Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[DirtyWorks]

I can add some insight but i don't post because someone who has no idea and no experience at all will want to argue with what is really going on.

Please, add your experience. Call it your experience and don't apologize for it. It's as simple as that.

 

[Benotti69]

Apparently no one is concerned about the kid being associated with "Hincapie Development?" It's like a collective amnesia sets in.


Here's the link to his affidavit so there is no excuse to remain willfully ignorant: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

And if you refuse to read it, here is just one quote. "In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

Doping doper running a development squad. Again, the crux of the problem isn't the Masters doper, it's the federation.

It is why anyone caught doping or enabling doping should be banned from sport for life.

 

[BroDeal]

Apparently no one is concerned about the kid being associated with "Hincapie Development?" It's like a collective amnesia sets in.

I really do not think Hincapie is there teaching young riders to dope. It is marketing for his clothing company. This idea of getting rid of everyone who raced before cycling went clean in 2006 is fantasy. What other companies are stepping up to fund teams?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I really do not think Hincapie is there teaching young riders to dope. It is marketing for his clothing company. This idea of getting rid of everyone who raced before cycling went clean in 2006 is fantasy. What other companies are stepping up to fund teams?

yep, its a testament to how fragile the business is these days. We will take anybody back if they throw some cash our way.

 

[happychappy]

yes, agree totally

..and Contador's Head

I love that thread.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I really do not think Hincapie is there teaching young riders to dope. It is marketing for his clothing company. This idea of getting rid of everyone who raced before cycling went clean in 2006 is fantasy. What other companies are stepping up to fund teams?

We've already been through this once in the U.S. with Carmichael and it's only gotten worse with Thom having no problem with doping.

Is there a problem with Armstrong funding a development team? Let's bring back Livestrong development team. Thom's money is good and still going strong.

Hincapie's "Don't Do Drugs" speech:
Look children: this is all I’m gonna say about drugs. Stay away from them. There’s a time and a place for everything and it’s called Under 23.

 

[Benotti69]

I really do not think Hincapie is there teaching young riders to dope. It is marketing for his clothing company. This idea of getting rid of everyone who raced before cycling went clean in 2006 is fantasy. What other companies are stepping up to fund teams?

Hincapie is probably not teaching them to dope, yet! But wait till his team gets some success and then wants more success and then Hincapie wants the big time again but this time as DS or team owner. He knows what is required.

JV probably started out with the idea of no doping, but the reality of the culture and the need to achieve result kicks in.

 

[BroDeal]

We've already been through this once in the U.S. with Carmichael and it's only gotten worse with Thom having no problem with doping.

Is there a problem with Armstrong funding a development team? Let's bring back Livestrong development team. Thom's money is good and still going strong.

Hincapie's "Don't Do Drugs" speech:
Look children: this is all I’m gonna say about drugs. Stay away from them. There’s a time and a place for everything and it’s called Under 23.

You have some sort of fixation on Weisel as a Sauron-like dark lord who is behind everything.

Carmichael was doping kids twenty-five years ago. The only thing he has been doing the last fifteen years is pretending his past did not exist so he could grow his coaching business.

The foundations of this conspiracy nonsense is years and in some cases decades out of date.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You have some sort of fixation on Weisel as a Sauron-like dark lord who is behind everything.

Carmichael was doping kids twenty-five years ago. The only thing he has been doing the last fifteen years is pretending his past did not exist so he could grow his coaching business.

The foundations of this conspiracy nonsense is years and in some cases decades out of date.

I can see where you can come to that conclusion, but that's not the case.

Put it another way, if Hincapie is okay, then let's bring back Livestrong development. Young Jane/John parents could proudly state she/he rides on Armstrong's development team. The federation won't give it a second thought. Armstrong's money is good, right?

 

[Kicker661]

Please, add your experience. Call it your experience and don't apologize for it. It's as simple as that.

One of the guys i know who used to race Masters Level at the Worlds on the track had used AAS and EPO early on but changed to a specific vitamin regime and got his best results.

One triathlete i knew was showing his blood results for AAS v altitude tent v vitamins. H count increased 5 points for AAS, 0 points for altitude tent cranked to max, 4 points for vitamins. So yeah, vitamin supplements are a massive key and i think dismissed to quickly by some.

