Tim Kerrison

[thehog]

Once again, this is what I do not get and.. that is how do you know for sure that it is truth...?

You are just making suppositions like the next man in the street and they may be true and they may not be...

It's a good question.

Just as much is how do you know what you've been told is the truth?

Some facts.

The 2010 winner of the Tour tested positive. The 3rd place getter in 2009 has been revealed as part of a doping conspiracy. The 2011 3rd place tested positive in 2012 along with paying a know drug doctor for training plans. His brother finished 2nd in 2011, 2010 and 2009. A "helper" for the 2011 winner was caught importing 50 vials of EPO just before the Tour.

Cycling is not much different than it was in 1999, 2005 or 2007.

Let's just say you're right.

Knowing what we know. Sky's performance this year was one astronomical, amazing performance by the entire team. Not at any point did they look like losing from day 1. Clean?

All I ask is to trust your own eyes.

When was the last time you saw a guy ride up the final HC mountain pass with one hand on the handlebar gesturing to the other riders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo9lgORl_zA&sns=em

Tell me what you think rather than what Sky is telling you to think.

Is that normal? In your own words.

If Wiggins and Froome were Italian or Spanish how would you feel about their performances?

 

[zlev11]

When was the last time you saw a guy ride up the final HC mountain pass with one hand on the handlebar gesturing to the other riders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo9lgORl_zA&sns=em

Piepoli on Hautacam?

 

[thehog]

Surprised Tim wasn't credited with some new wonder food alla Rice Cakes.
No mention of Jodie Henry,s rather abrupt retirement In the midst of a Australian Swimming doping scandal in Froome,s write up...

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...t-of-destruction/story-e6frfmqi-1226368011783

Yes and those Aussie swimmers ended up like Gary Neiwand with serious anger management issues when they were taken from the "program".

 

[armchairclimber]

It's a good question.

Just as much is how do you know what you've been told is the truth?

Some facts.

The 2010 winner of the Tour tested positive. The 3rd place getter in 2009 has been revealed as part of a doping conspiracy. The 2011 3rd place tested positive in 2012 along with paying a know drug doctor for training plans. His brother finished 2nd in 2011, 2010 and 2009. A "helper" for the 2011 winner was caught importing 50 vials of EPO just before the Tour.

Cycling is not much different than it was in 1999, 2005 or 2007.

Let's just say you're right.

Knowing what we know. Sky's performance this year was one astronomical, amazing performance by the entire team. Not at any point did they look like losing from day 1. Clean?

All I ask is to trust your own eyes.

When was the last time you saw a guy ride up the final HC mountain pass with one hand on the handlebar gesturing to the other riders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo9lgORl_zA&sns=em

Tell me what you think rather than what Sky is telling you to think.

Is that normal? In your own words.

If Wiggins and Froome were Italian or Spanish how would you feel about their performances?

That is just not true. You're viewing with hindsight. They looked strong, sure, but the dominance wasn't obvious from the get go. be honest now.

 

[thehog]

That is just not true. You're viewing with hindsight. They looked strong, sure, but the dominance wasn't obvious from the get go. be honest now.

Seriously. Not dominent?

You do realise that that Wiggins/Sky held the yellow jersey for a race record number of days don't you? Not since Hinault had the jersey been held from start to finish like Wiggins did.

We were all saying at the time that there was one team in the race - Sky.

I honestly couldn't see how anyone else could win. And this was a team with one sprinter and lost a guy in the first week!

Never seen anything like in all my years of watching cycling.

Unbelievable. Froome with his one arm riding up cols made it even more ridiculous.

If that was normal I'd hate to see "not normal".

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You do realise that that Wiggins/Sky held the yellow jersey for a race record number of days don't you? Not since Hinault had the jersey been held from start to finish like Wiggins did.

...

If that was normal I'd hate to see "not normal".

I'm not saying Sky weren't dominant, as they were. But one does have to wonder about your recall/memory/attention to detail etc.

