Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

[pmcg76]

I do really want to park this convo for now, I think we've made our points and we're not going to get much further without fresh data. However, I'd be gratfeul if you'd indulge me with this and talk about Giovanetti, the odd one out in the 1990 Italian renaissance given he rode for a Spanish team. Over on another thread you said this about his Vuelta victory:Fortunately, among the few cycling books that made the house move with me before lockdown was the Fallon/Bell Vuelta book. Their version of the story of that year's race is consistent with what you said. They say there was little foreign competiton and the Spanish teams managed to screw it up by keeping their aces and kings in reserve and just playing their jacks, even as the race slipped away from them. They played a cautious game and lost.

Given that he is the odd one out and that you suggest his performance can be rationalised and doesn't need EPO - and that he never really added to that one magical spring - would you be happy with removing Seur from our little list of possible pioneering teams should we return to it in the future if new info arises?

I think if you took the Vuelta as a single point, then yes EPO may not have been a factor. But then when he backs that up with 3rd at the Giro a fews later, his best result at the Giro to that point, it looks a little more suspicious and with all the other Italian results. But I am not wedged to the view he was definitely on EPO, though he does have better GT results post 1990 than pre 1990.

If he were on EPO, then to me, it would have been someone outside the team anyways. Maybe he took EPO in Italy before the Vuelta, didn't get a recharge during the race, but managed to hang on and then re-upped for the Giro. To me, Giovanetti and Ballerini are a little less suspicious than the other three from that year.

Bugno and Chiappucci we covered.

Argentin coming back to form whilst hitting up with Ferrari is highly suspect. He had been previously considered a canny rider, a Valverde type rider using his sprint and tactical nous, but from 1990 on he was more aggressive, his win at Fleche Wallone 91 was a 70k solo and his stage wins at the Tour were long solo victories. Even his win at Flanders, he bridged to the winning group solo and then away went with Dhaenans 30km from the finish to contest the win. He destroyed everyone on the Poggio in 92, but was outfoxed by Kelly.

 

[Parker]

I think there are a few key moments that can attributed to EPO, but maybe incorrectly.

1. Greg LeMond had an 'iron shot' at the 1989 Giro
2. Gianni Bugno dominates the 1990 Giro
3. Chiappucci rides to Sestrieres in 1992
4. Bjarne Riis comes 5th at the Tour 1993
5. Gewiss Balllan at 1994 Fleche Wallonne
6. Laurent Jalabert becomes world no.1

 

[pmcg76]

I think there are a few key moments that can attributed to EPO, but maybe incorrectly.

1. Greg LeMond had an 'iron shot' at the 1989 Giro
2. Gianni Bugno dominates the 1990 Giro
3. Chiappucci rides to Sestrieres in 1992
4. Bjarne Riis comes 5th at the Tour 1993
5. Gewiss Balllan at 1994 Fleche Wallonne
6. Laurent Jalabert becomes world no.1

Those might be some of the more famous ones, but the likes of Gewiss & Jalabert are quite far into the EPO era. There were loads of performaces, Mauri & Chioccioli at the 91 Vuelta & Giro respectively. Argentin with a 70km solo to win Fleche Wallone the same year. Indurains Luxembourg TT 92, Ariostea in general, the rise of Piotr Ugrumov, Fondriest's amazing 93 season. The list could go on and on. It became the era of riders popping up from nowhere to become champions. Ironic that in modern cycling the transformation of Froome outdoes them all.

Interesting that you believe EPO transformed guys into better riders than they had ever been, except LeMond who was a poorer version of his previous best.

 

[pmcg76]

Back when Cycle Sport magazine first was published in 93, they did a team profile each month that included the list of team staff like soigneurs, mechanics, doctors etc. Many will be known, some less so.