One thing currently being tested as a cancer treatment is almost an AAS equalizer. Legal but virtually impossible to get. Take an unfit, sedentary person and take them outside to shovel dirt for 4 hours. They will complete the work and not be sore the next day. It makes the body feel like it's been trained and you quite simply keep on going hard without the perceived exertion. There is no doubt to me it's a game changer and more importantly, legal.

As much as people hammer on team SKY, i think it's best to assume the top riders will do whatever they can do in terms of PEDs. There is still vitamins, diet, training, lifestyle which are easily just as important as PEDs. These are the 'marginal gains' that SKY refer to and that takes their team from being 'on par' to 'dominating'.

Not sure if the above gets me flamed or whatever but i wanted to show that doping is only part of the picture.

 

[slowoldman]

I can't believe I missed this……..

I have raced personally against Meeker and MKA for about 10 years now. I can tell you without doubt there is rampant doping in So Cal masters. I can also tell you without doubt that not everybody is a So Cal ******bag as was mentioned earlier.

Meeker has always been a strong, smart (as in tactics) racer. He was containable I would say until about 2011. That is when he became unbelievably strong. He went with every move, or bridged to it (and I mean EVERY MOVE). If none of those moves stuck, he would simply win the bunch sprint by 10-15 YARDS (average 4-5 bike lengths) over some very strong, FAST sprinters.

I rode for Schroeder Iron, and then BBI-Schroeder and I can tell you we were a team of strong riders but it took everyone of us to set up our sprinter for a win.

I can tell you there was a lot of speculation of doping with Rich. He was/is a nice guy off the bike but I would be lying if I didn't admit to being one of the more vocal ones (in fact I believe kevin and I had words over it here). I can also tell you this, the positive test result was anticlimactic. Pity is the overriding emotion I feel for him.

That being said, not all So Cal masters riders are partaking. I would be happy to pee in a cup anytime I am asked to. I think it is great that there is proposed testing this year. It can only help to bring back a lot of the racers that have left because of the "enhanced" field.

I know a lot of the guys on Breakaway, I think they're good guys. Sad to see them affected by this.

 

[Ferminal]

We've already been through this once in the U.S. with Carmichael and it's only gotten worse with Thom having no problem with doping.

Is there a problem with Armstrong funding a development team? Let's bring back Livestrong development team. Thom's money is good and still going strong.

Hincapie's "Don't Do Drugs" speech:
Look children: this is all I’m gonna say about drugs. Stay away from them. There’s a time and a place for everything and it’s called Under 23.

lol Armstrong's beast has morphed and now Merckx is completely independent. Another great Lance/Hog legacy

 

[Oldman]

You have some sort of fixation on Weisel as a Sauron-like dark lord who is behind everything.

Carmichael was doping kids twenty-five years ago. The only thing he has been doing the last fifteen years is pretending his past did not exist so he could grow his coaching business.

The foundations of this conspiracy nonsense is years and in some cases decades out of date.

You are correct and before Carmichael the track guys did what they wanted.
Weisel wanted to take over the US version of the sport and found a subterranean way to institutionalize his ambitions. That doesn't excuse Klasna, Grewal...most of them that weren't part of the plan. Unfortunately, when it comes to Masters racing; if you were a friend of Thom's and Steve Johnson you didn't get tested.
As Slowolddude confirms; not all SoCal Masters are juiced but many are. The widespread use certainly was on the rise during the Subaru and Postal Masters era. It just didn't stop and with Reju' clinics out there, probably won't.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

... I can tell you without doubt there is rampant doping in So Cal masters. I can also tell you without doubt that not everybody is a So Cal ******bag as was mentioned earlier.

That being said, not all So Cal masters riders are partaking. I would be happy to pee in a cup anytime I am asked to. I think it is great that there is proposed testing this year. It can only help to bring back a lot of the racers that have left because of the "enhanced" field.

I know a lot of the guys on Breakaway, I think they're good guys. Sad to see them affected by this.

This comment should make everyone in amateur competition sick. When an amateur cannot handle his/her own limitations and has to resort to doping, good guy/gal or not, it is a tremendous indictment about how low and how irrelevant integrity in cycling has become.