Firstly, Wiggins didn't hold the jersey from start to finish. He was second in the Prologue, and only "took Yellow" after stage 7 or so.

Secondly, as a result of this initial dodgy claim, your claim that Wiggo held the jersey for a record number of days cannot be true, unless when The Badger held the jersey from start to finish it was a two week version of the Tour.

Thirdly, before deciding whether what you saw was normal, it would be good to ensure that you're certain precisely which race you were watching, as based on your description of Wiggo's jersey holding exploits above, it's not entirely obvious which race you're talking about.

Still compared to your claim that Wiggo rode flat out in the 2009 Giri mountain stages and lost over 2 hours on the flat to finish 71st, before finishing 4th in the Tour, your latest analysis represents a definite step up in terms of quality of reasoning. An unbelievable step up, some might say. Have you been on holiday to Tenerife recently?

Finially, I checked the 2009 Giro stage results. Surprisingly to you, but probably not to anyone else, Wiggo lost a shed load of time in the mountain stages and close to b*gger all on the flat.

 

[armchairclimber]

Seriously. Not dominent?

You do realise that that Wiggins/Sky held the yellow jersey for a race record number of days don't you? Not since Hinault had the jersey been held from start to finish like Wiggins did.

We were all saying at the time that there was one team in the race - Sky.

I honestly couldn't see how anyone else could win. And this was a team with one sprinter and lost a guy in the first week!

Never seen anything like in all my years of watching cycling.

Unbelievable. Froome with his one arm riding up cols made it even more ridiculous.

If that was normal I'd hate to see "not normal".

He got a lead and all he needed to do was mark his near rivals...you know this. He wasn't really challenged until Nibali had a pop in the mountains. The TT gave him such a margin that attacks looked futile...SKY didn't have to work as hard as they might have done were that not the case.

Tactically, they got it right...limit the opportunities for anyone to take lumps of time by keeping the pace high....they had the leader, who happened to be the rider best equipped for sustained high pace.

Contador would have made life hell for them. Nibali wasn't up to it.

 

[thehog]

He got a lead and all he needed to do was mark his near rivals...you know this. He wasn't really challenged until Nibali had a pop in the mountains. The TT gave him such a margin that attacks looked futile...SKY didn't have to work as hard as they might have done were that not the case.

Tactically, they got it right...limit the opportunities for anyone to take lumps of time by keeping the pace high....they had the leader, who happened to be the rider best equipped for sustained high pace.

Contador would have made life hell for them. Nibali wasn't up to it.

Of course it was that easy!

Good grief!

You do know how you "keep the pace that high" for 2500km don't you?

 

[armchairclimber]

Of course it was that easy!

Good grief!

You do know how you "keep the pace that high" for 2500km don't you?

Yep, it's a bit harder than for the fella that finishes 2nd or 3rd or 10th. It's called racing. Dear me.

And, as you well know, he didn't have to go at it full tilt very often at all...3 or 4 times during the whole race. You're making him/them out to be better than they are.

 

[thehog]

Yep, it's a bit harder than for the fella that finishes 2nd or 3rd or 10th. It's called racing. Dear me.

And, as you well know, he didn't have to go at it full tilt very often at all...3 or 4 times during the whole race. You're making him/them out to be better than they are.

I'm sorry that you do believe in miracles.

A 2567km team time trial and no other rider was able to attack? Because simultaneously every other team/rider had a bad race? Seriously?

No wonder Nibili is doing the Giro next year. It's not even worth trying.

 

[sittingbison]

Sorry I can't be bothered finding his direct quote, but let's not forget Basso saying it was impossible to attack when he was at 420w sitting on the back, and Wiggo saying Sky didn't let anyone attack because Rogers was cranking out 450W and it would take 500W to escape.

Then look at both Evans and Nibali (several times) trying to escape. Made to look like rank amateurs.

 

[thehog]

Sorry I can't be bothered finding his direct quote, but let's not forget Basso saying it was impossible to attack when he was at 420w sitting on the back, and Wiggo saying Sky didn't let anyone attack because Rogers was cranking out 450W and it would take 500W to escape.

