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Tom Zirbel

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SeventhSon said:
If you want to know about his case--just read what he tells you

LOL. You're doing Zirbel more harm than good. Coming on message boards and saying stupid stuff like that, well, makes you look foolish. Like anyone who knows anything about cycling's going to say "Oh, he says he's clean, so I believe it."

Look, he may be clean, but nobody's going to just take his word for it.
 
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Actually, these posts DO NOT do Zirbel any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that several of the keypad cowboys spill on here. For the record, Tom googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because he really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, but many have chosen to swallow "positive A&B = doper" mindset.

Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.
 
SeventhSon said:
Actually, these posts DO NOT do Zirbel any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that several of the keypad cowboys spill on here. For the record, Tom googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because he really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, but many have chosen to swallow "positive A&B = doper" mindset.

Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.

If the A sample tests positive and the B sample tests positive, then guess what, it is in his system (ie. he took it). Whether he meant to or not really doesn't matter except for the fact that the positive threshold is high enough that he would have had to "accidentally" ingest a whole lot of DHEA to actually test positive. He should have gone for the "I was depressed" defense.
 
SeventhSon said:
Actually, these posts DO NOT do Zirbel any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that several of the keypad cowboys spill on here. For the record, Tom googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because he really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, but many have chosen to swallow "positive A&B = doper" mindset.

Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.

The first thing they could do is use supplements from Belgium, Norway, France or Swizterland.
Food supplement test results

Country No. tested No.'positive' % 'positive'
Netherlands 31 8 25.80%
Austria 22 5 22.70%
UK 37 7 18.90%
USA 240 45 18.80%
Italy 35 5 14.30%
Spain 29 4 13.80%
Germany 129 15 11.60%
Belgium 30 2 6.70%
France 30 2 6.70%
Norway 30 1 3.30%
Switzerland 13 - -
Sweden 6 - -
Hungary 2 - -
Total 634 94 14.80%
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=taintedsupplements
 

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SeventhSon said:
Actually, these posts DO NOT do Zirbel any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that several of the keypad cowboys spill on here. For the record, Tom googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because he really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, but many have chosen to swallow "positive A&B = doper" mindset.

Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.
Its not just someone saying it ............it is WADA, and they also have a provision for reducing a ban if someone can prove that their positive was from a contaminated source.

ARTICLE 21: ADDITIONAL ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF ATHLETES AND OTHER PERSONS
21.1 Roles and Responsibilities of Athletes
21.1.3 To take responsibility, in the context of antidoping,
for what they ingest and use.

"However, depending
on the unique facts of a particular
case, any of the referenced
illustrations could result in a reduced
sanction based on No Significant Fault
or Negligence. (For example, reduction
may well be appropriate in illustration
(a) if the Athlete clearly establishes
that the cause of the positive test
was contamination in a common
multiple vitamin purchased from
a source with no connection to
Prohibited Substances and the
Athlete exercised care in not taking
other nutritional supplements.)"
 
A

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SeventhSon said:
Actually, these posts DO NOT do Zirbel any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that several of the keypad cowboys spill on here. For the record, Tom googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because he really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, but many have chosen to swallow "positive A&B = doper" mindset.

Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.

Actually, these posts DO NOT do us any harm or good. You overestimate your impact. It's just a good chance for me to clean up after the trash talk that you spill on here. For the record, I googled DHEA the day he got the USADA notice, because I really didn't know much at all about it. What I've told you is correct, he tested positive for the drug.

Neither I nor anyone else here have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Our budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say everyone should know the contents of the things they are putting in their body. Its called personal responsibility, Tom needs to get some if he ever wants to soar to the heights you seem to think he will.
 
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You're funny, AND you post a lot.Repeat.

Another shining source of advice.

It takes no talent whatsoever to sit on the curb and ridicule the people in the parade.
 
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SeventhSon said:
You're funny, AND you post a lot.Repeat.

Another shining source of advice.

It takes no talent whatsoever to sit on the curb and ridicule the people in the parade.
SeventhSon, I think you are misdirecting anger. The sport has effectively indicted TZ, not a member of this board in invective or libel or skepticism.

The sport is rotten with the PED culture. And the lies come out of that. The fans have heard stories like Tyler Hamilton's chimera and Floyd's two draught beers and a shot of Jack. The liers now have thrown the pall of guilt over EZ before he even utters a word. If the guy was smart, he would recognise that his cards were dealt, and how to go from there. He may have thought professing an innocence, may give him a better chance in non-cycling life, whereas if he admitted doping, he would have been seen as unethical. None of this presumes whether he took DHEA with the intention of doping. It just acknowledges the realpolitik.

So I would hold the vitriol for the sport and the culture. Not a poster who refused to believe TZ. Who in their right mind, should be expected to believe a cyclist who has given a positive sample.

Ofcourse, principles of natural justice and due process are not considered, in cycling fora where opinions are first proffered. If TZ never took DHEA with intent, I wish him all the luck in his future career, and am sorry he was a victim of the ADA enforcement that cannot even prosecute StrongArm.
 
SeventhSon said:
Neither the teams nor the riders have the money to pay labs to test everything they eat & drink. Their budgets aren't that big. You cannot go by what's on the labels either-tests have proven that. Contamination happens. It's very easy for someone to say a pro should know this or that about what he's injested, but reality is quite different.

A decade or so ago, and this would have been a reasonable defence. However, while it may have been the reason for the positive (although I doubt it), it is no longer a reasonable defence. There are too many products out there that actually go to lengths to prove they are contaminent free. Pros know the risks, especially with supplements.
 
