Too many cogs?

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Was talking to a Shimano rep lately about the 14 speed cassette that has been in development for a while now. Alluded to by our own James Huang in this article a couple of years ago; http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/campagnolo-shimano-and-fsa-for-2009-and-beyond-16947

I've seen the photos of the prototypes and the wheel looks terrible, basically a really exaggerated dish to make room for more cogs. I think this is the one thing that's holding not just Shimano, but everybody back about stuffing too many gears back there, because it takes a major redesign of the wheel without making the chain so thin it resembles a shoelace.

Here's my question to all the industry or tech minded people out there. Isn't the idea to make a lightweight internally geared hub to achieve a non-dished, or minimal dished rear wheel? From every standpoint, wheel builder to end consumer, this makes more sense since non-dished wheels are much more stable, stronger, last longer, and easier to build, so you'd think the goal would be to get rid of the rear derailleur in the future.. yes/no/thoughts?

 

[Fred Thistle]

Revert to single speed racing with flip/flops for the mountains.


Then we'd get african nations being competitive

yeah, yeah- it'd kill the industry- but the racing would be as cool as ever

As a great competitor once wrote
it's not about the bike

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Not what I was talking about, .. but anyway.

 

[Fred Thistle]

well... what i meant- Yeah, too many cogs- sorry you didn't get it.

if you really wanna discuss internals the peak at the moment is the Rohloff.

I have ridden them a fair bit...as well as sachs super 7's, penta sports and the newer Nexus'

They all drag. They are all heavy.
No doubt manufacturers will try to move us on to a new, more expensive, less serviceable item... but quite frankly, do we have time before we all die of greenhouse gases- have you looked inside a Rohoff hub- It's like a watch in there

20 years then maybe

wheel strength isn't really the issue anymore is it- it's weight

 

[bc_hills]

Is there a real advantage to a 14 cog cassette? Give the average rider 4 or 5 extra gears and he just has 4 or 5 more gears he doesn't know how to use.

But seriously, I'd go for an internally geared hub if it could be done at no weight disadvantage. Better drivetrain and less maintenance... is it even a question? Although if we got rid of the derailleur there would be an eventual hipster "deraillie" fad...

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I understand the weight issue that arises, thing is that a PowerTap is almost 500g, and a lot of people race them because the center of the wheel means nothing to rotational weight which is much more important. So, I think an internally geared hub at a reasonable weight could come to fruition, more so than totally changing the design of the wheel. I wish there were some spy photos on the web of this extreme dish so you could see what I'm talking about, but Shimano is pretty good at keeping these things under lock and key. It's ugly to say the least.

 

[lostintime]

All these gears gone by and manufacturers have painted themselves into a corner. Where do they go from here?

14? That's quite absurd and has little, if any practical use. I suppose they'll try to push a complete redesign of bikes to handle this.

Heck, I'm satisfied with 7. That's why I've stuck with FW's !

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

All these gears gone by and manufacturers have painted themselves into a corner. Where do they go from here?

14? That's quite absurd and has little, if any practical use. I suppose they'll try to push a complete redesign of bikes to handle this.

Heck, I'm satisfied with 7. That's why I've stuck with FW's !

See, that's the thing. We were all saying "absurd" when we were all on 7-8 speed and 10 speed spy photos from Campy were causing all the ruckus. Since my profession needs me to stay current with tech I need to know that 14 speed cassettes are totally overkill, like we all know that they are.

So have we reached a plateau as far as gearing goes? I don't see it going further than 12 without major redesign to rear wheels.

 

[krebs303]

Thanks I've been thinking that sticking more cogs in the back has about maxed out
I find CVP (continuously variable planetary) might be a viable solution if it could be made light enough.

continuously variable planetary (CVP) transmission for human-powered and motor-powered vehicles and machines

Check out the demo

 

[dajonker]

Internal hub gears and pretty much every other gear system have much higher friction than a derailleur system. No professional racer would ever race on it, thus pretty much nobody would ever race on it.
Those Nuvinci continuously variable transmissions have enormeous friction and are very unreliable.

 

[the vagabond]

I prefer 9-speed

6 was better than 5, 7 better than 6, 8 than 7, 9 than 8. And that was the end of it for me. I rode 10-speed for 3 years but now am back to 9 - had a hard time keeping 10 in tune, didn't like the assymetry of not having the middle gear, and the parts were too expensive.