Then look at both Evans and Nibali (several times) trying to escape. Made to look like rank amateurs.

There you go:

“Look. It’s the same discussion as always, it’s like watching the Tour when Lance [Armstrong] or [Miguel] Indurain raced. You could try to attack, get ahead, but then what are you going to do? Just to have a laugh?” Basso said, sitting on the steps of the team bus.

“If he [Wiggins] goes as they have been, where Richie Porte is pulling and you are on the wheel pushing 420 watts, then explain to me, where are you going to go?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/basso-its-useless-to-try-to-stop-sky_230769

 

[oldcrank]

Maybe you can find a link to Simoni calling Basso "extra-terrestrial"
when he (Basso) won the 2006 Giro by over 9 minutes.

 

[thehog]

Maybe you can find a link to Simoni calling Basso "extra-terrestrial"
when he (Basso) won the 2006 Giro by over 9 minutes.

I'd trust what Tyler Hamilton or Basso has to say about doping. They know what they see because those rode in that era and doped themselves.

Most here think warming down after a stage & "reverse periodisation" makes you ride at 450w+ for 6 hours for 21 days straight.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I'd trust what Tyler Hamilton or Basso has to say about doping. They know what they see because those rode in that era and doped themselves.

Obviously Hamilton has but did Basso ever actually admit to doping?

 

[thehog]

Obviously Hamilton has but did Basso ever actually admit to doping?

Be careful there. You're encroaching on "bitter ex-doper liar" territory.

Doesn't matter if he did or he didn't. He knows what doping does to ones performance.

Its no mistake why he referenced Armstrong/USPS and Indurain/Banesto and comparing them to Sky.

Put simply there was nothing any other team could do.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Be careful there. You're encroaching on "bitter ex-doper liar" territory.

Doesn't matter if he did or he didn't. He knows what doping does to ones performance.

Its no mistake why he referenced Armstrong/USPS and Indurain/Banesto and comparing them to Sky.

Put simply there was nothing any other team could do.

Well, why would Basso be bitter? After all, he has won the Giro clean, right?

Was Indurain's Banesto team really that strong compared to other teams? There was nothing any team could do against Indurain, sure. He smashed the time trials and watched in the mountains.

Really, if you would just show us the proof that Ferrari is working with Wiggins (You are 100% certain remember) then this conversation would be moot.

[cycling is] a lot cleaner... it's still not clean, but much, much better, which is encouraging.

 

[thehog]

Well, why would Basso be bitter? After all, he has won the Giro clean, right?

Was Indurain's Banesto team really that strong compared to other teams? There was nothing any team could do against Indurain, sure. He smashed the time trials and watched in the mountains.

Really, if you would just show us the proof that Ferrari is working with Wiggins (You are 100% certain remember) then this conversation would be moot.

[cycling is] a lot cleaner... it's still not clean, but much, much better, which is encouraging.

Banesto were the pioneers of team doping and riding for one single rider. USPS took it one level further and what I saw with Sky this year was the strongest most dominate team in the history of the Tour.

Never seen anything like it in my entire life. That's 30 years of Tour watching.

I've been calling out the dopers for a while now. And been right every time.

I guess the excuses are much the same through the years. But the new ones I'm hearing now how every other team just happen to have a bad Tour is a new one!

Re: Ferrari. It took 4 years for Walsh to spring Ferrari on Armstrong. Don't worry. Wiggins will announce he's going for the hour record someday not too far from now.

One further point about "cycling being much cleaner". The misinterpretation in today's theory is to say "the speeds are not as fast" as the 90's etc. When in fact what you see today is specific doping and its pinpointed not to reach those levels.

Of course they're not going to be riding as fast as Armstrong and Pantani who rode in the unrestricted days of EPO and when there was no OOC testing.

Does't mean there's not doping.