Wordperfect: Peter Verstappen/Ignace Van Meerwijk
ONCE: Nicolas Terrados/Jose Aramendi
Banesto:Sabino Padilla
Gatorade: Fabio Bartalucci/Gugielmo Pitrolo/Pietro Ronchi/Vittoro Vescovi
CLAS: Benjamin Gonzalez/Vicente Gonzalez
Mecair: Walter Polini
Telekom: Andreas Schmidt/Georg Huber/Josef Keul
TVM: Andrei Mihailov
Motorola: Max Testa

For other teams, we are heading into 1994. To be noted that Conconi or Frerrari were not noted as official team doctors, but were probably looking after more riders than anyone else. This caused some controversey at Mecair when their official doctor Polini raised questions about the role of Ferrari who was looking after Argentin, Ugrumov, Berzin, Bobrik, Volpi. This was because Volpi tested positive after wining the Leeds Classic, the British round of the World Cup. Argentin declared he wouldn't go to Polini even if he had a cold. Ferrari was official teamn doctor in 94, before being sacked for his infamous EPO v Orange Juice remarks.

Also in 1989 Daniel Tarsi was doctor for Pepsi-Cola and Carlo Guardascione was doctor for Polli Mobiexport, two teams co-sponsored by Ivano Fanini. In 1990 Franco Gini who was boss at Pepsi Cola set up the Gis team that would evolve into first Mercatone Uno 92-94 and then Saeco thereafter, Tarsi was doctor for this team in 1990-92 but was then at ZG Mobili, by 94 Guardascione was doctor at Mercatone Uno.

 

[pmcg76]

So as a little survey I conducted on Italian performances in major Classics. This included all individual World Cup Races, Fleche Wallone & Ghent Wevelgem.
So 89 includes 13 races and thereafter 12 due to demise of Montreal GP.

89
Victories: 0
Podiums: 2
Top 10s:11

93
Victories: 6
Podiums: 19
Top 10s: 51

95
Victories: 4
Podiums: 19
Top 10s: 63

The drastic change in numbers is obvious, by 93 Italian riders were filling over 50% of Podium places and in 95 over 50% of Top 10 finishers as well. That doesn't even include foreign riders on Italian teams like Museeuw, Sorensen, Richard, Berzin, Bobrik, Gianetti which pushes those figures even higher. Was cycling ever so lopsided to one nation?

 

[Aragon]

This Indurain-related Wikipedia paragraph is actually very interesting:

I'd be interested if anyone has the original source for this data and whether this information is accurate and conducted in the same series of tests for two reasons:

1) If it is accurate, it shows an enormous aerobic capacity, because 88 ml/kg/min is considered a very rare figure for someone with a body mass of 80 kg, because absolute Vo2max doesn't tend to scale linearly but allometrically with mass exponent of c:a 2/3. Therefore this relative figure is as unique as a figure of 97 ml/kg/min for a 60 kg cyclist.

2) The figure is very likely an un-blood doped one because if the 50 l/min output is accurate, one can calculate that each liter of his blood "left" only some 140 millilitres of oxygen on average (0.140 x 50 = 7 litres) to his muscles and therefore his resting Hb concentration (Hct) was around 12.5-13.0 g/dl (37-40 %).

Here is the Vo2Max of 88 ml/min/kg for a 80 kg guy in visual form vs. world class XC-skiers of the 1970s and 1980s showing how relative Vo2max tends to fall with body size (as interesting anecdotes, the absolute left orange circle is the former relative WR of 94 ml/min/kg of Sven-Åke Lundbäck, the uttermost right orange circle of 77 the current absolute WR of Juha Mieto, 7.4 l/min):

If it ever turns out that Indurain's figure is accurate and was measured not under rHuEPO (as the alleged cardiac output indicates), it is not unreasonable to think that "Big Mig" rode clean.

 

[Nomad]

Here is the Vo2Max of 88 ml/min/kg for a 80 kg guy in visual form vs. world class XC-skiers of the 1970s and 1980s showing how relative Vo2max tends to fall with body size (as interesting anecdotes, the absolute left orange circle is the former relative WR of 94 ml/min/kg of Sven-Åke Lundbäck, the uttermost right orange circle of 77 the current absolute WR of Juha Mieto, 7.4 l/min):

If it ever turns out that Indurain's figure is accurate and was measured not under rHuEPO (as the alleged cardiac output indicates), it is not unreasonable to think that "Big Mig" rode clean.

Yeah...I've heard there are some who believe that "Big Mig" won those 5 Tours clean and was one of the most genetic freaks in the history of the sport. However, I'm skeptical: 5 consecutive Tours at the start of the full-throttle EPO era where riders could dope with impunity. If he was clean, then that means the first Tour champion to have used EPO is Riis - and that's only because he told us! Lol.

