Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Valv.Piti said:
Yeah, the TTT didnt matter one bit in terms of who won the race. Armstrong was superior to Ullrich, Beloki etc. every year outside of 2003.
That's not what he's saying imo. Who won the TTT doesn't matter because USP still created a big gap with the teams of Ulrich, Basso, Beloki... even if USP didn't win the TTT. We weren't debating if Armstrong was better or not, but whyy the time gaps were so much bigger than in recent tours.
Not that much time tbh. Beloki was always on great teams, Basso only was a contender in 04 and 05 and they didnt really lose time there. CSC was super strong in that discipline. If i remember correctly Ullrich never lost massive amounts of time and in the end, it was totally irrelevant as Armstrong just obliterated him on the first MTF of the race and from that point on, pretty much, there was never any doubt of who would win (Ullrich certainly wouldnt).
 
Beloki was the only contender who wasn't at a serious disadvantage in the TTT. After the prologue in 2004 Basso didn't lose a single second to Armstrong until the stage 16 Alpe d'Huez TT, except the heaps of time that CSC lost in the team time trial.

The thing about USPS and the TTT dominance was that it crushed the hopes of many contenders not named Beloki, Ullrich or Basso and rendered them irrelevant, making the GC fight less unpredictable and easier to control.

I have no idea what this discussion has got to do with Dumoulin, but it's a good discussion and it's the off season, so we should be excused. :D
 
The baffling thing is that ITT kms were substantial in the Armstrong era, despite him having a massive advantage over most of his rivals, with the exception of Ullrich, who he still beat quite handily 80% of the time. Lumpy and medium mountain stages that may have been harder to control were very rare in those parcours, and Armstrong usually killed it on long MTF's. And yet today, when you have a David who might be able to slay Goliath, given a substantial amount of ITT and long, steady MTF's; instead is consistently hit with minimal ITT and more murito (at least for TDF standards) style finishers.
 
Re:

gregrowlerson said:
The baffling thing is that ITT kms were substantial in the Armstrong era, despite him having a massive advantage over most of his rivals, with the exception of Ullrich, who he still beat quite handily 80% of the time. Lumpy and medium mountain stages that may have been harder to control were very rare in those parcours, and Armstrong usually killed it on long MTF's. And yet today, when you have a David who might be able to slay Goliath, given a substantial amount of ITT and long, steady MTF's; instead is consistently hit with minimal ITT and more murito (at least for TDF standards) style finishers.
Cause they dodn't want TD to win TdF over Sky, they want some random French mountain goat to do it... naive fools they are :D
 
Re: Re:

glassmoon said:
gregrowlerson said:
The baffling thing is that ITT kms were substantial in the Armstrong era, despite him having a massive advantage over most of his rivals, with the exception of Ullrich, who he still beat quite handily 80% of the time. Lumpy and medium mountain stages that may have been harder to control were very rare in those parcours, and Armstrong usually killed it on long MTF's. And yet today, when you have a David who might be able to slay Goliath, given a substantial amount of ITT and long, steady MTF's; instead is consistently hit with minimal ITT and more murito (at least for TDF standards) style finishers.
Cause they dodn't want TD to win TdF over Sky, they want some random French mountain goat to do it... naive fools they are :D
Then why are all the mountain stages so bad and why is there a TTT?
 
Because the Rovereto ITT was dead flat (not his fav TT)
And the Espelette TT was at the end of a grand Tour after doing his first second GT in a row. So it's not a reference.

Put a TT in the first or 2nd week and Dumoulin wil create a greater difference
 
Re:

tobydawq said:
I don't think it's that similar. Back then, Armstrong was just ultra superior, often winning by 5-7 minutes. Beating him was completely unrealistic.

Dumoulin and Roglic could be very close to Froome and Thomas who are not individually that superior to their rivals.
They are on the strongest grand tour gc team by far. Froome can out climb and out time trial all of his rivals with exception of Dumoulin in the itt and based on this year's Tour the same applies to Thomas. So individually overall they both are superior to their rivals overall by significant margin, IMO.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
This is what impresses me the most about Armstrong. Say what you want about him, but just being there to exert his dominance for seven straight years without incident is quite an achievement.
 
Re: Re:

Squire said:
Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
This is what impresses me the most about Armstrong. Say what you want about him, but just being there to exert his dominance for seven straight years without incident is quite an achievement.
He had everything Porte ever wished for :D
 
Re: Re:

Akuryo said:
Squire said:
Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
This is what impresses me the most about Armstrong. Say what you want about him, but just being there to exert his dominance for seven straight years without incident is quite an achievement.
He had everything Porte ever wished for :D
Armstrong had 0 wins on Willunga Hill.
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
He made up for it in his final Tour with multiple crashes. One was a nasty one involving a traffic island. He also crashed on the Paris stage when he won his final Tour when he slid out on a corner but he was fine. That was before they started the city circuit. But generally he rarely crashed.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
He made up for it in his final Tour with multiple crashes. One was a nasty one involving a traffic island. He also crashed on the Paris stage when he won his final Tour when he slid out on a corner but he was fine. That was before they started the city circuit. But generally he rarely crashed.
Did he actually crash in 2005? Thought it was the guy(s) in front of him.
 