 

[Wallace]

See, that's the thing. We were all saying "absurd" when we were all on 7-8 speed and 10 speed spy photos from Campy were causing all the ruckus. Since my profession needs me to stay current with tech I need to know that 14 speed cassettes are totally overkill, like we all know that they are.

So have we reached a plateau as far as gearing goes? I don't see it going further than 12 without major redesign to rear wheels.

I have Record 10 on my road bike and Centaur 10 on my cross. I've been running Campy on my bikes since the mid-80s (with a brief flirtation with Mavic in the early 90s--they had a very nice gruppo before they went electronic) and, like most cyclists I know, have had no problem up-grading to the various changes in cassettes. And I've also found Record 10 to be the smoothest, easiest to set-up and most reliable group I've ever had on my bike.

But like a lot of cyclists, they lost me with the 11 speed. The new gear is too much of a Spinal Tap joke, and the non-compatibility is a huge draw back. I think that was the stupidest thing Campy has ever done. With other changes in the past you could change a little gizmo in the ergo lever (which I did from 8 to 9) and you were fine. Now you've got to buy the whole %$#*! gruppo--shifters, derailleur, and even the crankset--if you want to run the latest stuff. I know a lot of ****ed off Campy owners. The guys I know who have the 11 love the shape of the new shifters and rhapsodize about the smoothness and efficiency of the groups, but I haven't heard anyone say that the extra gear makes the slightest difference at all. I wouldn't surprised if Campy slowly goes back to ten, by coming out with a revamped record 10 (with all the attendant publicity) and slowly phasing out the eleven. The whole "11 speed Groupset test" campaign certainly seems like a desperate move to me.

When you factor in the whole non-compatibility issue, the lack of enthusiasm over the extra cog, and how much smoother the new Dura-Ace Electric is than even the new Super-Record (although the price for electric is so high that even the rich Microsoft weenies in Seattle won't consider buying it--but like all new technology, it'll come down, and then Campy will have a serious problem), Mr. Campagnolo really needs to rethink his product and marketing strategies.

In short, I don't know what the new developments in cycling technology will be, but I'd be very surprised--and, like a lot of people--very disappointed--if it's more cogs.

 

[lostintime]

See, that's the thing. We were all saying "absurd" when we were all on 7-8 speed and 10 speed spy photos from Campy were causing all the ruckus. Since my profession needs me to stay current with tech I need to know that 14 speed cassettes are totally overkill, like we all know that they are.

So have we reached a plateau as far as gearing goes? I don't see it going further than 12 without major redesign to rear wheels.

I can't see it going any further either. The cycling industry is like a machine .... it needs to be fed by more innovation. Weather this innovation is of any value to the public is another question.

There's the rub for the public and the people that sell it. We all know XX speeds are not needed, but if this is what the industry is manufacturing, and one needs to buy or sell parts for bikes..... what do you do? It's a real conundrum .

To me , this is where money making has gone awry. It's one thing to make parts to serve a purpose( everyday cycling needs of the public and such), but when upping the next guy (Shimano V Campy) just to make more dollars or market share becomes the norm .... we are nothing but pawns. . . . which we have become. The public goes along with it.

Damm, can't anyone(public or manufacturer) be satisfied with what works and not feel the obsession to change it ? Don't tell us we extra gears because it makes cycling more efficient and all that mumbo jumbo. We're human beings ..... not machines ...... so don't treat us that way.

 

[r.avens]

Not what I was talking about, .. but anyway.

I love the aesthetic of a chainguard (and also the utility of how clean it helps to keep the drivetrain), and chain guards on cassettes look awful because of the rd and amount of horizontal movement from gear shifts. But I love the utility of the gears.

Internal hubs offer the best of both worlds with one huge drawback, weight as well as some other drawbacks like lack of easy servicing. According to my lbs, ya' got a problem an internal hub, and back to the mfr it goes. It seems like a rather small drawback (so long as i don't have a mechanical 50 miles from nowhere). The weight of the hub needs to be addressed and I will be satisfied.

 

[ergmonkey]

I just got home from the grocery store where I saw men's razors being sold with five blades on them. Man, is that stupid.