It's my understanding that Dr. Concini had worked with Banesto in the 1990's. I wonder if he was he affiliated with the team as early as 91? (Indurain's first Tour win).

Also, a former rider with Banesto, Thomas Davy, testified at a hearing in 2000 that systematic doping was present at Banesto when he rode with the team from 95 -96 (which would include Indurain's last Tour win):

Banesto used a 'system of doping' | The Guardian | guardian.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

I'm sure many here have already seen this article:

Report: Indurain and Banesto were Conconi clients | Cyclingnews.com

Donati claims team paid doctor "high amounts"

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Aragon]

I don't "believe" in anything relating to Indurain, just stated an observation not evident to everyone about Indurain's Vo2Max.

And Indurain's collaboration with Dr. Conconi goes back to 1987, there is another layer of suspicion.

 

[Sandthemall]

In early 1990 Dutch riders were dying in their sleep. This is how we know when EPO hit cycling. ABC news covered this story during the 1990 tour. Teams were dosing too high, blood would thicken and riders died of hear attacks while they slept.

Initially teams didn’t know how to use EPO. Under EPO, you would still feel tired just as you always did. The trick was to push on the accelerator even harder. Tyler Hamilton talks about this in the book ‘The Secret Race’.

All the talk about Armstrong’s VO2 max is clouded by lots of claims of having an 95, 85 etc.. I think it’s more likely what his doctor mistakenly blurted out during a press conference: 78. His early results bear this out.

A bona-fide Tour de France champ looks like a champ at his first tour...whether he wins or not. Armstrong never looked like a threat in his first attempts…he couldn’t even finish in his first attempt…then starts winning at 28 years of age. Now 28 is a peak age in the tour. More riders win at that age than any other. But people who win their first tour at 28, don’t usually win much more because…well…it is a peak age. That’s
why multiple tour winners usually start winning much earlier. Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault all won in their first attempt. And they struggled…I mean struggled to win that 5th tour.

That Armstrong ‘won‘ 7…after the age of 28 is stupid silly. And with a meagerly (only in cycling) 78 VO2 max.

It’s true Indurain had great physical stats as mentioned. He could have pulled off a tour or two without EPO in a clean field. This obviously can’t be proven. But he wasn’t a 5 in a row winner. Study his performance at the 1990 tour. He did have the form to contend but had to serve Delgado in that tour. But he didn’t look like the guy he was in 1991. Even Chiappucci dropped Lemond in 1991. Obviously Lemond was not on EPO.

The fact that Lemond won the 1990 tour without a single stage win and his frustration in the time trials supports the idea that he didn’t use EPO. His VO2 max of 93 with an EPO boost should look ‘alien good’ but Lemond struggles through the EPO period.

Let’s talk about Fignon. He is fascinating! Anyone here read his book? Highly recommend it. Let‘s look at why Fignon was great. He was hired as a support rider for Lemond and Hinault. He was a super-domestique that Renault used on hilly stage races. Fignon’s early Renault team mates often said he was mostly unspectacular except when the road went up. He was a naturally strong climber it turns out.

I’m guessing Cyrill Guimard didn’t initially think Fignon was special because we don’t hear of him until his 1983 Tour de France win. He won on his first attempt. But Lemond was too young and precious to enter at 22 years of age and Hinault was injured. Fignon was also 22 but he was expendable. Totally unspectacular first win. He inherited the Jersey after Pascal Simon abandoned.

But, hey now, he did win on his first attempt…spectacular or not. That’s a bona-fide tour champ.

We don’t know Fignon’s VO2 max. I suspect it’s decent but not good enough for Guimard to place him at the top of his roster.

So how did Fignon go toe-to-toe with Lemond in 1989? How did he beat Lemond and Hinault in the 1984 tour by more than 10 minutes?

Lemond gives a clue to this answer in his post 1989 tour comments. It turns out that Fignon, who is about the same height as Lemond and Hinault, rides the same size bike as them…uses 44cm wide handlebars…long crankarms…etc, etc….is about 10 lbs lighter in weight.

