Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

[86TDFWinner]

I'm confused about when the EPO era really began. Lemond would have you believe that it was the 1991 Tour...

However..there was the famous Gewiss 3 person destruction of the Fleche Wallone in 1994 that was supposed to be the sign that they were on to something new that the rest of the peloton hadn't caught on to yet. Bjarne Riis said he was introduced to EPO in late 92.

Hincapie said Lance was furious about getting destroyed by EPO takers at the 1995 Milan-San Remo.

I know there were the dutch riders in the 80's, but when did it become mainstream so to speak? Was Indurain on EPO in 1991?

Weren't Sean Kelly and Fignon proven(or at least admitted)to have doped in the 80s? And Stephen Roche, Alexi Grewal(Grewal even went on FB or Twitter and apologized for it, but not sure when exactly he started).

I could swear I read in a book that the 7 Eleven team was doping too, not all, but many. Ochowicz was a crooked POS and always seemed to be around/involved with dopers and doping.

Some here have claimed(even though after repeated attempts of asking for credible proof, nothing was ever provided-how am I not surprised), that Hinault doped?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Lance gave a presentation on this at a sports governing class at Colorado University back in 2016. FWIW, he says he started EPO in the "late spring of 95." He explains that he won the WC in 93 "EPO-free," got his "ass-kicked" by EPO users in 94, and made the decision to go "high-octane" in 95 (@ 3:00 in). Interesting presentation, but how much is true I have no idea (it's LA talking, bear in mind).

View: https://youtu.be/fshoz6cnKPY


I don't know much about the EPO-cycling connection in the early 90s, but I can tell you that EPO was verified to have been used at both the Calgary & Seoul Olympics in 1988 (the clinicals started in 86 and in 1987 the drug was approved for medical use in Europe).

Betsy Andreu claims Wonderboy started doping in the mid 90s(around 93 she said IIRC) and I believe her. NOTHING out of Wonderboys mouth should be taken as even remotely accurate or truthful, considering his history of difficulty telling the truth.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Weren't Sean Kelly and Fignon proven(or at least admitted)to have doped in the 80s? And Stephen Roche, Alexi Grewal(Grewal even went on FB or Twitter and apologized for it, but not sure when exactly he started).

You are conflating doping in general and doping specifically with EPO. We all know doping existed before EPO. If you have any evidence that Kelly, Fignon, Roche, and Grewal were doping with EPO in the 1980s, let's see it. Otherwise, could you please stick to the topic, which is the timing of EPO in the early 90s, and save the other well worn stuff for more appropriate threads. TIA.

I could swear I read in a book that the 7 Eleven team was doping too, not all, but many.

It it well known that 7-Eleven doped before EPO became part of their programme. It's in several of David Walsh and Pierre Ballester's books. In the official 7-Eleven "biography" the story of the blood doping at the LA Games is mentioned briefly. None of this speaks to the subject of the timing of EPO in the early 90s, though.

Some here have claimed(even though after repeated attempts of asking for credible proof, nothing was ever provided-how am I not surprised), that Hinault doped?

I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim that Hinault used EPO. It would be a fairly ridiculous claim if it were made, I think, given when he retired. It has been suggested that he banged in blood bags, and given his association with Bellocq and comments he made in a major interview in the 1990s one shouldn't scoff at such suggestions. As for more 'ordinary' doping - hormones, amphetamines etc - I struggle to think of anyone who thinks Hinault raced clean, especially when given the two incidents where he refused to subject himself to testing.

Betsy Andreu claims Wonderboy started doping in the mid 90s(around 93 she said IIRC) and I believe her.

Again, you are making the basic error of conflating doping in general and doping specifically with EPO. No one believes LA was clean before he started on EPO. His own date for starting on EPO seems reasonable, given we have a degree of corroboration from other sources.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Was linked to this couple year old video of John Tomac and turns out among many topics, he has a few anecdotes about drugs in cycling and EPO in particular. Anyway, mentions his view on when he felt EPO was already influencing road racing he was involved in. Those specific comments are around the 1:50 mark

Essentially, Tomac is saying something that's been said by many other sources at this stage, that EPO was in use as early as 89-90. It wasn't in use by everyone, that seems clear at this stage from what we know, but Tomac is suggesting there was a first wave visible in 89-90.

