Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE's)

[veji11]

Re:

It is indeed a bit hard to explain how a guy like Voeckler was able to mix it with the best in the mountains just that one year...yeah I know the yellow jersey gives you extra strength, but still...has he ever been asked?

Voeckler was actually very strong already in 2010 and in 2012 as well... But it makes you think that maybe good cyclists like Wiggo and Voeckler (because they were always good in their own way) suddenly became very very good thanks to some clever tricks.. And they might not be the only ones, who knows if they didn't just level the playing field...

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

It is indeed a bit hard to explain how a guy like Voeckler was able to mix it with the best in the mountains just that one year...yeah I know the yellow jersey gives you extra strength, but still...has he ever been asked?

Voeckler was actually very strong already in 2010 and in 2012 as well... But it makes you think that maybe good cyclists like Wiggo and Voeckler (because they were always good in their own way) suddenly became very very good thanks to some clever tricks.. And they might not be the only ones, who knows if they didn't just level the playing field...

Indeed, I would imagine all teams are using corticosteroids to some extent if their 'drs' are worth their medical degree ...

 

[webvan]

There's no denying that Voeckler's always been a "strong" rider, but not a GT rider, not good enough in the mountains, even worse in the ITT and maybe lacking in "recovery" abilities. I suppose it also explains why he never went for GC, and of course he was in his prime in the "dark" years, so...still 2011 remains an anomaly in the sense that he was in the mix with the best in the high mountains, never happened before or after.

A French doctor called Pierre Sallet who keeps close tabs on doping recently said "You start with all the medicine that's not on the list, then move on to TUEs and then to outright doping". Sad but certainly true. On the other hand why would teams not use all they legally can to get their riders at the top even if it's not "right" to take medicine to boost your performance even if it isn't on a list ? Shouldn't the rule be that no medicine is allowed unless it's used to treat a specific illness?

 

[veji11]

Re:

There's no denying that Voeckler's always been a "strong" rider, but not a GT rider, not good enough in the mountains, even worse in the ITT and maybe lacking in "recovery" abilities. I suppose it also explains why he never went for GC, and of course he was in his prime in the "dark" years, so...still 2011 remains an anomaly in the sense that he was in the mix with the best in the high mountains, never happened before or after.

A French doctor called Pierre Sallet who keeps close tabs on doping recently said "You start with all the medicine that's not on the list, then move on to TUEs and then to outright doping". Sad but certainly true. On the other hand why would teams not use all they legally can to get their riders at the top even if it's not "right" to take medicine to boost your performance even if it isn't on a list ? Shouldn't the rule be that no medicine is allowed unless it's used to treat a specific illness?

Yep, I mean the Sharapova positive was a direct consequence of cocking up in her cocktail of drugs in forgetting to remove a drug that had now been banned but that she had been taking for years for no other reason than to improve her performance...

Really you start to think that maybe top athletes should have TUE for everyhing, ie never ever take a medicine without reporting it. The whole issue seems without solution really.

 

[pastronef]

fantastic tweet from Gaimon

https://www.twitter.com/philgaimon/status/778244127263719424

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

It is indeed a bit hard to explain how a guy like Voeckler was able to mix it with the best in the mountains just that one year...yeah I know the yellow jersey gives you extra strength, but still...has he ever been asked?

Voeckler was actually very strong already in 2010 and in 2012 as well... But it makes you think that maybe good cyclists like Wiggo and Voeckler (because they were always good in their own way) suddenly became very very good thanks to some clever tricks.. And they might not be the only ones, who knows if they didn't just level the playing field...

Indeed, I would imagine all teams are using corticosteroids to some extent if their 'drs' are worth their medical degree ...

Firstly, Voeckler started out in contention thanks to "that" breakaway where he took yellow. Then he stayed in contention because the Pyrenees were raced very conservatively. Voeckler never had an interest in GC beyond holding the jersey as long as possible in 2004 where he did quite well. The rest of his career he targeted individual stages with no consideration for the next day.