Ever look at Fignon’s climbing bike in the 1989 tour? It’s all steel (Reynolds 753), Campy Delta brakes…and CLINCHERS. Yes Fignon rode clinchers and a steel bike and left Greg for dead on L’Alp d’ Huez. Fignon did not need a carbon bike. Even with a steel bike, he was carrying a few good pounds less up every mountain. That adds up.

If Fignon had the sense to wear his aero helmet on the last day (You’ll find pictures on the internet of Guimard holding his helmet as Fignon refused to wear it that day) he may have won the 1989 tour by 8 seconds instead of losing it by the same margin.

Winning a tour requires you to recover very well day in-day out. I’m guessing Fignon, although statistically not as desirable as Lemond or Hinault, could outclimb them when en-form and could recover well enough and possibly better than them. Fignon would brag about his ability to tune out and sleep like a baby…he also loved a brutal course...’The harder it is, the better for me…’.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In 1991 Indurain, Bugno and LeBlanc crushed Alpe d'Huez record. Their time (around 40'30'') was still not at the level of alien 1994-1997 rides but a time gap of 1'15''-1'40'' over the best performers of 80s was significant. EPO era probably started in early 90s but peaked around the middle of them.

 

[gillan1969]

I think there are a few key moments that can attributed to EPO, but maybe incorrectly.

1. Greg LeMond had an 'iron shot' at the 1989 Giro
2. Gianni Bugno dominates the 1990 Giro
3. Chiappucci rides to Sestrieres in 1992
4. Bjarne Riis comes 5th at the Tour 1993
5. Gewiss Balllan at 1994 Fleche Wallonne
6. Laurent Jalabert becomes world no.1

lols Lemond...yup regains something like his form of 3 years earlier where we know there was no epo and then

I think there are a few key moments that can attributed to EPO, but maybe incorrectly.

1. Greg LeMond had an 'iron shot' at the 1989 Giro
2. Gianni Bugno dominates the 1990 Giro
3. Chiappucci rides to Sestrieres in 1992
4. Bjarne Riis comes 5th at the Tour 1993
5. Gewiss Balllan at 1994 Fleche Wallonne
6. Laurent Jalabert becomes world no.1

lemond....lols

 

[Aragon]

There is a lot of confusion about that book by Mart Smeets caused by nobody actually reading it and referring to secondary sources about its alleged content. One interesting item is that the official "About Gert"- page of Gert Jakobs has a short biography about him where it also states that he told Mart Smeets having taken EPO in 1989 when it wasn't banned:

https://www.gertjakobs.nl/over-gert/

On one hand this is his official webpage and the information should be 100 % accurate, but on the other hand the material is most likely a copy-paste job from his old Wikipedia page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707171648/https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Jakobs

Because this is the first confession about rHuEPO use I am aware of from the 1980's, it is strange that all the handful of other sources claim he started to use rHuEPO in 1993 while in the Festina team, so the timeline is totally inconsistent. Out of curiosity I even asked his agent/webmaster about the inconsistency issue two years ago and she forwarded the problem to Mr. Jakobs.

No idea how she forwarded the question/issue, but the answer was that he isn't interested in addressing the matter at all because he reckons it "irrelevant".

After seeing the book "Het Laatste Geel" by Mart Smeets being quoted for the last 14 years with a wide range of intrepretations, I decided to get a copy into my hands (via interlibrary loan) and quote in the future the revelant parts in verbatim, something that should've been done the moment the book was published instead of using second hand sources.

I have now a copy, and I'll write a review here in a week or two about what the 1989 TDF Dutch cyclists told about their knowledge of EPO, their own EPO use and about the shady characters such as Eufemiano Fuentes, Erik Rijkaert et al.

 

[Aragon]

I'll start with Steven Rooks (p.211), the most famous EPO-confesser from Smeets's book. Even when many books, YouTube videos and articles (not the news section of CN!) claim that Rooks admitted having been an EPO-doper at the 1989 TDF, he apparently had heard only vaguely about EPO at that time, but only succumbed to use it in 1994.

(I'll keep the quotation in the original Dutch to keep the authenticity. It is easy for everyone to copy-paste the paragraph into google.translate after which it is readable enough in English. If a native Dutch speaker DM's me with a corrected English translation, I'll be more than happy to add them as a separate paragraph.