It is a slap in the face to every competitor who competed clean or trained his or her *** off to reach maximum performance.

This behaviour is in my view, due in part to the "Armstrong Effect" This effect encompasses the notion that if we cheat and win, we secure celebrity, status or cred.

I am not so naïve to not understand that cheating has always permeated sport, regardless of the sport. But what have we become as human beings?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Apparently no one is concerned about the kid being associated with "Hincapie Development?" It's like a collective amnesia sets in.


Here's the link to his affidavit so there is no excuse to remain willfully ignorant: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

And if you refuse to read it, here is just one quote. "In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

Doping doper running a development squad. Again, the crux of the problem isn't the Masters doper, it's the federation.

I agree and if George wants to sell clothing and people are willing to buy it all the best to him. But where DW is hitting the nail on the head is that if everyone forgets what GH has done and we forgive him because he confessed (under pressure of subpoena) and because he is the proverbial "good guy", where do you draw the line.

I would not want my son/daughter on a Development Team, being influenced by a drug cheat who so easily took to engaging in a doping program. It just seems everyone has forgotten what it is all about! Mano a mano, not doper a doper.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I am guessing AAS is anabolic-androgenic steroids?

One thing currently being tested as a cancer treatment is almost an AAS equalizer. Legal but virtually impossible to get. Take an unfit, sedentary person and take them outside to shovel dirt for 4 hours. They will complete the work and not be sore the next day. It makes the body feel like it's been trained and you quite simply keep on going hard without the perceived exertion. There is no doubt to me it's a game changer and more importantly, legal.

Any more info on this cancer treatment drug?

Do you say it's legal because it's not on a list you've seen?

I think you will find the WADA "illegal substance" definitions provide for unknown drugs not specifically named. I think despite what you claim here, the drug would be illegal thanks to those definitions.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

One of the guys i know who used to race Masters Level at the Worlds on the track had used AAS and EPO early on but changed to a specific vitamin regime and got his best results.

Did he get help setting up the vitamin regimen? Were they off the shelf vitamins or special ones? Specifically supplements with potentially dubious contents, or plain vitamins (C, B1-12, Fe, etc)?

 

[BroDeal]

Put it another way, if Hincapie is okay, then let's bring back Livestrong development. Young Jane/John parents could proudly state she/he rides on Armstrong's development team. The federation won't give it a second thought. Armstrong's money is good, right?

Carmichael is a lowlife. He should have gone to prison, but he got away with it. That was nearly twenty-five years ago. Now he owns, perhaps, the largest coaching service in the U.S. It is big enough to make deals with hard to get in events so people pay a package deal for entry plus a training camp. He would have to be an idiot to be involved with doping today. Similarly, reportedly Hincapie finished his career with a sizable fortune. He and his brother own a clothing brand with a decent reputation. He would have to be a moron to get involved in doping again, especially after his run-in with the feds.

The idea of a pure environment where all the dopers have disappeared is either fantasy or a Team Sky-like scam. For every person who was busted there are ten who were not. People with pasts are ingrained throughout pro cycling in every capacity. The situation is what it is and it will not be going away any time soon. If Hincapie wants to support a development team today, so what? It is no different than someone else who was never caught working as a DS. Unless you plan to quit your job so you can be a DS then the sport has to choose from those who are available, most of whom were involved in doping, especially if they raced at the highest level.

 

[Ferminal]

Did he get help setting up the vitamin regimen? Were they off the shelf vitamins or special ones? Specifically supplements with potentially dubious contents, or plain vitamins (C, B1-12, Fe, etc)?

More importantly, how do they act to deliver an aerobic benefit in a healthy athlete... Not sure there are clear results, but hey, I don't think there are clear results for EPO either.

Might be some benefit for skeletons on monster training blocks or during GTs.

And yeh, anything new and dodgy like all those amino acid chains if not banned by default will be once they're recognised.

 

[MarkvW]

Carmichael is a lowlife. He should have gone to prison, but he got away with it. That was nearly twenty-five years ago. Now he owns, perhaps, the largest coaching service in the U.S. It is big enough to make deals with hard to get in events so people pay a package deal for entry plus a training camp. He would have to be an idiot to be involved with doping today. Similarly, reportedly Hincapie finished his career with a sizable fortune. He and his brother own a clothing brand with a decent reputation. He would have to be a moron to get involved in doping again, especially after his run-in with the feds.

