Thoughts on classification winners in grand tours

[Valv.Piti]

In short, green jerseys caters too much to pure sprinters (wouldnt matter much this year) and KOM too much to GC-riders. So either less points on completely flat stages or more on the others, and then you wanna make the gap closer from 4/3/2 categories and 1/HC. Thats about it IMO.

If a weird jersey can make them race harder, then Im also all for that

 

[Netserk]

In short, green jerseys caters too much to pure sprinters (wouldnt matter much this year) and KOM too much to GC-riders. So either less points on completely flat stages or more on the others, and then you wanna make the gap closer from 4/3/2 categories and 1/HC. Thats about it IMO.

If a weird jersey can make them race harder, then Im also all for that

In short, back to the 2010 rules.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Some of the additional jerseys that have been awarded variously over the years for a consideration of the 'fourth award':

1) Metas Volantes / Intermediate Sprints:
This is the most immediately obvious one of course, but at the moment is rendered a bit pointless by a few factors, such as the importance of the intermediate sprints for the maillot vert, the disincentivisation of breakaway activity and the way that such a competition usually works in short stage races which gives rise to a perception of its lack of value, where somebody will get in the break on stage 1, go again on stage 2 and open up an unassailable lead. Or, worse, something like Coryn Rivera in the 2018 Women's Tour, where the bonus seconds were crucial for the GC so she ended up winning the competition without ever leaving the péloton, the precise opposite of what it was intended for.

2) Intergiro:
A cult favourite of many, the Intergiro basically has a mid-stage point where time is taken and it is then treated like a legit GC, so that the breakaway riders can duke out their role as the king of the breakaway. It would also to an extent rather supersede Super Combativité, however. In latter years, however, we would see breaks pulled back for sprinters to get bonus seconds in the Intergiro, Massimo Strazzer was particularly notorious for this. It would need its own sprint that was not related to the time bonus sprints or the green jersey intermediate in order to be effective, I feel.

3) Combiné:
The Combiné is, if we're honest, both the most 'classic' and the least worthy inclusion because it isn't much greater than the youth jersey in terms of not really having a competition for the jersey itself, with current parcours trends and the domination of certain riders in it, it probably ends up being what it ended up as in Spain in latter years, the jersey worn by 2nd on GC because the GC winner invariably won it. From its introduction in 2002 to its final inclusion in 2018, only three times did the GC winner not win the combiné as well - 2002 Heras won it coming 2nd to Aitor González, 2003 Valverde won it coming 3rd, and 2012 Valverde won it coming 2nd to Contador. 3/17 is not a good record.

4) Italian style Combiné:
In 2006 the Giro tried an interesting twist on the Combiné, awarding points after each stage for the top positions in each of the major competitions. This meant for the classification it was just as useful to be top of a lesser competition for a while as it was to lead the GC because you wouldn't just inherit a strong position in the classification by default. It did, however, have a bit of a goofy wrinkle that meant that Paolo Savoldelli by winning the prologue - which included a small hill - got the lead of all 3 classifications off the bat, and because all stages paid the same points in those days, that kept him up near the top of both the points and GPM standings in week 1 before his fellow GC contenders came into the hunt for the classification, so despite finishing nearly 20 minutes down on Basso he was classified the "most complete" rider in the Giro and wore the jersey from day one to the end, which seemed silly.

5) Activity Classification:
An old Ostbloc specialty, this was an awesome classification, but I'm not really sure if it could work - or even be operable - in modern cycling. Essentially, the classification would give points for the first few riders past intermediate sprints, mountain summits, and at the finishing line - but only if you were in a group of 10 or fewer. You would gain bonus points for each 10 seconds your group finished ahead of the next group on the road as well, to incentivise pushing on deeper into the stage and adding time to your adversaries. I love it as an idea, but I'm not sure of its practical application in 2024.

 

[Valv.Piti]

In short, back to the 2010 rules.

I think so, yes.

I don't have a problem with the white jersey. However, its quite apparant that this is a different sport compared to the 00's for example when you had much lesser talents leading and winning the competition like Karpets, Fothen etc. I guess something like reducing it to 23 or 24 would maybe make it better, but honestly, who cares?

 

[red_flanders]

Being a young rider jersey holder actually makes it harder to compete for yellow. It’s all the post race obligations on time with none of the yellow

You're correct, it does make it harder to compete for yellow, but I'm not sure it's a meaningful difference. Or a big enough difference to matter. In the case of Remco, I'm thinking he doesn't mind at all, in fact I think he likes it quite a bit. And the teams love the exposure.