Smeets: "Wist jij al van het bestaan van epo in 1989?"
Rooks: "Ja, ik wist er toen al van. Het begon net te komen, denk ik. Eerst had ik het van horen zeggen, want die verhalen gingen snel. Ik ben er in die Tour niet mee aan de slag gegaan."
Smeets: "Later wel?"
Rooks: "Ja, ik heb epo gebruikt. Dat moest wel als je mee wilde in de top van het klassement. Je kon niet anders, zo durf ik het ook wel te stellen. Als je het niet deed, werd je zoek gereden. En weet je, het was toen niet verboden. Je moest alleen niet boven de vijftig komen. Nou had ik van mezelf al 48 als top, dus kon ik niet veel dien. Maar ik zal het niet ontkennen, ik heb het gebruikt."
Smeets: "Weet je nog op welk moment je besloot om het ook te gaan gebruiken?
Rooks: "Dat was toen mannen als Argentin, Furlan, Berzin en al die renners van die Gewissploeg van ons wegreden alsof we er niet stonden. Toen hadden we in feite geen keuze meer, we mosten wel".

 

[fmk_RoI]

En weet je, het was toen niet verboden. Je moest alleen niet boven de vijftig komen.

So he says he started around the time of Gewiss, that's 1994, and that EPO wasn't illegal, you just had to stay under 50%.

The 50% rule wasn't introduced until 1997.

Off the top of my head it as 90 or 91 when the IOC banned EPO and the UCI followed a year later.

So it was banned and even with a normal H level of 48% he would have been able to gain some advantage pushing himself into the mid to high 50s.

 

[Aragon]

So he says he started around the time of Gewiss, that's 1994, and that EPO wasn't illegal, you just had to stay under 50%.

The 50% rule wasn't introduced until 1997.

Off the top of my head it as 90 or 91 when the IOC banned EPO and the UCI followed a year later.

So it was banned and even with a normal H level of 48% he would have been able to gain some advantage pushing himself into the mid to high 50s.

You are right that the train of thought isn't always the most coherent, logical (and honest?) in everything the Dutch cyclists say when they have likely a shortage of time to think an answer in the course of the interview. Rooks (who gave likely no blood samples in any doping control ever) might've referred to a voluntary Hct rule inside his team, e.g. Festina had one of 55 % in the mid-1990s.

In Rooks's defence, EPO was technically banned, but I think that even Christophe Bassons describes EPO as "not banned" in his memoirs when writing about the subject years later, so "not banned" in reality it was vs. after the EPO test.

 

[Monte Serra]

I'll start with Steven Rooks (p.211), the most famous EPO-confesser from Smeets's book. Even when many books, YouTube videos and articles (not the news section of CN!) claim that Rooks admitted having been an EPO-doper at the 1989 TDF, he apparently had heard only vaguely about EPO at that time, but only succumbed to use it in 1994.

(I'll keep the quotation in the original Dutch to keep the authenticity. It is easy for everyone to copy-paste the paragraph into google.translate after which it is readable enough in English. If a native Dutch speaker DM's me with a corrected English translation, I'll be more than happy to add them as a separate paragraph.

Smeets: "Did you already know about the existence of EPO in 1989?"
Rooks: "Yes, I already knew about it then. It was just arriving on the scene, I think. At first I just heard reports, because those stories went fast. I didnt use it in that Tour."
Smeets: "But later on?"
Rooks: "Yes, I used epo. You had to, if you wanted to be competitive in GC. There was no other option I dare to say it. If you didn't use it, you were dropped. And you know, it wasn't forbidden then. You just should not go over 50. Now my natural level was already as high as 48, so I couldn't take much. But I won't deny it, I used it."
Smeets: "Do you remember when you decided to start using it?
Rooks: "That was when men like Argentin, Furlan, Berzin and all those riders of the Gewiss team rode away from us as if we weren't there. Then we actually had no choice, we had to."

