Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[Pontiac]

Just out of curiosity, everyone saying "my dad at 70" or "the guys I know" how old are you/they or how long ago?

The 20 somethings from when the sport of cycling started its meteroric rise amongst the average person are the 40-50 somethings now. Cycling has been the new golf for 10-15 years. Racers who used to retire from serious racing at 40ish to become organisers etc. now race on into their 70s. Male HRT and the likes of Wegovy are promoted as normal natural wellbeing hacks for those who want to maintain their weight, strength, energy etc. as they age.

So I do wonder how out of touch people posting on this forum are. It may be the minority for whom HRT makes a difference enough for them to win and stand out, but I'm not convinced it's therefore the minority dabbling in it. I'm on a few other cycling forums where if a doctor prescribed T for low natural T, they insist it's not cheating and just levelling the field/letting them live their lives to the fullest/staying healthy. The cognitive dissonance is very noticeable.

Thank you for posting this! I really didn't want to respond earlier. I am one of those old guys (73 now) who raced as a kid and started up again as a master. The drug issue is real and and has been for a very long time. I sure saw it as a kid and though I started as a master and thought no way were masters doing it.....well, I was sadly mistaken. I'll be the first to admit that the majority of guys in the pack were most likely not doping. In any race, it's only 5% that are in the running for a win and once I got fit enough to win again, that is when I noticed the doping was widespread with the old guys in that group. It was enough to make me question my own mindset in wanting to win and seeing where it led other guys. Stand back for a sec and it all seems pretty stupid, again for just for those gunning to win....nothing against guys who can keep it in balance and are happy filling out the pack.

When I raced in France Hinault was famous for using that argument about hormonal balance! That crap filters down through the ranks. I took lots of the stuff the doctors gave me, just couldn't bring myself to do the testosterone, steroids or speed. But the docs always used to say, but you have to if you want to race at this level.

 

[Sciatic]

Having the means and actually doing that safely are worlds apart. There is no comparison between blood doping and ‘roids or growth hormone common in gyms. Those are much less likely to kill you if you get it wrong. I am also sure there are unscrupulous doctors but you would expect to read about tip offs occasionally? Risk your life to win amateur masters bike races? I’ll believe it when we read hard evidence.

Why would taking EPO (if that's what you mean by blood doping) be more dangerous or worse or more difficult than anabolic steroids? Yes, it they try to push their hematocrit to 60 it will risk cardiac danger. But all it does is add a synthetic version to a hormone that already is circulating, which tells the bone marrow to make more blood cells. It doesn't have overall systemic effects like anabolic steroids do. It's also a much easier injection (steroid injections need to go IM into large muscle, EPO injections are intradermal with a tiny needle).

 

[Sciatic]

Just out of curiosity, everyone saying "my dad at 70" or "the guys I know" how old are you/they or how long ago?

The 20 somethings from when the sport of cycling started its meteroric rise amongst the average person are the 40-50 somethings now. Cycling has been the new golf for 10-15 years. Racers who used to retire from serious racing at 40ish to become organisers etc. now race on into their 70s. Male HRT and the likes of Wegovy are promoted as normal natural wellbeing hacks for those who want to maintain their weight, strength, energy etc. as they age.

So I do wonder how out of touch people posting on this forum are. It may be the minority for whom HRT makes a difference enough for them to win and stand out, but I'm not convinced it's therefore the minority dabbling in it. I'm on a few other cycling forums where if a doctor prescribed T for low natural T, they insist it's not cheating and just levelling the field/letting them live their lives to the fullest/staying healthy. The cognitive dissonance is very noticeable.

I agree. It also suggests that folks think cyclists have more integrity than gym-bros or high-school football players taking steroids or women wanting to stay ultra skinny (via drugs). I tend to think cyclists have more integrity than some of those other myself, but I'm obviously biased as would be most posters here.

 

[Sciatic]

This is sort of a trick question with a trick answer. There are tons of side effects for both steroids and EPO but with EPO you have to have doctors supervision for a while to counter act any blood clots and you can have some issues with nutrition.

