - in stead of being forced to forfeit their personal privacy b/c the RULES DEMAND SO. it's a double standard against the 'cripples'. very clear to me.

I am done with this discussion. I won't let some anonymous poster on the internet accuse me of discriminatory behavior towards disabled people. I will not accept it. I respect all people and I keep their rights and their feelings in mind, unlike some others in this thread. Have a good day.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

You don't agree those illnesses are embarrassing for the people suffering from it and not something they'd want to throw out there?

No, i am a very open minded human being. I know people suffering from fertility issues, watched my grand father in law die from dementia, have a best friend suffering depression and dont know of anyone suffering from STDs (yet), but was openly asked to participate in a HIV test for research purposes last time i was in a hospital ward!

This is the 21stC. Yes some might well find those issues embarrassing, but some you listed would prohibit someone from competing.

I think there could be a period of time but athletes would know that say in 2 years all TUEs from that date forward would be made public if the athlete was in competition or close to competition.

Again, i think people have the choice. Face their issue or choose not to compete or compete at a lower level where transparency is requisite. Remember Paralympians have no choice if they want to compete. They are not forced to compete. I would argue that able body healthy athletes should be treated in an equal manner.

All this would not be necessary if sport was run and competed in a fair, moral and honest manner. The athletes know who to blame and it is not the fans.

 

[gooner]

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

 

[LaFlorecita]

People's medical records are confidential in pretty much every civilized country in the world (yes, athletes are people too). Confidential. It is their right to have it kept private unless they specifically state they do not mind to have it released or made available to others. Whether you (general) like it or not, this information cannot and will not be released.
Ideally the TUE system shouldn't be abused but you (general) cannot change that by asking for something that goes against both the law and the ethics of medical professionals. To me it seems obvious the TUE system needs a huge overhaul to prevent athletes from abusing the system whilst protecting the "innocent" athletes that truly need their TUE.

 

[gooner]

Re:

People's medical records are confidential in pretty much every civilized country in the world (yes, athletes are people too). Confidential. It is their right to have it kept private unless they specifically state they do not mind to have it released or made available to others. Whether you (general) like it or not, this information cannot and will not be released.
Ideally the TUE system shouldn't be abused but you (general) cannot change that by asking for something that goes against both the law and the ethics of medical professionals. To me it seems obvious the TUE system needs a huge overhaul to prevent athletes from abusing the system whilst protecting the "innocent" athletes that truly need their TUE.

Agree.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

So, you think this is a competition? I confess I rushed a little bit while reading the forum rules, but missed that completely. What are we competing for? What will I win in the end?

And just out of curiousity, what are the substances you think your fellow forum members are taking? Or "ordinary people" in their "daily jobs", for that matter?

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/04/can-i-increase-my-brain-power

Ok, they talk about Modafinil and Aderall, as potentially having an effect in brain power. I therefore remove myself from the competition, just so I don't have to be tested/having my medical history checked.

Hopefully you guys will let me keep doing out-of-competition posts, just because it's fun.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

So, you think this is a competition? I confess I rushed a little bit while reading the forum rules, but missed that completely. What are we competing for? What will I win in the end?

And just out of curiousity, what are the substances you think your fellow forum members are taking? Or "ordinary people" in their "daily jobs", for that matter?

That's their own business.

Your response just proves what I said yesterday. Perspective is lost when it comes to sport nowadays. Having protection of privacy is a clear cut right of no debate, irrespective of what line of work or sport you're doing. That it's competition is meaningless.

 

[python]

@ gooner
'If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on'
i agree. isn't it what benny and some others pointed to - let's try all being equal to a democratic principle of transparency or the human right for privacy...., or chose another job if competing with the healthy elites while being officially declared sick ?? you still did not address the double standard of the the privacy applied to the paralympians.

@ laflorecita
you said you're done to prove yourself wrong . i am done with you, not really except on this subject i see you too invested in an very good idea w/o considering the wider practical ramifications.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

So, you think this is a competition? I confess I rushed a little bit while reading the forum rules, but missed that completely. What are we competing for? What will I win in the end?

And just out of curiousity, what are the substances you think your fellow forum members are taking? Or "ordinary people" in their "daily jobs", for that matter?

That's their own business.

Your response just proves what I said yesterday. Perspective is lost when it comes to sport nowadays. Having protection of privacy is a clear cut right of no debate, irrespective of what line of work or sport you're doing. That it's competition is meaningless.

That it's competition is not meaningless, that is the point. Because it's a competition, it requires well-defined rules, in the name of fairness. You can't "touch the ball with your hand", stuff like that. At your line of work, whatever it is, you can touch the ball with your hand or any body part. It's not a competition, nobody cares.

What don't you understand about this concept?

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

So, you think this is a competition? I confess I rushed a little bit while reading the forum rules, but missed that completely. What are we competing for? What will I win in the end?

And just out of curiousity, what are the substances you think your fellow forum members are taking? Or "ordinary people" in their "daily jobs", for that matter?

That's their own business.

Your response just proves what I said yesterday. Perspective is lost when it comes to sport nowadays. Having protection of privacy is a clear cut right of no debate, irrespective of what line of work or sport you're doing. That it's competition is meaningless.

That it's competition is not meaningless, that is the point. Because it's a competition, it requires well-defined rules, in the name of fairness. You can't "touch the ball with your hand", stuff like that. At your line of work, whatever it is, you can touch the ball with your hand or any body part. It's not a competition, nobody cares.

