Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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Re: Re:

Merckx index said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Second in the Giro and second in the Tour is one of the best double attempts since Pantani. And that in his first ever season riding two Grand Tours. Chapeau!
I think it is the best double since Pantani (assuming he finishes second), surprised there hasn't been more emphasis on that. Assuming Froome finishes off the podium, I think Dumo's double is the more impressive. Thomas picked up at least 30 seconds on bonuses, which of course aren't always on offer in Tours, and another 50 seconds because Dumo had a mechanical the first week. Take those away, and Dumo would be 45" behind, possibly close enough to take yellow tomorrow. Just with that one not so long ITT, when Tours usually have two of them.

Should also consider, though, that Roglic lost more than a minute to both Thomas/Froome and Dumo in the TTT. Take that away, and he'd be solidly in second now.
How?
1-4 >>>>> 2-2 in terms of success because Froome actually won one.
 
Simply incredibly frustrating to see Thomas finally get isolated and him just being able to let Dumoulin chase Roglic down. 2nd place is worth defending and all but Thomas was never in enough trouble to really judge how strong he is. So either he did not have more dominance to exert or he simply choose/could choose not to. I don't like either of those options. The first one makes the victory feel more frustrating and the second one I just plainly don't like out of a cyclist .
 
Re: Re:

Merckx index said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Second in the Giro and second in the Tour is one of the best double attempts since Pantani. And that in his first ever season riding two Grand Tours. Chapeau!
I think it is the best double since Pantani (assuming he finishes second), surprised there hasn't been more emphasis on that. Assuming Froome finishes off the podium, I think Dumo's double is the more impressive. Thomas picked up at least 30 seconds on bonuses, which of course aren't always on offer in Tours, and another 50 seconds because Dumo had a mechanical the first week. Take those away, and Dumo would be 45" behind, possibly close enough to take yellow tomorrow. Just with that one not so long ITT, when Tours usually have two of them.

Should also consider, though, that Roglic lost more than a minute to both Thomas/Froome and Dumo in the TTT. Take that away, and he'd be solidly in second now.
G has collected 33” in bonus time to TD’s 12, so a 21s difference. The mechanical and penalty to Mur de Bretagne are obviously more significant (the 20s penalty alone is nearly as much as the bonus difference).


Did I see I here that Thomas has taken time from Dumoulin on 6 or 7 different stages, and has yet to lose time to him once? Ultimately that (and the team support that helped him to that fortunate situation) is what has Thomas 2 minutes clear right now.
 
Well I guess he didn’t snatch it from him personally, but yeah, taken, gained, put time into, however you want to express it.

And yes, all in small bursts of a few seconds, death by a thousand cuts as it were, but that’s pretty much how you win Grand Tours these days.
 
Based on that he already rode a successful Giro and came to the Tour with the goal of testing his body on a second consecutive GT. The Giro was the goal of the year, the Tour is the bonus, he said it multiple times. A podium at the TdF is a pretty solid bonus if you ask me. For sure beyond expectation. Absolutely magnificent ride from Tom after that demanding Giro. He handled the fatigue better than Froome, and that says a LOT.

And as others pointed that out, Thomas doesn't really beat Dumoulin even once. It's possible that the difference between the two is smaller than what time Tom can make up on Geraint tomorrow if we take into account that he lost that 50 sec + 20 for penalty and 20 for boni seconds.
Thomas was still better, but the difference is very small, and I'm confident in saying that if they had rode this race with switched teams Tom would've been the winner.
 
Re: Re:

Forever The Best said:
Merckx index said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Second in the Giro and second in the Tour is one of the best double attempts since Pantani. And that in his first ever season riding two Grand Tours. Chapeau!
I think it is the best double since Pantani (assuming he finishes second), surprised there hasn't been more emphasis on that. Assuming Froome finishes off the podium, I think Dumo's double is the more impressive. Thomas picked up at least 30 seconds on bonuses, which of course aren't always on offer in Tours, and another 50 seconds because Dumo had a mechanical the first week. Take those away, and Dumo would be 45" behind, possibly close enough to take yellow tomorrow. Just with that one not so long ITT, when Tours usually have two of them.

Should also consider, though, that Roglic lost more than a minute to both Thomas/Froome and Dumo in the TTT. Take that away, and he'd be solidly in second now.
How?
1-4 >>>>> 2-2 in terms of success because Froome actually won one.
Can't deny that, 1-10 is better than 2-2. It's the 1 that carries most weight!
 
Re: Re:

Carols said:
Forever The Best said:
Merckx index said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Second in the Giro and second in the Tour is one of the best double attempts since Pantani. And that in his first ever season riding two Grand Tours. Chapeau!
I think it is the best double since Pantani (assuming he finishes second), surprised there hasn't been more emphasis on that. Assuming Froome finishes off the podium, I think Dumo's double is the more impressive. Thomas picked up at least 30 seconds on bonuses, which of course aren't always on offer in Tours, and another 50 seconds because Dumo had a mechanical the first week. Take those away, and Dumo would be 45" behind, possibly close enough to take yellow tomorrow. Just with that one not so long ITT, when Tours usually have two of them.