 

[Aragon]

Gert Jakobs is an interesting case. The "About Gert"-section of his own website claims that he admitted having used EPO in 1989 in the book "Het Laatste Geel" discussed here. But he makes no such a chronology in his later autobiography, and it is difficult to claim that he admits having used EPO in 1989 either in Mart Smeets's book (pp. 92-93):

SMEETS: "Wist je in 1989 al van het bestaan van epo ?"
JAKOBS: "Ik denk het wel. Zo rond die tijd begon het te komen toch? Als je goed keek enluisterde dan wist je dat er iets aan de hand was".
SMEETS: "Heb jij het gebruikt?"
JAKOBS: "Ik lieg daar niet over. Ja, ik heb epo gebruikt. Weet je wie daarna mijn arts werd? Eric Rijkaert, die Belg. Nou, die had het bijna uitgevonden, dat wist iedereen. Ik kreeg het van hem en ik heb het in die jaren gebruikt. Het was niet verboden en je moest zorgen dat je waarde niet boven de vijftig uitkwam. Ik heb het gedaan om makkelijker te kunnen overleven, want ik zou toch nooit een klassemetsrenner worden, maar ik kon wel op een betere manier de Tour uitrijden."
SMEETS: "Je hebt er geen spijt van?"
JAKOBS: "Nee, ik deed het omdat het niet verboden was. Ik paste me aan aan de anderen die het ook deden. In de loop der jaren heb ik heel wat journalistne bij me gehad wilden weten of Breukink en Van Poppel ook aan de epo hadden gezeten. Ik heb tijd gezegd: ' Ga ze dat zelf vragen'. Want ik vond het laf dat via mij te doen. Ik kan voor mezelf antwoorden en dat heb ik nu ook bij jou gedaan. Ja, ik heb het genomen. En ik spreek uitsluitend voor mezelf en niet voor anderen. Zoals het hoort."

Mathieu Hermans is the third Dutch cyclists of the 1989 TDF cyclists, who admitted having used EPO during his career in the book. The allegation that he took the substance in 1989 is partly based on his admission that Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes was his team doctor at that time. But if we read what he actually told Mart Smeets (pp. 85-86), his timeline about his own (implicit) EPO use is really vague and he seems to consider Fuentes a man of honour, what is not the impression one gets from the few words by him quoted in the media from the book. Overall it is interesting if Hermans truly has reliable information about EPO use inside the peloton (by "Spaniards") way back in 1989 even if he didn't use it by himself that early on.

SMEETS: "Wat wist jij in 1989 over epogebruik in het peloton?"
HERMANS: "Veel, ja echt waar. Het was als bekend in Spanje. Wij wisten ervan, ik moet eerlijk zijn."
SMEETS: "Je zegt het me enige aarzeling, maar het was toch niet verboden toen?
HERMANS: "Klop, maar toch. Het is no'n beladen woord in de wielrennerij en de topsport geworden."
SMEETS: "En heb je het toen of later genomen?"
Hermans, na weer een stilte.
HERMANS: "Je weet toch wie onze ploegarts was?"
SMEETS: "Dr. Fuentes?"
HERMANS: "Precies, die dus en die kende het product. Die man was, ik meen bij Delgado, een paar jaar eerder de wielersport binnengekomen, een nette, beschaafde man. Hij had het beste med de sportmensen voor en hij kende zijn vak. Je vraaft je af waarom ik dat zeg? Nee, ik hoef niers goed te praten. Ik zeg het omdat ik dat toen van hem vond en nog steeds vind. Dan spreek ik over de tijd dat hij bij onze ploeg was. Hij deed zijn werk bij ons op een goede manier."
SMEETS: "Maar heb je nou wel of niet genomen?"
HERMANS: "Het was toen niet verboden. Laat ik het zo stellen: ik heb mijn sport op een nette manier bedreven. Mag ik het zo zeggen? Ik ben nog steeds gezond en kan met plezier op mijn loopbaan terugkijken."

Theme of "not banned" is consistent in all the three confessions for one reason or another, perhaps explained by their own later EPO use being conflated by Smeets emphasizing that it wasn't banned in 1989, which is the subject of his book. I will go through also what the other Dutch cyclists told about their knowledge about EPO, and post here any relevant and interesting material in the near future.

Almost needless to say, but I (and other readers) would appreciate a valid English translation by a native speaker.

 

[fmk_RoI]

You are right that the train of thought isn't always the most coherent, logical (and honest?) in everything the Dutch cyclists say when they have likely a shortage of time to think an answer in the course of the interview. Rooks (who gave likely no blood samples in any doping control ever) might've referred to a voluntary Hct rule inside his team, e.g. Festina had one of 55 % in the mid-1990s.