Secondly, has everyone forgotten Pierre Rolland and his "enforced break" for very low cortisol levels? If Rolland was using corticos at Europcar, why wouldn't Voeckler?

 

[webvan]

Must admit I didn't remember Rolland being told to "rest", will look it up.

Millar, a doping expert, weighs in on TUEs : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-says-wiggins-tue-drugs-should-be-banned/

"You would do all the training but my weight would stick," he said. "But if I took Kenacort, 1.5-2kgs would drop off in like a week. And not only would the weight drop off, I would feel stronger.

"If you are non-asthmatic and you take Ventolin it's not going to give you any advantage. But if you take Kenacort it's not only going to make a sick person better, it's going to make a sick person better than a healthy person. That’s a very grey area.

Does explain a few things doesn't it...

 

[heart_attack_man]

It certainly explains skeletons climbing like Tenzing Norgay, that's for sure.

 

[CTQ]

Team Novo Nordisk :
https://twitter.com/teamnovonordisk/status/778181991179100177
@Velorooms all of the riders on our Pro team are living with type 1 diabetes, which means each must take insulin ▶︎ http://www.teamnovonordisk.com/what-is-diabetes/ …


7. TUE validity and recommended review process

In type 1 diabetes with clearly established primary diagnosis and in type 2 diabetes
with proven need for insulin therapy, the recommended duration of a TUE for
diabetes is 10 years with an annual review by a specialist physician.

i don't remember who or where, but someone posted about the subject.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/wada-tpg-diabetes_mellitus-3.0-en.pdf

 

[Catwhoorg]

Thanks CTQ for that link.
A recommended 10 years duration makes sense

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

The other obvious question is, if the Sky TUEs are such a glaring abuse of the TUE system, why is everyone else not doing it? It's common sense to expect that lots of people would be helping themselves to some "legalised doping", but the UCI TUE web page records only 13 TUEs for 2015.

your approach is not productive, since the reasoning you're trying to imply has some serious faults. What you're trying to do is the same as asking, for instance:

if the twin towers were blown up by some saudi terrorists in planes why weren't their bodies found?

It doesn't matter if bodies were found. When you consider something, you look at the evidence for that something, not at what you expect to find but is missing. It's incorrect reasoning.

The same way, when you're trying to assess if Sky abused the TUE system, you look at the evidence of Sky doing that, not at what you think others would have done.

There is evidence of a plot carried out by saudi terrorists. And there is evidence of abuse of TUEs by Sky. The discussion ends here.

Clear?

 

[webvan]

Not really, while it "makes sense" that you couldn't find the remains of the terrorists, it should be easy enough to find the TUEs filed with the UCI or the local federation. It's possibly just a case of our Russian friends not having gotten to the end of their list of course.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

Not really, while it "makes sense" that you couldn't find the remains of the terrorists, it should be easy enough to find the TUEs filed with the UCI or the local federation. It's possibly just a case of our Russian friends not having gotten to the end of their list of course.

I'm pointing out the wrong approach, or the incorrect reasoning it implies. There's no point in putting into question something we already know it's true, like Sky abusing TUEs.

it should be easy enough to find the TUEs filed with the UCI

No. If you want to look for Sky, you search for Sky. Those were found, and you'll know that if you've been in Earth for the past week or so. What other teams did or didn't do is not relevant for the case.

 

[webvan]

Of course it's relevant since the bottom line is to understand if they were getting an undue advantage over other teams thanks to "tools" that they were allowed to use and not others.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

Of course it's relevant since the bottom line is to understand if they were getting an undue advantage over other teams thanks to "tools" that they were allowed to use and not others.

No. Read harder, please. This is what he said:

The other obvious question is, if the Sky TUEs are such a glaring abuse of the TUE system, why is everyone else not doing it? It's common sense to expect that lots of people would be helping themselves to some "legalised doping", but the UCI TUE web page records only 13 TUEs for 2015.

You're making up a new "bottom line".

 

[Franklin]

Many national doping agencies are allowed to issue TUE themselves....