The idea of a pure environment where all the dopers have disappeared is either fantasy or a Team Sky-like scam. For every person who was busted there are ten who were not. People with pasts are ingrained throughout pro cycling in every capacity. The situation is what it is and it will not be going away any time soon. If Hincapie wants to support a development team today, so what? It is no different than someone else who was never caught working as a DS. Unless you plan to quit your job so you can be a DS then the sport has to choose from those who are available, most of whom were involved in doping, especially if they raced at the highest level.

The sport is so deliciously filthy. It's a great soap opera. People who take it seriously just make it that more interesting when it inevitably nosedives.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

More importantly, how do they act to deliver an aerobic benefit in a healthy athlete... Not sure there are clear results, but hey, I don't think there are clear results for EPO either.

He wrote they increased H - I am guessing this is Hgb? It would be good to see the actual data, coz my understanding is AAS / EPO alone won't increase Hgb if your B1-12 / Fe are kaput, which would seem to be the case if a vitamin regimen allows for a similar increase in Hgb. Or. Yeah anyway it all seems interesting.

Would also be interesting to see the protocol for regimen comparison. Time between AAS / EPO / vitamin regimens, and actual Hgb values between (before) and after. Each regimen would take a week+ to restore to baseline, etc.

Need more input.

 

[gregod]

Apparently no one is concerned about the kid being associated with "Hincapie Development?" It's like a collective amnesia sets in.


Here's the link to his affidavit so there is no excuse to remain willfully ignorant: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

And if you refuse to read it, here is just one quote. "In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

Doping doper running a development squad. Again, the crux of the problem isn't the Masters doper, it's the federation.

thanks for the link. number 25 is interesting because while it may be george's honest recollection, it is not what ferrari actually said.

 

[gregod]

why is rider-4, bobby julich's name redacted?

 

[Kicker661]

I am guessing AAS is anabolic-androgenic steroids?

Any more info on this cancer treatment drug?

Do you say it's legal because it's not on a list you've seen?

I think you will find the WADA "illegal substance" definitions provide for unknown drugs not specifically named. I think despite what you claim here, the drug would be illegal thanks to those definitions.

AAS - yes you are correct. Sorry i should have expanded on that.

I won't give much info on here but essentially it's already known but the application is wrong which is why people aren't getting results. The treatment test has the application correct which is why it's being tested. If it gets the green light, i'd expect it to be on the list.

It's similar in a sense to Idebenone. The Drug companies are trying to get it banned because it's insanely powerful.

Did he get help setting up the vitamin regimen? Were they off the shelf vitamins or special ones? Specifically supplements with potentially dubious contents, or plain vitamins (C, B1-12, Fe, etc)?

He didn't need help as he was the cutting edge guy who you asked for help. From memory the important ones were Mag, zing, iron (although debatable and watch your lungs), folic acid, B Complex, B12 and then 1ml B12 injections EOD. Just to be clear that's not 1 of each, we're talking taking a number of each and i recall he said the B12 tablets were taken throughout the day. Wouldn't surprised me if that was 10+. The thing is tablets give crap absorption so you really do need to crank it up.

There was a bunch of Russian studies done by Sports Scientists which had a range of things from AAS and Vitamins. It was always vitamins with food (they reckoned meat) otherwise absorption isn't great and also 6 weeks on vitamins, 1 week off.

 

[bobbins]

And does anyone from the UK remember which top UK rider from the 90s used to be looked after by Angus Fraser?

The same one that gets wheeled out on sky news every now and again to slag Armstrong off and told the daily mail that armstrong had him sacked for not wanting to dope. The same one that is close mates with Richard Moore who believes that no one from the 90s is clean.

Apparently no one is concerned about the kid being associated with "Hincapie Development?" It's like a collective amnesia sets in.


Here's the link to his affidavit so there is no excuse to remain willfully ignorant: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

And if you refuse to read it, here is just one quote. "In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

Doping doper running a development squad. Again, the crux of the problem isn't the Masters doper, it's the federation.