Yeah, I was just being a bit pedantic, just to stress the facts. We all know from experience at this stage that everyone has a different definition of what banned means, we saw it clearly in the CIRC report, with some taking a view that if you can't test for it it ain't banned, even if it's on the list.

 

[Cookster15]

Well what I recall and what was suggested here months ago is that regardless of pinpointing exactly when the peloton started using EPO, it took a few years for the doctors to perfect its use. There were some wildly bad rides during this period as well.

Example was Claudio Chiappucci’s ride on stage 10 of the 1993 TdF to Serre Chevalier. I think by the following year the doctors had perfected EPO’s use to get predictable boosts in performance. But certainly its effect was very obvious by 1992 when poor Greg Lemond was humiliated.

 

[Monte Serra]

Gert Jakobs is an interesting case. The "About Gert"-section of his own website claims that he admitted having used EPO in 1989 in the book "Het Laatste Geel" discussed here. But he makes no such a chronology in his later autobiography, and it is difficult to claim that he admits having used EPO in 1989 either in Mart Smeets's book (pp. 92-93):

SMEETS: Did you know about the existence of EPO in1989?"

JAKOBS: "I think so. It first arrived around that time, right? If you looked and listened carefully, you knew something was going on."

SMEETS: "Did you use it?"

JAKOBS: "I'm not gonna lie. Yes, I did use EPO. You know who became my doctor afterwards? Eric Rijkaert, the Belgian. He practically invented the stuff, everyone knew it. I got it from him and used it those years. It wasn't banned and you just had to make sure that your values didn't get above 50. I used it to survive more comfortably [in the bunch], as I knew I was never going to be a GC rider. This way I could finish the Tour in a better shape. "

SMEETS: "You don't regret it?"

JAKOBS: "No, because it wasn't banned. I adapted to what others were doing. Through the years a lot of journalists have asked me if Breukink and Van Poppel had been on EPO as well. I always answered: 'You should ask them'. As I thought it was cowardly to do it through me. I can answer only for myself, and have done so. Yes, I took it. And I speak for myself, not for others. As it should be."

 

[Monte Serra]

Mathieu Hermans is the third Dutch cyclists of the 1989 TDF cyclists, who admitted having used EPO during his career in the book. The allegation that he took the substance in 1989 is partly based on his admission that Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes was his team doctor at that time. But if we read what he actually told Mart Smeets (pp. 85-86), his timeline about his own (implicit) EPO use is really vague and he seems to consider Fuentes a man of honour, what is not the impression one gets from the few words by him quoted in the media from the book. Overall it is interesting if Hermans truly has reliable information about EPO use inside the peloton (by "Spaniards") way back in 1989 even if he didn't use it by himself that early on.

SMEETS: "What did you know in 1989 about the use of EPO in the peloton?
HERMANS: "Quite a lot, yes indeed. It was already known in Spain. We knew about it, I got to be honest."
SMEETS: "You say this with some hesitation. But it wasn't banned at that time?"
HERMANS: "True, but still. It's has become such a loaded word in pro cycling and elite sports."
SMEETS: "And did you use it then, or later on?"
Hermans, after another pause.
HERMANS: "You know who our team doctor was, right?"
SMEETS: "Dr. Fuentes?"
HERMANS: "Exactly, that guy. And he knew the product. He came into cycling a few years earlier, I think with Delgado. He was a decent, civilised man. He had the best intentions when it came to athletes. You wonder why I say these things? No, I don't have to justify anything. I say it, as my opinion about him hasn't changed over the years. And then I'm speaking about the time he worked at our team. He did his job, and he did so properly."
SMEETS: "But did you use it, or not?"
HERMANS: "At that time it wasn't banned at all. Let me put it like this: I practiced my sport in a decent manner. Could I please say so? I am still in good health and I look back on my career fondly."

 

[Huapango]

I raced in the junior event of a criterium near Den Haag in the summer of 1988. A dutch woman died during her race. It was a big deal at the time because I believe she had won a silver medal the previous year in a worlds road race or tt. I forgot her name.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I raced in the junior event of a criterium near Den Haag in the summer of 1988. A dutch woman died during her race. It was a big deal at the time because I believe she had won a silver medal the previous year in a worlds road race or tt. I forgot her name.

It was Connie Meijer.