To play devil's avocet on this, let's remember that this sits neatly with Tomac's own entry to the pro (road) peloton. Many riders struggle in their first season with the speed of the pro peloton. Some see that as being down to needing to step up, some think they were already on the pedestal and so ascribe other causes to the change in speed. In one of the 1990 / 1991 cycling year books LeMond provided an intro to, he notes a change in race speeds in 1990 or so, citing Milan-Sanremo as an example, but he ascribes that to changes in the FICP points ranking, which made riders more mercenary. You also have at this same time cycling's financial big bang, more money coming in from more sponsors who demanded more results. So the change in speed in 89/90, there are several reasons for it, not just that EPO was in use in parts of the peloton in 89/90.

 

[Aragon]

Regarding the availability of rHuEPO in the early 1990s, here is a well-known quotation from the famous NYT-article Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths by Lawrence M. Fisher (May 19, 1991):

In the United States, Amgen limits distribution of the drug to kidney dialysis treatment centers. Sports physicians say the drug is not readily obtainable here but add that it not hard to get in Mexico or Europe.

Apparently some of this "not readily obtainable" dialysis treatment center rHuEPO found its way into the Mexican black market quite early on, as the Mexican newspaper "El Informador" had the following "for sale" item available in May 1990, almost exactly thirty years ago which causes one to wonder whether the RBC-hormone indeed was available also for the US sports circles in the States in 1990 if not earlier:

 

[Cookster15]

I'm not confused when the EPO era really began in professional cycling - I agree with Lemond. based upon performances I think it is clear it was 1991. 1990 hunting accident affected Lemond could still win the TdF. Not so 1991. But also I think there was experimentation going on until maybe 1993. By 1994 EPO's use in the peloton was perfected by the teams and doctors.

The 1993 TdF stage 10 over the Galibier won by Rominger outsprinting Indurain at Serre Chevalier was instructive. Bugno and Fignon lost 7'42", Chiappucci lost 8'49". These massive time losses didn't happen because they had EPO worked out.

 

[F_Cance]

Why do people think that Lemond was clean? Only because he said so? Vanmol was his doctor.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I'm not confused when the EPO era really began in professional cycling - I agree with Lemond. based upon performances I think it is clear it was 1991. 1990 hunting accident affected Lemond could still win the TdF. Not so 1991. But also I think there was experimentation going on until maybe 1993. By 1994 EPO's use in the peloton was perfected by the teams and doctors.

The 1993 TdF stage 10 over the Galibier won by Rominger outsprinting Indurain at Serre Chevalier was instructive. Bugno and Fignon lost 7'42", Chiappucci lost 8'49". These massive time losses didn't happen because they had EPO worked out.

For me 1990 is the cut-off point, the sudden rise of Bugno and Chiappucci as stage racers at their respective age, if you consider how their career went afterwards they should be seen as "pioneers".

 

[fmk_RoI]

For me 1990 is the cut-off point, the sudden rise of Bugno and Chiappucci as stage racers at their respective age, if you consider how their career went afterwards they should be seen as "pioneers".

In 1990 Chiappucci was 27. Bugno was 26. There is nothing odd about their ages.

Does anything in their performances in 1990 scream EPO? Nothing for Chiappucci. Whispers it loudly, maybe, but that whisper could just as easily be a good bag of blood. For Bugno? Debatable. It was a hell of a Giro win, but that's the Giro for you. And, again, you could just as easily say a good supply of blood bags as you could a flask filled with EPO.

Chiappucci's Sestrières ride further questions what he was really on in 1990. That 1992 Tour is seen within the pro peloton as a key moment. It wasn't the first time EPO was used but was high on the list for the effective use of EPO, with both Chiapucci in Sestrières and Indurain in Luxembourg.

People were, without doubt, using EPO in 1990. People were using EPO in 1989 too. Possibly even in 1988 given what was written about its use during the Olympics that year.

 

[Mayomaniac]

In 1990 Chiappucci was 27. Bugno was 26. There is nothing odd about their ages.

Does anything in their performances in 1990 scream EPO? Nothing for Chiappucci. Whispers it loudly, maybe, but that whisper could just as easily be a good bag of blood. For Bugno? Debatable. It was a hell of a Giro win, but that's the Giro for you. And, again, you could just as easily say a good supply of blood bags as you could a flask filled with EPO.