I know people who have used it and you can get diarrhea to a degree were you see partially digested food passing and if you are not supervised by a doctor you could get blood clots, hypertension to the point of cardiac arrest and diarrhea type symptoms. From what I understand under a doctors care most symptoms can be mitigated. I said this in an earlier post but many medical norms in the US are being turned upside down or changed to a degree of practically being eliminated... We have an age grade national champ getting popped and you have to wonder.. At least I do..

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ0UF4sM3E4&pp=ygUUdGVzdG9zdGVyb25lIHRoZXJhcHk%3D

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nGXZmfu5JWQ&pp=0gcJCZEKAYcqIYzv

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H64KAkM0wF4

The last video is pretty good

So, I've been getting weekly EPO injections for over two years, 40,000 IU per injection, and know several other folks I've met through the clinic who take it as well. The hypertension effect that you describe is real if the dosages are pushed too high. The other side effects you mention are obscure and highly unusual. Of the hundreds of folks with whom I've discussed their own EPO use (in a private support group), no one has mentioned diarrhea. And these are folks (me as well) who are taking doses much, much higher than cyclists micro-dosing schedules. There are no nutrition issues, and no steps to monitor blood clots--just monthly bloodwork to determine HGB/HCT levels.
EPO went on the market in 1987, and there have been dozens and dozens of long-term research studies and on its efficacy, safety, and side effects in the thirty-five years since then. Of the various blood boosting agents used in medicine, it is among the most benign with the least side effects. Could someone harm themselves (mainly cardiac/pulmonary) by taking too much and pushing their hematocrit too high? Yes, of course. Can someone harm themselves by taking too much iron or too many other supplements? Yes.

There is, however, one problem I have with EPO--it's effectiveness eventually wanes and disappears, and the median duration for effectiveness to last is 2 yrs.

 

[Netserk]

So, I've been getting weekly EPO injections for over two years, 40,000 IU per injection, and know several other folks I've met through the clinic who take it as well.

for doping context, michael rasmussen writes that when he only used epo as blood doping, 5000 iu four days in a row was considered a rather large dosage (back in 2002).

 

[Cookster15]

But the docs always used to say, but you have to if you want to race at this level.

Thanks for sharing your experience. But on the quote a doctor said this to you when you were racing masters?Why would a GP (Primary Care Physician) be advising you on a doping method? Huge ethical issue for me.

I am one of those old guys (73 now) who raced as a kid and started up again as a master. The drug issue is real and and has been for a very long time

I alluded to this recently. Old guys are slower but they do trend to have more money by that age. More money for doping but also more money for the right doctors.

 

[Pontiac]

Thanks for sharing your experience. But on the quote a doctor said this to you when you were racing masters?Why would a GP (Primary Care Physician) be advising you on a doping method? Huge ethical issue for me.



I alluded to this recently. Old guys are slower but they do trend to have more money by that age. More money for doping but also more money for the right doctors.

OMG! I am referring back to when I raced as a kid in Europe. Go back a few years and read my posts in this thread.

 

[Cookster15]

OMG! I am referring back to when I raced as a kid in Europe. Go back a few years and read my posts in this thread.

Thanks for clarifying. I raised a point recently that blood doping isn't something amateurs can do in the way gym junkies abuse steroids. That's why doctors are needed else you are taking huge risks with your life - just to win amateur masters bike races? Do you think masters racers are blood doping or is it less sophisticated stuff?

 

[Pontiac]

Thanks for clarifying. I raised a point recently that blood doping isn't something amateurs can do in the way gym junkies abuse steroids. That's why doctors are needed else you are taking huge risks with your life - just to win amateur masters bike races? Do you think masters racers are blood doping or is it less sophisticated stuff?