Should also consider, though, that Roglic lost more than a minute to both Thomas/Froome and Dumo in the TTT. Take that away, and he'd be solidly in second now.
How?
1-4 >>>>> 2-2 in terms of success because Froome actually won one.
Can't deny that, 1-10 is better than 2-2. It's the 1 that carries most weight!
1-4 or 1-100 is worth more on a riders palmares than 2-2. That’s quite obvious. But 2-2, particularly a 2-2 where both races were reasonably close, is a better indicator of potential to actually do that double. Not that Dumoulin should try it again unless he wins a few Tours first.
 
I have really enjoyed the revelation of Roglic, this Tour. But I still hope Dumo hangs on for 2nd. Of the top guys, I like how he has persevered, tough as nails. He has closed a lot of gaps by himself. Still, Primoz has the momentum, now. That Giro/Tour fatigue has to be creeping up on Dumo. In the GC battle, the race is for 2nd and 3rd. Froome still has a shot at the podium, but he looked really cooked today.
 
Re:

kiszol said:
Based on that he already rode a successful Giro and came to the Tour with the goal of testing his body on a second consecutive GT. The Giro was the goal of the year, the Tour is the bonus, he said it multiple times. A podium at the TdF is a pretty solid bonus if you ask me. For sure beyond expectation. Absolutely magnificent ride from Tom after that demanding Giro. He handled the fatigue better than Froome, and that says a LOT.

And as others pointed that out, Thomas doesn't really beat Dumoulin even once. It's possible that the difference between the two is smaller than what time Tom can make up on Geraint tomorrow if we take into account that he lost that 50 sec + 20 for penalty and 20 for boni seconds.
Thomas was still better, but the difference is very small, and I'm confident in saying that if they had rode this race with switched teams Tom would've been the winner.
You answered the wrong "based on". I agree that he has been a stud at GTs this year. My based on was why would he lose time to Roglic in a TT?
 
Re: Re:

Forever The Best said:
1-4 >>>>> 2-2 in terms of success because Froome actually won one.
Not everyone believes winning is everything. Contador won the Giro then finished top 5 in the Tour twice (though the first time didn't count). No one has finished on the podium in both the Giro and the Tour since Pantani.

Also, if Dumoulin finishes second and Froome finishes fourth, Dumoulin will win slightly more WT points for the two GTs, 1480 vs. 1425.
 
He has now surpassed Froome as the current top GT rider in my book.This is absolutely the best double attempt since Pantani and he lost the Giro mainly for a tactical error in the Finestre stage. I'd even argue that overall he looked better in the Tour than in the Giro, Next year full focus on the Tour, hopefully giving a serious shot at some spring classics.
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
kiszol said:
Based on that he already rode a successful Giro and came to the Tour with the goal of testing his body on a second consecutive GT. The Giro was the goal of the year, the Tour is the bonus, he said it multiple times. A podium at the TdF is a pretty solid bonus if you ask me. For sure beyond expectation. Absolutely magnificent ride from Tom after that demanding Giro. He handled the fatigue better than Froome, and that says a LOT.

And as others pointed that out, Thomas doesn't really beat Dumoulin even once. It's possible that the difference between the two is smaller than what time Tom can make up on Geraint tomorrow if we take into account that he lost that 50 sec + 20 for penalty and 20 for boni seconds.
Thomas was still better, but the difference is very small, and I'm confident in saying that if they had rode this race with switched teams Tom would've been the winner.
You answered the wrong "based on". I agree that he has been a stud at GTs this year. My based on was why would he lose time to Roglic in a TT?
Because the bookies say so.
 
Re:

rick james said:
Sadly you need to win one for it to be called a double
Yes a second place in the first race of the double means double fail. Is two seconds better than a first and fourth ? Not that any of this has been decided yet. Froome has done four GTs in a row so he has good reason to be tired. I think Froome tired earlier than Dumoulin who also started to look weary on the past two mountains stages.
 
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SafeBet said:
He has now surpassed Froome as the current top GT rider in my book.This is absolutely the best double attempt since Pantani and he lost the Giro mainly for a tactical error in the Finestre stage. I'd even argue that overall he looked better in the Tour than in the Giro, Next year full focus on the Tour, hopefully giving a serious shot at some spring classics.
Maybe the best GT rider between the two in this race . Wonder how Dumo would have done if he another 3 consecutive GT's in his legs. I ain't knocking how he has gone on in this race and the Giro but the circumstances are quite different.
 
Re:

SafeBet said:
I said "double attempt". You can call it a fail, but it's still the most remarkable fail in contemporary cycling.
I meant you have to win the first one. Not a fail at both races but a fail to achieve the double if he loses the first race. Obviously he has done very well. I hope he hangs onto second.
 
Good that finally someone adresses this. Motorpacing somehow is and has always been too normal in cycling imo. However I do wonder where this "I was sprinting full while Roglic just rode away on a straight road" thing happened. As far as I saw it, Dumoulin almost immediately left a small (safety?) gap when going into the descent. This gap more or less remained the same for the majority of the descent, until Roglic starts extending it more and more towards the end. Maybe with a little help from the moto, but imo Roglic was simply outdescending Dumoulin and would have ridden away regardless.
 

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