Re: Re:

kingjr said:
movingtarget said:
Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
He made up for it in his final Tour with multiple crashes. One was a nasty one involving a traffic island. He also crashed on the Paris stage when he won his final Tour when he slid out on a corner but he was fine. That was before they started the city circuit. But generally he rarely crashed.
Did he actually crash in 2005? Thought it was the guy(s) in front of him.
Yes you are right, it was rider in front of him ! My Armstrong memories are fading........
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
Angliru said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Dumoulin vs Sky

Sky vs US Postal

I'm still following
While Sky's dominance seems as absolute as US Postal's, the lead Froome, Wiggins, Thomas had... was usually not of the same magnitude as that of Armstrong. How come? That's what we were discussing :)
Armstrong wasn't riding multiple grand tours in a season either, rarely got sick or crashed, nor rarely had a bad day in 7 consecutive years.
He made up for it in his final Tour with multiple crashes. One was a nasty one involving a traffic island. He also crashed on the Paris stage when he won his final Tour when he slid out on a corner but he was fine. That was before they started the city circuit. But generally he rarely crashed.
He crashed on Luz-Ardiden.

And yes, after his comeback he crashed a lot more. He also broke his collarbone in Vuelta Castilla y León in the spring of 2009 after having publicly stated that Contador still had a lot to learn about riding a bike since he had sugar-flatted himself out of the Paris-Nice victory.
 
Aug 18, 2017
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another Giro Tour double attempt
Sunweb has uploaded a video on Twitter, in which Dumoulin - who is currently at training camp - addresses his choice.
"This is the time to share good news regarding my program for the coming season. After having consulted for weeks, we have decided that the Giro d'Italia will be the main goal. We had the Tour in mind for a long time, but the Giro has a great track next year. I love Italy and the race, and that is why I will mainly focus on the Giro. We will see what we are going to do after the Giro. But normally I will also go to the Tour. "
 
Tim Booth said:
another Giro Tour double attempt
Sunweb has uploaded a video on Twitter, in which Dumoulin - who is currently at training camp - addresses his choice.
"This is the time to share good news regarding my program for the coming season. After having consulted for weeks, we have decided that the Giro d'Italia will be the main goal. We had the Tour in mind for a long time, but the Giro has a great track next year. I love Italy and the race, and that is why I will mainly focus on the Giro. We will see what we are going to do after the Giro. But normally I will also go to the Tour. "
Smart decision.

It also likely makes both the Giro and Tour less exciting


But then again

Dumoulin "I can't ride 2 GTs every year"

Also Dumoulin "Let's do Giro/Tour again
 
Re:

yaco said:
A wise decision by Dumoulin - He'll get a big bonus from the 3 ITT's - He's an undeniable favorite for the Giro.
Yes you would think so. Richie now gets his chance in the Tour........okay I couldn't resist. Still should be a good battle for the Tour podium. Roglic should be up there again, Movistar, Yates, who knows ? The usual suspects. The race will be more interesting of course if Sky has some problems or if Froome shows some deterioration. If Thomas can repeat what he did in 2018 he will go close again.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
yaco said:
A wise decision by Dumoulin - He'll get a big bonus from the 3 ITT's - He's an undeniable favorite for the Giro.
Yes you would think so. Richie now gets his chance in the Tour........okay I couldn't resist. Still should be a good battle for the Tour podium. Roglic should be up there again, Movistar, Yates, who knows ? The usual suspects. The race will be more interesting of course if Sky has some problems or if Froome shows some deterioration. If Thomas can repeat what he did in 2018 he will go close again.
I am running MS and S.Yates goes to the TDF - Can't see him beating Dumoulin in the Giro or in fact Nibali - Of course the parcours for the Giro is perfect for Porte but of course he will stupidly ride the TDF - Seems like the the GC field will be of similar strength in the Giro and the TDF - Reckon the TDF could be a bit soft - Can Froome retain his current level ? Can Thomas back it up ? Will Roglic take another step forward ? And of course the high altitude may have an impact.
 
I mean I should be happy if some of the strongest riders ride my favorite gt but ugh this really feels like another year of resignation and everyone agreeing to Froome winning his fifth tour. I mean who are gonna be froome's main rivals? A guy coming from the giro, his own teammate and some underachieving Movistar climber? Even Yates might go to the giro which leaves us with Roglic as probably the most dangerous man and although I like Roglic, there still are higher caliber gc riders than him

Edit: I forgot about Porte but then again, well, he's Porte
 

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