I don't know and only heard scuttlebutt that some guys were. It sounds like it is or was pretty easy to buy the stuff, so I would not be surprised. You gotta realize the thought process of these amateurs and masters who were drinking the kool aid...."if the pros were doing it, then I need to be doing it". Jeez, I used to be shocked when I would hear of masters going for wind tunnel testing or getting their hematocrit tested.....I finally gathered my wits and decided these were not guys I wanted to hang with and stopped racing.

 

[Cookster15]

I finally gathered my wits and decided these were not guys I wanted to hang with and stopped racing.

That's really sad. In my part of the world there is a vibrant graded club level masters racing scene (masters 1 and older). I stopped about 2007 due to family commitments. But I never really suspected the top guys at our club of doping and certainly not blood doping like we know the pros dabble in. That is only possible with unscrupulous doctors monitoring and administering EPO or transfusions. Unless you are a diabetic I don't think people are going to stick needles in their arms to win amateur masters bike races. And even if they were so silly it should be obvious.

 

[Pontiac]

That's really sad. In my part of the world there is a vibrant graded club level masters racing scene (masters 1 and older). I stopped about 2007 due to family commitments. But I never really suspected the top guys at our club of doping and certainly not blood doping like we know the pros dabble in. That is only possible with unscrupulous doctors monitoring and administering EPO or transfusions. Unless you are a diabetic I don't think people are going to stick needles in their arms to win amateur masters bike races. And even if they were so silly it should be obvious.

Well, I admire your rosy outlook on the sport.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, I admire your rosy outlook on the sport.

We all draw opinions from our own experiences. Just sharing mine. I acknowledge that in the US there are some people with plenty of money to throw at doctors for their kicks. Might also be worth knowing who you can report suspect masters riders to so someone sends the testers. That's what I would do.

 

[Sciatic]

for doping context, michael rasmussen writes that when he only used epo as blood doping, 5000 iu four days in a row was considered a rather large dosage (back in 2002).

Interesting. I would think current micro-dosing, if and whereever it's happening, might be even smaller doses per injection?

 

[Sciatic]

Thanks for clarifying. I raised a point recently that blood doping isn't something amateurs can do in the way gym junkies abuse steroids. That's why doctors are needed else you are taking huge risks with your life - just to win amateur masters bike races? Do you think masters racers are blood doping or is it less sophisticated stuff?

Like I pointed out above, using EPO injections (while easily detectable at larger doses) is not taking huge risks with one's life as long as a rider monitors his HCT and doesn't take massive doses. Probably monitoring the HCT is more problematic than taking the injections. (Yes, there are at-home blood tests but not always accurate). To be clear, I'm not advocating athletes dope with it, but the complexity of taking and monitoring EPO use is less than people (including me originally) seem to think.

 

[Cookster15]

Like I pointed out above, using EPO injections (while easily detectable at larger doses) is not taking huge risks with one's life as long as a rider monitors his HCT and doesn't take massive doses. Probably monitoring the HCT is more problematic than taking the injections. (Yes, there are at-home blood tests but not always accurate). To be clear, I'm not advocating athletes dope with it, but the complexity of taking and monitoring EPO use is less than people (including me originally) seem to think.

Not doubting what you saw and I realise you are not advocating. But still seems crazy to stick a needle in your arm and take the associated risks without medical supervision to win amateur masters races? And it’s a bit more than a diabetic injection.

What ages are we talking masters 1 to 3 or older? If was me I’d be asking questions at the club if anyone is monitoring or testing these guys ?

Chat GPT says this when asked how is EPO administered by cyclists:

Non-medical use can be dangerous — thickened blood, higher risk of clots, stroke, heart attack, and sudden death, especially when combined with dehydration or intense exercise.

 

[Sciatic]

Not doubting what you saw and I realise you are not advocating. But still seems crazy to stick a needle in your arm and take the associated risks without medical supervision to win amateur masters races? And it’s a bit more than a diabetic injection.

What ages are we talking masters 1 to 3 or older? If was me I’d be asking questions at the club if anyone is monitoring or testing these guys ?