Chiappucci's Sestrières ride further questions what he was really on in 1990. That 1992 Tour is seen within the pro peloton as a key moment. It wasn't the first time EPO was used but was high on the list for the effective use of EPO, with both Chiapucci in Sestrières and Indurain in Luxembourg.

People were, without doubt, using EPO in 1990. People were using EPO in 1989 too. Possibly even in 1988 given what was written about its use during the Olympics that year.

I think both of them were trying it already in 1990 and back then it was a lot more unusal to suddenly emerge as a gc rider at that age, Claudio had already turned pro in 1985, just like Bugno.
Back then top talents usually emerged a lot earlier, their sudden rise to the top is much more in line with what happened durning the 90ies.
Italy was on the cutting edge of blood doping back then, just think about Moser's (at the time legal) transfusions or what the whole XC skiing generation around De Zolt did. Moser was also the bike sponsor of Bugno's team, so a connection with Conconi and Ferrari before 1993 seems really plausible.
Dr. Giovanni Grazzi was also working at the university of Ferrara with Concioni, and the team Doctor of Chiappucchi's team (Carrera) from 1885 until 1995, so they were probably already experimenting with all kinds of transfusions before the use of EPO got perfected.
Of course it's just me speculating about it, but I've always seen the sudden rise of those 2 as one of the first examples of teams and doctors finding out how to properly use it, durning the next few years people improved and perfected the whole thing.

 

[del1962]

Wrong thread -oops

 

[Pantani_lives]

People seem to forget two things about the Tour 1990. Chiappucci got ten minutes for free on the flat. There was nothing unusual about his climbing, knowing that he already did well in climbing classics and one week races. Indurain was already better than Lemond in some of the stages, but he had to sacrifice himself for Delgado. More remarkable were the time trials of PDM, especially Alcala.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Italy was on the cutting edge of blood doping back then, just think about Moser's (at the time legal) transfusions

Did you read what I wrote about blood transfusions or do you just not give a fiddler's?

If you can find a way to show me the difference between blood bags in 1990 and EPO, I'm all ears. I accept that 1992 was definitely EPO, was too much for blood bags, but what in 1990 couldn't have been achieved with a transfusion or two?

 

[fmk_RoI]

More remarkable were the time trials of PDM, especially Alcala.

And we have proof that PDM were banging in blood bags two Tours before that.

The funny thing I find with PDM is that even though they were subsumed by Festina, Festina didn't get the hang of EPO until what, 1993, 1994?

(Cue cries of "1991! 1991! 1991!" - if you're going to do that, bring your proof. TIA.)

People seem to forget two things about the Tour 1990. Chiappucci got ten minutes for free on the flat. There was nothing unusual about his climbing, knowing that he already did well in climbing classics and one week races.

And yet even with a ten minute head start and EPO Chiappucci blew it. Makes you wonder what weak ass EPO he must have been buying...or if he was buying any EPO at all.

 

[Sciatic]

Why do people think that Lemond was clean? Only because he said so? Vanmol was his doctor.

This thread isn’t about who was clean or not; it’s about who might have been using EPO (as opposed to blood bags and other gear) and when. Lemond had reached the pinnacle of the sport already in 85-86, so whatever got him there, we know it wasn’t EPO.

 

[Cannavaro]

And yet even with a ten minute head start and EPO Chiappucci blew it.

I would not read to much into this. Chiappucci lost 5 minutes in a medium mountain stage to Saint Etienne and another two and a half minutes in a suicidal attack on the last mountain stage. Take his self destructive tactics away and he would have won this Tour comfortably.

 

[red_flanders]

For me 1990 is the cut-off point, the sudden rise of Bugno and Chiappucci as stage racers at their respective age, if you consider how their career went afterwards they should be seen as "pioneers".

Bingo. The two key examples. Don’t know when they started but 1990 seems the best guess at when major wins started falling to chumps who didn’t deserve them.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Bingo. The two key examples. Don’t know when they started but 1990 seems the best guess at when major wins started falling to chumps who didn’t deserve them.

Bugno was not a chump, he was agood one day racer, but not a gt rider. The same could be said about Rominger, who was already a great one day racer and a stage hunter in the late 80ies.
The reason why I think that experimenting with EPO was the reason for the rise of Bugno and Chiappucchi is the fact that the Italian doctors had already mastered the use of transfusions in the mid to late 80ies after the Moser hour record and the rise of the XC skiing generation of De Zolt and yet the late 80ies were on of the weakest eras when it comes to Italian gc riders. I don't think that the Italians suddenly had mastered the art of using blood bags in stage races in 1990, when they already had a lot of experience with that before it. Did the logistics for using blood bags suddenly improve in 1990 or did the infamous doctors start to use EPO with the first riders who were willing to try new stuff.