I must say, though, that while there must be a limit on the utility of adding cogs, too, I don't think eleven is past that limit. I love racing with an eleven-tooth for tailwinds and downhills, but I am a big rider (84kg) who likes to spin while climbing--so it's also nice to have a twenty-five in back. I don't know how many of you have raced on an 11-25 casette, but it always seems to have gaps in all of the wrong places for me. My first two thoughts when 11-speed came out were: 1) will they make an 11-21 straight block for tt's? and 2) I can't wait to just add a 25 to my normal 11-23 cassette instead of always debating whether to lose the 25 or have to deal with that awful gap in the tempo range of gears.

Also, a benefit of the 11-25 eleven speed cassette is that you can run a 42-tooth inner ring for tighter ratios while still getting roughly the same low gear as a 39x23. So, I'm not quite sure what some guys are talking about when they complain about these extra gears that no ordinary rider can effectively use.

P.S. Eleven speed electric is going to be the balls.

 

[St. Elia]

I have Record 10 on my road bike and Centaur 10 on my cross. I've been running Campy on my bikes since the mid-80s (with a brief flirtation with Mavic in the early 90s--they had a very nice gruppo before they went electronic) and, like most cyclists I know, have had no problem up-grading to the various changes in cassettes. And I've also found Record 10 to be the smoothest, easiest to set-up and most reliable group I've ever had on my bike.

But like a lot of cyclists, they lost me with the 11 speed. The new gear is too much of a Spinal Tap joke, and the non-compatibility is a huge draw back. I think that was the stupidest thing Campy has ever done. With other changes in the past you could change a little gizmo in the ergo lever (which I did from 8 to 9) and you were fine. Now you've got to buy the whole %$#*! gruppo--shifters, derailleur, and even the crankset--if you want to run the latest stuff. I know a lot of ****ed off Campy owners. The guys I know who have the 11 love the shape of the new shifters and rhapsodize about the smoothness and efficiency of the groups, but I haven't heard anyone say that the extra gear makes the slightest difference at all. I wouldn't surprised if Campy slowly goes back to ten, by coming out with a revamped record 10 (with all the attendant publicity) and slowly phasing out the eleven. The whole "11 speed Groupset test" campaign certainly seems like a desperate move to me.

When you factor in the whole non-compatibility issue, the lack of enthusiasm over the extra cog, and how much smoother the new Dura-Ace Electric is than even the new Super-Record (although the price for electric is so high that even the rich Microsoft weenies in Seattle won't consider buying it--but like all new technology, it'll come down, and then Campy will have a serious problem), Mr. Campagnolo really needs to rethink his product and marketing strategies.

In short, I don't know what the new developments in cycling technology will be, but I'd be very surprised--and, like a lot of people--very disappointed--if it's more cogs.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. You are basically saying that because the 11 isn't compatible with 10 you don't like it? You could have made that argument with 9 and 10 speeds regardless if it was shimano or Campy. This is not the only industry where backwards compatibility is an issue but if you are going to move forward some times these stapes are necessary don't you think or were you happy with windows 3.1? I upgraded last year from 8 ( a mix of old campy and shimano) to 11 (SR)). Having 11 speeds is not the reason I upgraded but was part of the package. I would think the same is true for most people, they get what ever has the best all around package. And BTW I love my campy sr 11 and the chain has over 12 000 km and still in good nic (I just measured it and it's still like new) The shifting is still great even though I haven't changed the cables in over a year.

As for the OP, I can't see the advantage of more rear cogs, like was said a 12 .... maybe. Look at other industries, computer for example. It use to be all the rage to have faster and faster processors ...3.7 ghtz is faster the 3.5 ghtz right? now it is how many cores you have quad core is better then dual core right?? Cameras, the more mega pixels the better right? 5 is better then 4 and so on. My point is as consumers get better educated about a product they start looking at other things and the whole package not just the gimmicks. For me personally gear range is important but not to the point where everything else is compromised.

 

[Fred Thistle]

I'm not sure I understand your argument. You are basically saying that because the 11 isn't compatible with 10 you don't like it?

Not everyone rides just one bike bought 'from the packet' so to speak.

Not everyone is able to keep up with the trends- some are even sentimental about their steeds!

I have multiple road bikes and multiple wheel sets that I interchange.

Ability to do this is hampered by incompatability... though it is possible with Jtek shiftmate adapters...they are great!!!

You don't have to move on with the times... so why bother disliking it...it's interesting at least..... though if you race 9spd its hard to get a spare from neutral service!

 

[St. Elia]

Not everyone rides just one bike bought 'from the packet' so to speak.