But I do agree with you. For the younger cyclists their journey is not as troubled as it once was. They do have a choice and can generally keep their contracts.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Banesto were the pioneers of team doping and riding for one single rider. USPS took it one level further and what I saw with Sky this year was the strongest most dominate team in the history of the Tour.

Never seen anything like it in my entire life. That's 30 years of Tour watching.

I've been calling out the dopers for a while now. And been right every time.

I guess the excuses are much the same through the years. But the new ones I'm hearing now how every other team just happen to have a bad Tour is a new one!

Re: Ferrari. It took 4 years for Walsh to spring Ferrari on Armstrong. Don't worry. Wiggins will announce he's going for the hour record someday not too far from now.

One further point about "cycling being much cleaner". The misinterpretation in today's theory is to say "the speeds are not as fast" as the 90's etc. When in fact what you see today is specific doping and its pinpointed not to reach those levels.

Of course they're not going to be riding as fast as Armstrong and Pantani who rode in the unrestricted days of EPO and when there was no OOC testing.

Does't mean there's not doping.

But I do agree with you. For the younger cyclists their journey is not as troubled as it once was. They do have a choice and can generally keep their contracts.

There are things that I don't like about Sky such as still not explaining their doctors (even though Brailsford said he would look into it... still nothing). Yes, the team performance was stellar though I would still say far, far behind the USPS days. I don't think Wiggins climbing was as great as people seem to make out and would be slightly more concerned about the improved TT. But that is harder to quantify since Canc and Martin were not really on form. Next year may start to clear some of these things up. Anyway, this is not really adding anything to this thread or anything new in general so I will bail out on this sub discussion.

 

[armchairclimber]

I'm sorry that you do believe in miracles.

A 2567km team time trial and no other rider was able to attack? Because simultaneously every other team/rider had a bad race? Seriously?

No wonder Nibili is doing the Giro next year. It's not even worth trying.

You're all over the place. Firstly, no I don't believe in miracles and I don't believe I saw one (not in performance terms). I twas very good...but beatable.

WTF you on about at 2567km TTT. Plenty of riders attacked...it was the significant ones (Nibali primarily) who were unable to make the necessary gains. He wasn't good enough. He wasn't far off though. You need to go and watch the race again....30 years of watching the tour hasn't taught you enough.

If Nibali rides the Giro, he'll likely as not be facing Wiggins. I can't see Wiggins motivating himself for the Tour next year...and he knows the competition would be tougher.

 

[doolols]

There are things that I don't like about Sky such as still not explaining their doctors (even though Brailsford said he would look into it... still nothing). Yes, the team performance was stellar though I would still say far, far behind the USPS days. I don't think Wiggins climbing was as great as people seem to make out and would be slightly more concerned about the improved TT. But that is harder to quantify since Canc and Martin were not really on form.

At last, a voice of reason amongst the clamour of hysteria.

If Sky were doping their way to world domination, explain the Olympic RR. The Worlds RR. The Vuelta.

Sky chose riders and prepared for the TdF, with a strategy matched for the parcours and the competition. Won't happen again.

 

[bianchigirl]

Did you see them ride the Olympic rr? I was at the roadside on the box hill loop & they were dominant all right - totally wrong headed tactically but strong? Haven't seen the like since I used to see Armstrong booking it at the tour.

 

[bianchigirl]

Variables much harder to control over a hardish - hard day race & sky's one day tactics are abysmal - very different to them being the strongest team in a race though - losers still dope cf virenque

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Variables much harder to control over a hardish - hard day race & sky's one day tactics are abysmal - very different to them being the strongest team in a race though - losers still dope cf virenque

Pippo Pozzato also says hello!

 

[Benotti69]

The Sky fans still cannot explain why a clean team were able to ride so hard all day for 3 weeks so that those who attacked failed and failed miserably while the others were hanging on for as long as they could.

Sky never once looked uncomfortable in the tour. In a clean race a rider should have at least 1 bad day. No one on Sky seemed to have a bad day.

3 Weeks riding hard and Sky made it look easy.