What don't you understand about this concept?

Yet no rule has been broken everyone on the list has followed the correct procedure, they do not deserve to have there private medical matters dragged into the public eye because frankly it's none of our *** business. I am sorry but it's insane to expect anybody to disclose there medical conditions for some witch trial like notion of "transparency".

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

That it's competition is not meaningless, that is the point. Because it's a competition, it requires well-defined rules, in the name of fairness. You can't "touch the ball with your hand", stuff like that. At your line of work, whatever it is, you can touch the ball with your hand or any body part. It's not a competition, nobody cares.

What don't you understand about this concept?

It's that it IS a private matter for all and one of a clear cut matter. That is judged on its own merit and competition or daily work shouldn't compromise the protection of that.

If you say it's none of your business to someone, you can't then say to someone else it is just because of some sport you follow.

Don't give me this, that you shouldn't disclose your medical history as it's not competition when for you and everyone else it's the privacy issue deep down. Pull the wool over someone else's eyes.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

Why don't we all here release our medical history and the prescriptions we have got.

You know in the interest of equality and all.

Guarantee the privacy card comes in then.

If anything there isn't equality when you're asking something of a sports person that the ordinary person in his daily job has protection of privacy on.

So, you think this is a competition? I confess I rushed a little bit while reading the forum rules, but missed that completely. What are we competing for? What will I win in the end?

And just out of curiousity, what are the substances you think your fellow forum members are taking? Or "ordinary people" in their "daily jobs", for that matter?

That's their own business.

Your response just proves what I said yesterday. Perspective is lost when it comes to sport nowadays. Having protection of privacy is a clear cut right of no debate, irrespective of what line of work or sport you're doing. That it's competition is meaningless.

That it's competition is not meaningless, that is the point. Because it's a competition, it requires well-defined rules, in the name of fairness. You can't "touch the ball with your hand", stuff like that. At your line of work, whatever it is, you can touch the ball with your hand or any body part. It's not a competition, nobody cares.

What don't you understand about this concept?

Yet no rule has been broken everyone on the list has followed the correct procedure, they do not deserve to have there private medical matters dragged into the public eye because frankly it's none of our **** business. I am sorry but it's insane to expect anybody to disclose there medical conditions for some witch trial like notion of "transparency".

you're out of context. try to read back to understand what the discussion is about.

It's not about deserving or not. What's being defended here is that sportspeople that wish to engage in legal doping should justify it, if they want to keep competing with healthy people. If that is to be allowed (sick legal-dopers competing with healthy non-dopers), then it should be made transparent in the name of public interest. There's no way around transparency and the need to give away your privacy in sports.

Think about it: a kid that has an issue with his age being known cannot compete, they wouldn't know in what age category to put him. It needs to be known so that a 17 year old is not competing with 15 year olds. It wouldn't be fair.

It's not hard to get, I think.

P.S. Obviously the fairest solution would be to apply the paralympic rules to everybody. Sick asthmatic cyclists should race amongst themselves, if they wish/need to use banned substances, that's what I defend. Either way, privacy-wise, the result is the same.

 

[MmeDesgrange]

With the old heamatocrit level of 50% there was an enforced rest period of 1 week for 'health reasons'

Surely a similar rest period could be enforced with a TUE for a one off serious illness a la Froome and his prednilosone or Wiggins and his Kenacort or other? If you're ill enough to need X then you have a mandatory rest period.

Obviously applies to one offs like emergency TUEs not ongoing conditions

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

That it's competition is not meaningless, that is the point. Because it's a competition, it requires well-defined rules, in the name of fairness. You can't "touch the ball with your hand", stuff like that. At your line of work, whatever it is, you can touch the ball with your hand or any body part. It's not a competition, nobody cares.

What don't you understand about this concept?

It's that it IS a private matter for all and one of a clear cut matter. That is judged on its own merit and competition or daily work shouldn't compromise the protection of that.

NO, you missed the point, again. Privacy is not and shouldn't be sacred, if you want to compete. The need for this is very clear: fairness in competition. So that 18 year olds are not competing with 14 year olds, their age has to be known. If you want to keep your age private, you don't compete, that's it. Think!

If you say it's none of your business to someone, you can't then say to someone else it is just because of some sport you follow.

I didn't say that, I said I'm not competing. I removed myself from the forum competition. Again, please, regard my posts as out-of-competition posts, I do it just for the fun of it, somebody else can keep the medals.

Don't give me this, that you shouldn't disclose your medical history as it's not competition (...)

[/quote]
I just gave you. Twice.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

NO, you missed the point, again. Privacy is not and shouldn't be sacred, if you want to compete. The need for this is very clear: fairness in competition. So that 18 year olds are not competing with 14 year olds, their age has to be known. If you want to keep your age private, you don't compete, that's it. Think!

Non-sequitur. It is not the same. Just as someone's weight for what division they are fighting in.

I didn't say that, I said I'm not competing. I removed myself from the forum competition. Again, please, regard my posts as out-of-competition posts, I do it just for the fun of it, somebody else can keep the medals.

I know you're not competing on the forum but that doesn't matter to me when talking about whether this should be in the public domain. I see privacy on this as a sole issue on it's own merit.

I just gave you. Twice.

You left out the rest of the quote.

when for you and everyone else it's the privacy issue deep down. Pull the wool over someone else's eyes.

That's the crux of why you wouldn't do it, nothing to do with competition.