 

[fmk_RoI]

The reason why I think that experimenting with EPO was the reason for the rise of Bugno and Chiappucchi is the fact that the Italian doctors had already mastered the use of transfusions in the mid to late 80ies after the Moser hour record and the rise of the XC skiing generation of De Zolt and yet the late 80ies were on of the weakest eras when it comes to Italian gc riders.

One more time: what in the 1990 performances could not have been blood bags? You admit the expertise was there, that they had the thick end of a decade's experience.

There is absolutely nothing in Chiappucci's performance that says EPO.

Bugno? He went into the Giro with two duff seasons behind him as a result of a crash and weak opposition. Don't look just to the logistics of the doping, look at who it's used against as well. As happens all to often around here you look at a complex outcome and see just a single variable as explaining it when in reality multiple factors are always at play.

What happened to EPO if it did turn Bugno and Chiappucci into champions in 1990 if its effects didn't really materialise - especially in Chiapucci's case - for two more years?

And don't the epo.wks and delab.wdb files suggest to you that Conconi and co were slower to embrace EPO than many want to believe they were?

 

[hrotha]

It's not a binary thing. You can start doing EPO in 1990, get a small boost, improve your program as your doctor learns more about the effective use of EPO and get a massive boost by 1992. Granted, the 1990 small boost would be compatible with other methods, but this trajectory is also perfectly compatible with EPO.

 

[fmk_RoI]

You can start doing EPO in 1990, get a small boost,

But the argument here is that the alleged 1990 boost for Bugno and Chiappucci was mahoosive, not small.

 

[red_flanders]

Bugno was not a chump, he was agood one day racer, but not a gt rider.

It’s fair, he was a good rider, but the guy had a ridiculous transformation in 90. He had no business performing like he did in GTs, and his one day performances took a huge leap as well. For me he is one of the huge early frauds and bellwethers of the EPO era. I’ll call him a chump anyway.

 

[Aragon]

One item speaking against the 1988-1991 as the introduction of rHuEPO in the pro cycling is that it is difficult to name a single cyclist who used known by confession or by other reliable means such as documentation.

If one can name cyclists who used rHuEPO in 1992 or earlier, I'd be interested to know.

I think the final manuscript of the Conconi-Grazzi et material was sent for publication in 1992, and there were apparently some of their clients taking the substance in 92 or even in 91, but confessions even regarding 1992 are virtually nonexistent whereas there is relatively plenty of material about the years 1993-94, and my recollection is that based on the confessions, even some former PDM riders at Festina seemed to have started to take the drug only the first time in 1993-94 regardless of what Wim Sanders allegedly did around 1990-91. (e.g. Gert Jakobs)

 

[Aragon]

About the Ferrara-documents, it is somewhat confusing, because:

- Sandro Donati quotes in his book Lo Sport Del Doping from the court documents that Conconi experimented himself with rHuEPO in 1991, and the Casoni et al - study with (allegedly) 20 subjects treated with the hormone was conducted likely in 1992 because the final draft was actually "Accepted after revision: March 19, 1993" and the rHuEPO treatment had lasted for 45 days + other analysis etc.

- The standard Wikipedia-narrative is still that the experiments with 23 pro athletes took place only from 1993 onwards.

 

[fmk_RoI]

About the Ferrara-documents, it is somewhat confusing, because:

- Sandro Donati quotes in his book Lo Sport Del Doping from the court documents that Conconi experimented himself with rHuEPO in 1991, and the Casoni et al - study with (allegedly) 20 subjects treated with the hormone was conducted likely in 1992 because the final draft was actually "Accepted after revision: March 19, 1993" and the rHuEPO treatment had lasted for 45 days + other analysis etc.

- The standard Wikipedia-narrative is still that the experiments with 23 pro athletes took place only from 1993 onwards.

I don't know why but I've always understood the 20+ subjects was 1992. This will have probably come about through reporting relating to Roche. Also, I think Rendell's Pantani book - one of the few English language books to actually look at those files - clearly places them in 1992 and onwards.