I think this generation values the media exposure a lot more than previous generations, and I think this will continue, generally. Being interviewed every day, getting on the podium, warming down with the other jersey leaders, starting up front, it's all exposure the riders and teams benefit from in the modern media atmosphere. Great for the brand. Basically the exposure and taking advantage of it equals a ton of additional revenue.

 

[Red Rick]

IMO the value of the white jersey was mainly to give teams a reason to let talented younger riders ride for themselves in an era where it was often hard for them to get the leadership opportunities they deserved. That way of thinking has disappeared from the sport, and contrary to the young supergeneration we are looking at right now it is likely to be a permanent change, and hence I think the argument to scrap the white jersey altogether makes more sense than to bring down the age limit.

An activity jersey or a true Intergiro would be nice prizes for smaller teams, but in effect it's really just giving them an additional scrap to fight for while the happy few continue to dominate. IMO, much better to crack down on disparities in both budget and nutrition/training methods (ahem) between teams than to address minor classifications.

Finally, the best way to help the KOM jersey is to shift a bit of the GC focus from the big climbs to the cobbles/gravel/hills/mid-mountains. Makes the GC much more of a test who's the best overall rider rather than being 80% about pure climbing like it is now, thereby freeing up the purer climbers to target the KOM once more.

Compare the stage 11 results with the GC. Medium mountains in GTs are just climber fests with very minor differences.

The real reason KOMs are dead is 2fold

1. Mountain stages have gotten a lot worse, with less climbing overall and shorter distances easier to control for a single team.
2. Team strength has gotten more lopsided, and I think the climbing ability of modern rouleur domestiques especially don't get highlighted at all. Like does anyone remember Sky in 2012 literally pacing early climbs with climbing legend Mark Cavendish at some point?

Overall - it's hard to feel like the entire archetype of KoM/stage hunter is dying out. Especially at the Tour where it's just Pogacar and Vingegaard hoarding them all up.

 

[scribers]

You're correct, it does make it harder to compete for yellow, but I'm not sure it's a meaningful difference. Or a big enough difference to matter. In the case of Remco, I'm thinking he doesn't mind at all, in fact I think he likes it quite a bit. And the teams love the exposure.

I think this generation values the media exposure a lot more than previous generations, and I think this will continue, generally. Being interviewed every day, getting on the podium, warming down with the other jersey leaders, starting up front, it's all exposure the riders and teams benefit from in the modern media atmosphere. Great for the brand. Basically the exposure and taking advantage of it equals a ton of additional revenue.

Pogi spent so much time in white I wonder why the old timers talk about the advantage of giving the yellow away. Pogi spent all those years stuck in white and all of the podium crap. Why would he not want yellow now? (I know his team might not like controlling everything)

 

[SHAD0W93]

I suppose that you could argue that in 2010, it was also won by a future Tour winner - Schleck - it's just that the "future" Tour in question was the 2010 Tour, that he won... in 2012.

But now I'm wondering; when was the last time we had an actual battle for white in the Tour? We had one this year in the Giro.
In 2021, sure, Pogacar and Vingegaard were battling it out - with Pogacar having the clear advantage - but they were battling for yellow, it just so happened that they were both young enough to also be in the BYR competition.
A similar - and much closer - situation played out between Geoghegan Hart and Hindley in the 2020 Giro.

The ones that come to mind:
2006 Tour between Cunego and Fothen 38”
2008 Tour between Schleck and Kreuziger 1’27”
2011 Tour between Rolland and Taaramäe 46”
2013 Tour was a battle between Quintana and Kwiatkowski until Quintana powered away the final week 13’19 but over Talansky
2014 Tour was a battle between Pinot and Bardet but Pinot was better the final week 3’11”

 

[red_flanders]

Pogi spent so much time in white I wonder why the old timers talk about the advantage of giving the yellow away. Pogi spent all those years stuck in white and all of the podium crap. Why would he not want yellow now? (I know his team might not like controlling everything)

Yeah, I think it's mostly a team concern.

 

[scribers]

I see Pogi like in Talledega Nights when Cal asks if Ricky if he (Cal) can win a race one time. And Ricky Bobby (Pogi) is like, "no that's not going to happen. "

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How about an anti-combativity award? Could be a pointy hat or something that a rider would be forced to wear, if he was deemed to either have no influence on the racing or a negative impact.

 

[hayneplane]

I think it used to make sense when young riders weren’t so good. It was an indication of possible talents. Now that the young riders are also fighting for yellow it makes less sense.

Most years back in the Armstrong era the white jersey was being won by a rider finishing outside the final top 10 on GC.