I noticed on the UCI website that TUEs may be issued by national anti doping agencies, and these will be accepted by the UCI. However it wasn't clear to me if the total on the UCI site was all TUEs or only TUEs issued directly by the UCI. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this?

This is a very good spot. Based on the wording of the website I think that they are only talking about TUEs that are actually granted by the UCI, not all TUEs accepted.

I'm not a doctor, but 13 tue's in the pro peloton seems improbable. Wouldn't even a squeaky clean peloton would be rife with TUE's due to respiratory issues, injuries and disease?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Of course it's relevant since the bottom line is to understand if they were getting an undue advantage over other teams thanks to "tools" that they were allowed to use and not others.

This thought is quite possible, but then i guess athletes would be on social media talking about how they were refused TUEs for Trimacoline....

I think the TUEs are a small part of the cocktail.

 

[webvan]

Yep, we're not getting the full picture...yet!

 

[doperhopper]

Applying for Clinic TUE.

Just realized I have to apply for cortico TUE as I'm right in the middle of a nasty eczema treatment (so slightly backdated, LA style - but it's doctor's fault).

Otherwise there would be questions why the posts are suddenly extraordinary lean, yet with more power per letter.

Anyone else with some skeletons in the needle/pillbox?

 

[webvan]

So...Brad's on TV tomorrow...is that a good idea to have him and his big mouth try to explain the unexplainable on TV ?! The likely scenario is "open mouth, insert foot", next !

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So...Brad's on TV tomorrow...is that a good idea to have him and his big mouth try to explain the unexplainable on TV ?! The likely scenario is "open mouth, insert foot", next !

David Walsh ‏@DavidWalshST 49m ago
I've seen transcript of Andrew Marr interview with Bradley Wiggins. BW and his people chose well! #don'tholdyourbreath

 

[webvan]

Oh well...

In the meantime Dumoulin think it's "cheating", who doesn't ? http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1042009/dumoulin-claims-applying-for-tues-is-cheating-following-fancy-bears-revelations

 

[rata de sentina]

Re:

Oh well...

In the meantime Dumoulin think it's "cheating", who doesn't ?

Sour grapes. He's just jealous he hasn't got asthma.

 

[bonaqua]

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/09/russian-hackers-release-galen-rupp-shalane-flanagan-anti-doping-data/

One thing to note is that Alberto Salazar, in his open letter defending the practices of his Nike Oregon Project in response to the BBC/Pro Publica investigation, wrote that “Galen has only received two (his emphasis) TUEs in his running career since 2010.” Neither of these TUEs since 2010 were in the Fancy Bear data released, so either Fancy Bears does not have access to athletes’ complete anti-doping records or is not releasing all the information.
If anything, this hack is a good thing for Galen Rupp. In the past, he and coach Alberto Salazar have been accused of manipulating the TUE system, claims they have denied. Alberto Salazar has admitted that Galen had more TUEs than the Fancy Bears hackers released.

Interesting notes: Salazar lying that Rupp has more TUEs ? FancyBear does not release all TUEs at the moment ? FancyBear does not have access to all TUEs ?

 

[Electress]

Re:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/09/russian-hackers-release-galen-rupp-shalane-flanagan-anti-doping-data/

One thing to note is that Alberto Salazar, in his open letter defending the practices of his Nike Oregon Project in response to the BBC/Pro Publica investigation, wrote that “Galen has only received two (his emphasis) TUEs in his running career since 2010.” Neither of these TUEs since 2010 were in the Fancy Bear data released, so either Fancy Bears does not have access to athletes’ complete anti-doping records or is not releasing all the information.
If anything, this hack is a good thing for Galen Rupp. In the past, he and coach Alberto Salazar have been accused of manipulating the TUE system, claims they have denied. Alberto Salazar has admitted that Galen had more TUEs than the Fancy Bears hackers released.

Interesting notes: Salazar lying that Rupp has more TUEs ? FancyBear does not release all TUEs at the moment ? FancyBear does not have access to all TUEs ?

Fancy Bear / Vlad. knowing that there's more damage with drip drip drip?