Chat GPT says this when asked how is EPO administered by cyclists:

I agree it’s crazy to think of recreational or amateur Cat riders doing any of that. But in the larger scope of things, it seems crazier that people go under the knife for plastic surgery simply to look better and feel better about themselves, why do you think cyclists wouldn’t be liable to get similar outcomes via drugs?

 

[RedheadDane]

Unless you are a diabetic I don't think people are going to stick needles in their arms to win amateur masters bike races.

And are they sticking needles in their arms to win races...
Or to, you know, not die?

 

[Netserk]

Interesting. I would think current micro-dosing, if and whereever it's happening, might be even smaller doses per injection?

absolutely, that was when he knew he wouldn't be tested while he was glowing

it was more to show that even a big dose of epo as doping is smaller than what you get

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Thanks for clarifying. I raised a point recently that blood doping isn't something amateurs can do in the way gym junkies abuse steroids. That's why doctors are needed else you are taking huge risks with your life - just to win amateur masters bike races? Do you think masters racers are blood doping or is it less sophisticated stuff?

Diy blood doping is doable if you can get your hands on the stuff, EPO in a prefilled pen isn't exactly hard to use and you could even go with oral medication at the amateur level, i doubt they routinely test for HIF inhibitors there. Blood bags, well that's another story as you pointed out. Ricco nearly killed himself trying that.

 

[Cookster15]

Diy blood doping is doable if you can get your hands on the stuff, EPO in a prefilled pen isn't exactly hard to use and you could even go with oral medication at the amateur level, i doubt they routinely test for HIF inhibitors there. Blood bags, well that's another story as you pointed out. Ricco nearly killed himself trying that.

Thanks for this. Then for masters racing it comes back to targeted testing for rEPO and maybe clubs making that clear to members that such testing can occur.

 

[Sciatic]

Diy blood doping is doable if you can get your hands on the stuff, EPO in a prefilled pen isn't exactly hard to use and you could even go with oral medication at the amateur level, i doubt they routinely test for HIF inhibitors there. Blood bags, well that's another story as you pointed out. Ricco nearly killed himself trying that.

EPO in prefilled syringes is often the brand name Eprex, but in the U.S. that isn't used as much in medical settings (which perhaps makes it less available) because most insurance doesn't cover it. But if someone is going to bother to dope with EPO, it makes much more sense to buy the ampules and learn to inject themselves, which any diabetic can show them how to do. That way they can do smaller dose more often, as you would expect a rider to do. The ampules come in 10,000, 20,000, 40,000 units. I believe the same would be true for the pre-filled auto syringes so likely too big a one-time dose for doping.

 

[proffate]

But still seems crazy to stick a needle in your arm and take the associated risks without medical supervision to win amateur masters races?

Masters racers, especially at the pointy end, have the biggest egos of anyone. People with normal size egos don't keep racing compulsively and obsessively so far past their youth. So yes of course the egotistical types are willing to enhance. I'm pretty sure the risk from the drug is less than the inherent risk of crit racing anyway.

 

[Cookster15]

People with normal size egos don't keep racing compulsively and obsessively so far past their youth

No doubt this is true of a small minority. But most keep racing because they enjoy it and it’s good for your health as you age (assuming you don’t crash). At least that’s why I did - not because I had an oversized ego?

But point taken with a large enough sample size no doubt you would get some willing to dope to win masters races.

 

[smaryka]

I stopped about 2007 due to family commitments. But I never really suspected the top guys at our club of doping and certainly not blood doping like we know the pros dabble in.

This was my point. That's nearly 20 years ago you stopped, and right before road racing (in the UK where I am) went mainstream. Have you taken a look at the scene in recent years when forming your opinion that it's both crazy and difficult to dope to win master's races? The Overton window has shifted considerably.

 

[red_flanders]

Masters racers, especially at the pointy end, have the biggest egos of anyone. People with normal size egos don't keep racing compulsively and obsessively so far past their youth. So yes of course the egotistical types are willing to enhance. I'm pretty sure the risk from the drug is less than the inherent risk of crit racing anyway.

They also tend to have the financial resources.