Not everyone is able to keep up with the trends- some are even sentimental about their steeds!

I have multiple road bikes and multiple wheel sets that I interchange.

Ability to do this is hampered by incompatability... though it is possible with Jtek shiftmate adapters...they are great!!!

You don't have to move on with the times... so why bother disliking it...it's interesting at least..... though if you race 9spd its hard to get a spare from neutral service!

Well of course, and as I said i had an 8 speed which was fine but decided to take the plunge and get a bike I could actually get spare parts for. But the comment I made was about someone complaining about the change from 10 to 11. My point is, it is the same as when we changed from 5 to 6 and 6 to 7 and so on. As far as wheel sets, well you could always change the cogs, not a huge deal, unless you have a wheel set with a free wheel And again if you have a bunch of 8 speed bikes and all of a sudden you start to mix in a 9 you have the same problem.

Don't get me wrong, most old good bikes are all we really need but to say that campy is going to go out of business because they went to 11 speed seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Anyway, I'm always looking at what is new and cool but not buying very often. I don't see the point of 14 speed but they don't seem to ask me when they come out with this stuff

 

[Black Dog]

But like a lot of cyclists, they lost me with the 11 speed. The new gear is too much of a Spinal Tap joke, and the non-compatibility is a huge draw back. I think that was the stupidest thing Campy has ever done. With other changes in the past you could change a little gizmo in the ergo lever (which I did from 8 to 9) and you were fine. Now you've got to buy the whole %$#*! gruppo--shifters, derailleur, and even the crankset--if you want to run the latest stuff.

Well, actually you can upgrade by getting new shifters, chain, and Cassette. Everything else will work fine. This is not official but a lot of people are running this set up and have had no issues. As for Campy dropping the ball, I agree that 11 is not really any better than ten and the industry should move towards compatibility not away from it. However, campy offers it new stuff at the same price as the previous model. Look at shimano and you will see that their prices have gone up but the quality and durability have not (I am not saying that their stuff is bad). At least campy have kept prices in check and offer equal performance and durability throughout most of their line, if you want Super Record you are saving some weight and getting some status, but it will not last longer or work any better than Chorus. Is Ultegra as good as Dura-ace. At least campy tries to make all components serviceable and makes spare parts available, that is real backwards compatibility. I do not know enough about SRAM to comment on value for dollar throughout their line up. Can anyone comment on this?

 

[Aapjes]

I'm waiting for road bikes to switch to 135 mm OLD, just like MTB's. That should leave plenty of room for big cassettes.

 

[Fred Thistle]

I'm waiting for road bikes to switch to 135 mm OLD, just like MTB's. That should leave plenty of room for big cassettes.

but the aerodynamics will suffer with such a wide rear end!!!

 

[bridgeman]

I remember going from a 5 to a 6 cluster. But Jobst Brandt thought I was stupid when I told him I was going to 7 speed.

Now I can't live without my Campy 11. Very happy with all aspects of it. I would say that at this time 11 is about at the point of diminishing returns, though I bet a 12 will be on the market soon.

I could have use an extra gear on Page Mill Road today. The 23 wasn't cutting it.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

6 was better than 5, 7 better than 6, 8 than 7, 9 than 8. And that was the end of it for me. I rode 10-speed for 3 years but now am back to 9 - had a hard time keeping 10 in tune, didn't like the assymetry of not having the middle gear, and the parts were too expensive.

+1

My training bike is still 9spd and I prefer the shifting of it, I even raced on it the other week too (one guy in that race DNFd because his 10spd wasn't shifting properly, another dropped a chain early on a climb, ...). 9spd is so easy to maintain so that it shifts to the right gear every time.

And I like having a middle gear as well, dammit!

 

[ustabe]

I'll be interested in more cogs when someone figures out out to make one with 11.5 teeth.

 

[ergmonkey]

I'll be interested in more cogs when someone figures out out to make one with 11.5 teeth.

A 53x11.5 gives you a ratio of 4.6087
A 55x12 will be just smaller (4.5833)
A 56x12 will be just bigger (4.6667)

Campy eleven speed will allow you to run a 55/44 up front; 12-27 in the rear. The 44x27 is a smaller gear than a 39x23. So, there you go: "11.5 tooth" gearing, with the added benefits of tighter ratios and more reliable front shifting thanks to the big front rings with only 11-teeth difference between them.