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Blackcat, you make a good point. But, I am enjoying it, and I am exposing some folks to the truth that they are not getting anywhere else. Sadly, most of them have already made up their minds based on previous cases. Tom's not Floyd, or Tyler, nor any of the others. He's certainly not going to admit to doping, any more than he'll admit to whacking Jimmy Hoffa. Almost all of the accurate info on here has come from Tom's own interviews and his blog. Thank you.
 
blackcat said:
SeventhSon, I think you are misdirecting anger. The sport has effectively indicted TZ, not a member of this board in invective or libel or skepticism.

The sport is rotten with the PED culture. And the lies come out of that. The fans have heard stories like Tyler Hamilton's chimera and Floyd's two draught beers and a shot of Jack. The liers now have thrown the pall of guilt over EZ before he even utters a word. If the guy was smart, he would recognise that his cards were dealt, and how to go from there. He may have thought professing an innocence, may give him a better chance in non-cycling life, whereas if he admitted doping, he would have been seen as unethical. None of this presumes whether he took DHEA with the intention of doping. It just acknowledges the realpolitik.

So I would hold the vitriol for the sport and the culture. Not a poster who refused to believe TZ. Who in their right mind, should be expected to believe a cyclist who has given a positive sample.

Ofcourse, principles of natural justice and due process are not considered, in cycling fora where opinions are first proffered. If TZ never took DHEA with intent, I wish him all the luck in his future career, and am sorry he was a victim of the ADA enforcement that cannot even prosecute StrongArm.

I wish him well in his future whether he took DHEA with intent or without, as either way he didn't do anything that his competition didn't do as well.
 
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SeventhSon said:
You're funny, AND you post a lot.Repeat.

Another shining source of advice.

It takes no talent whatsoever to sit on the curb and ridicule the people in the parade.

You're not funny AND you don't post about anything but Tom.Repeat

Another shining source of obfuscation.

It takes no talent whatsoever to come here and give us the "It wasn't him. It was a mistake. Somebody is trying to get him. Maybe someone slipped into his drink. If he says he is innocent, then he must be even though the sanctioning bodies disagree." Prison if full of people who will tell you they didn't do it.
 
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Yup. And I post about Tom cuz I know what I'm talking about. I'll never get to 4,000, but I've helped you raise your count.

obfuscation--that's a good one.

You just misquoted me four times repeat.
 

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SeventhSon said:
Blackcat, you make a good point. But, I am enjoying it, and I am exposing some folks to the truth that they are not getting anywhere else. Sadly, most of them have already made up their minds based on previous cases. Tom's not Floyd, or Tyler, nor any of the others. He's certainly not going to admit to doping, any more than he'll admit to whacking Jimmy Hoffa. Almost all of the accurate info on here has come from Tom's own interviews and his blog. Thank you.

While it may satisfy you to accept the statements made by the rider from his blog - I prefer the findings of an impartial body like the USADA

Tom had DHEA in his system - as confirmed by his A & B samples. He received a 2 year suspension - he has accepted that, even though if he could prove a supplement was tainted he would receive a lesser suspension.

What "truth" have you exposed that "we are not getting anywhere else"?
 
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SeventhSon said:
Blackcat, you make a good point. But, I am enjoying it, and I am exposing some folks to the truth that they are not getting anywhere else.

I must have missed this "Truth Exposing" could you repost it?
 
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USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.
 
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SeventhSon said:
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.

O - M - E - R - T - A

one word buddy.


SeventhSon said:
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had difficulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.

I've had a few post competition tests, if you cannot provide the sample they just sit you down with a jug of water and wait until you can provide a sample.

Anyway, dehydration would only make a difference to HCT in Blood Samples, not DHEA in urine...
 
SeventhSon said:
USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you "The Floyd Defense".
 
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SeventhSon said:
USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.

Look, I agree. It sucks that Tom tested positive. He is a good guy who was on a roll. It was great to see him make it to the Pro Tour and I was looking forward to seeing him race the classics......but you are hurting, not helping, him with this rant. Some helpful advice

Don't obfuscate How long it took for him to pee, that he passed other tests, None of this explains his positive.

Don't play clueless Tom is a Pro. He lives in Boulder. He knows what DHEA is. One of the more *** things that Landis said was he had never heard of doping in cycling and that Testosterone did not help recovery. Playing stupid only hurts.

If he went to Google it then he would have seen the rumors that it might be in some supliments. Start digging through your trash. Walk over to Moninger's house and ask him how he did it. Hire his lawyer.

Rules are rules The rules do not take into account that Tom is a hard working nice guy with a clean reputation. Every athlete gets the same deal, Reduction if you tell who your supplier is, confession, or a tainted bottle of vitamins. It is not a conspiracy, the rules are there in writing.

Don't question the lab It is the worst thing you can do. By questioning the time frame and saying that there is "Something wrong with the lab" you are inferring conspiracy to sink Tom. You are welcome to use this tactic....but do not expect it to work on anyone but the few remaining guys who "Believe Tyler"
 
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Hugh Januss said:
I wish him well in his future whether he took DHEA with intent or without, as either way he didn't do anything that his competition didn't do as well.
damn straight. He probably gave up a bit on the PED v PED equation to the guys in Cali and then Worlds.

I was looking forward to him at Garmin. Tho the Canuck Svein Tuck was a flop this year.
 
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Hugh Januss said:
This is the inherent problem with trying to have a seperate doping and racing section. Inevitably almost any pro cycling discussion (unless between LA fanboys, or others who don't know what's going on) will touch on the doping question.
just posted the same thing Huge Rectum, but in the doping forum.