With how good the younger generation are and so prepared to go for glory in their first 2 years as pros it would make sense to change to an under 23 category plus tour debutants of any age.

 

[red_flanders]

I see Pogi like in Talledega Nights when Cal asks if Ricky if he (Cal) can win a race one time. And Ricky Bobby (Pogi) is like, "no that's not going to happen. "

Well we saw what Cal did to Ricky after that. Urška seems nicer than Ricky Bobby's wife though.

Does that make Vingo Jean Girard?

 

[Squire]

In short, back to the 2010 rules.

Wouldn't mind that. I don't think Sagan should have been 'punished' for being by far the best at scoring consistent stage finishes/getting intermediate sprints. I quite enjoyed the Hushovd/Cavendish fight for green in 2009 as well.

The KOM jersey was also generally more interesting in the 2010s. But I think the main problem here is, as has been alluded to, that there aren't enough medium mountain stages or flat stages that have a few more climbs than the boring processional ones with one or two 4th cats that we've had this year. I don't think the 'Premier League cycling' is a big problem in terms of KOM fights. With how outclassed even mid-level WT teams are by the big boys, I think it can still be attractive. But it's of course no use going for it when Pogi scoops up massive points in every non-flat stage.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

His pulls for Vingegaard on stage 11 and his risky attack on himself towards the finish actually had an impact on the race, to be fair.

 

[jmdirt]

I suppose that you could argue that in 2010, it was also won by a future Tour winner - Schleck - it's just that the "future" Tour in question was the 2010 Tour, that he won... in 2012.

But now I'm wondering; when was the last time we had an actual battle for white in the Tour? We had one this year in the Giro.
In 2021, sure, Pogacar and Vingegaard were battling it out - with Pogacar having the clear advantage - but they were battling for yellow, it just so happened that they were both young enough to also be in the BYR competition.
A similar - and much closer - situation played out between Geoghegan Hart and Hindley in the 2020 Giro.

2012 (?) TJVG and Pinot were close right?

 

[dercuforever]

If I'm pogi I am trying to figure out how to win that green jersey too

Well, that's easy, you get a camera on those sprinter groups in Isola stages, so that they don't get towed by cars.
all of them OTL, Green Jersey it is.

 

[jmdirt]

The ones that come to mind:
2006 Tour between Cunego and Fothen 38”
2008 Tour between Schleck and Kreuziger 1’27”
2011 Tour between Rolland and Taaramäe 46”
2013 Tour was a battle between Quintana and Kwiatkowski until Quintana powered away the final week 13’19 but over Talansky
2014 Tour was a battle between Pinot and Bardet but Pinot was better the final week 3’11”

When I typed TJVG and Pinot, I also had Taramae in my head, but I couldn't remember who was in which year? Maybe 2012 wasn't as close as I remember...or don't remember as might be the case.

Just a hop OT for a second here: that was TJVG best TdF IMO (even though he also got 5th in 2014) (2015 was looking really good but...)

 

[hayneplane]

You're correct, it does make it harder to compete for yellow, but I'm not sure it's a meaningful difference. Or a big enough difference to matter. In the case of Remco, I'm thinking he doesn't mind at all, in fact I think he likes it quite a bit. And the teams love the exposure.

I think this generation values the media exposure a lot more than previous generations, and I think this will continue, generally. Being interviewed every day, getting on the podium, warming down with the other jersey leaders, starting up front, it's all exposure the riders and teams benefit from in the modern media atmosphere. Great for the brand. Basically the exposure and taking advantage of it equals a ton of additional revenue.

Think Remco is most enjoying the backstage buddy time with Tadej

 

[zlev11]

or how about a jersey for the worst descender?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

or how about a jersey for the worst descender?

Look what happens when people try following him on descents:

 

[zlev11]

Look what happens when people try following him on descents:

yeah probably crashed because he was making him nervous

 

[SHAD0W93]

2012 (?) TJVG and Pinot were close right?

TJVG won by 6’13 and was in no danger due to the course design.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

or how about a jersey for the worst descender?

I can only hope they would give Evenepoel that jersey. Maybe then the team would finally realize it.

But that 's probably not what you wanted to hear.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Wouldn't mind that. I don't think Sagan should have been 'punished' for being by far the best at scoring consistent stage finishes/getting intermediate sprints. I quite enjoyed the Hushovd/Cavendish fight for green in 2009 as well.

Hushovd was close in 2010 as well, 10 behind Cav and 11 Petacchi. He just didn’t have it in the sprints to finish high anymore.