Total Disillusionment

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El Pistolero said:
...

Fishy Cancellara performances:

- Mendrisio WC
- Strade Bianche
- Beijing Olympics
Beijing?

Interesting top 15. If Cancellera's performance was fishy, how do these others compare?

Levi and Dave Z said they stopped doping in 2006. Cadel never doped. Contador was framed. McQuaid says that there is no doping in the UK, the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany. Canadians don't dope, and they were on a clean team...

By that reasoning, they were all clean including Cancellara. Do you have reason to think differently?

Rank Rider Time
1 Fabian Cancellara (SUI) 1:02:11
2 Gustav Larsson (SWE) 1:02:44
3 Levi Leipheimer (USA) 1:03:21
4 Alberto Contador (ESP) 1:03:29
5 Cadel Evans (AUS) 1:03:34
6 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) 1:04:37
7 Svein Tuft (CAN) 1:04:39
8 Michael Rogers (AUS) 1:04:46
9 Stef Clement (NED) 1:04:59
10 Robert Gesink (NED) 1:05:02
11 Steve Cummings (GBR) 1:05:07
12 David Zabriskie (USA) 1:05:17
13 Stefan Schumacher (GER) 1:05:25
14 Bert Grabsch (GER) 1:05:26
15 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA) 1:05:36
16 Ryder Hesjedal (CAN) 1:05:42
17 Rein Taaramäe (EST) 1:05:47
18 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) 1:05:52
19 Chris Anker Sørensen (DEN) 1:05:55
20 Denis Menchov (RUS) 1:06:10

Dave.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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El Pistolero said:
That's a very hilly profile you're showing there. One where heavy riders should not be able to perform normally.
So, Dirk de Wolf is disqualified for his Liege win by the great cycling analist El Pistolero. I knew it all along, just needed the proof! Grazie mille.

El Pistolero said:
I'm clearly talking about other races like the E3 Harelbeke, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Milan-San Remo, Strade Bianche, Olympics, Mendrisio, etc
El Pistolero said:
Fishy Cancellara performances:

- Mendrisio WC
- Strade Bianche
- Beijing Olympics
Your list is getting smaller and smaller. Your debating skills too.

Swim along Pistolero.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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D-Queued said:
Beijing?

Interesting top 15. If Cancellera's performance was fishy, how do these others compare?

Levi and Dave Z said they stopped doping in 2006. Cadel never doped. Contador was framed. Canadians don't dope, and they were on a clean team...

By that reasoning, they were all clean including Cancellara. Do you have reason to think differently?

Rank Rider Time
1 Fabian Cancellara (SUI) 1:02:11
2 Gustav Larsson (SWE) 1:02:44
3 Levi Leipheimer (USA) 1:03:21
4 Alberto Contador (ESP) 1:03:29
5 Cadel Evans (AUS) 1:03:34
6 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) 1:04:37
7 Svein Tuft (CAN) 1:04:39
8 Michael Rogers (AUS) 1:04:46
9 Stef Clement (NED) 1:04:59
10 Robert Gesink (NED) 1:05:02
11 Steve Cummings (GBR) 1:05:07
12 David Zabriskie (USA) 1:05:17
13 Stefan Schumacher (GER) 1:05:25
14 Bert Grabsch (GER) 1:05:26
15 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA) 1:05:36
16 Ryder Hesjedal (CAN) 1:05:42
17 Rein Taaramäe (EST) 1:05:47
18 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) 1:05:52
19 Chris Anker Sørensen (DEN) 1:05:55
20 Denis Menchov (RUS) 1:06:10

Dave.
I'm talking about the road race. Although I don't see many clean names in that list. Do you?

One thing's for sure though, all these riders don't weigh as much as Cancellara! That seems to be a very common thing in a lot of races.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Cecchini? Again, we had that already.
Riis has personal experience. Ah, that argument can be used in 2 ways.
The way you try. Or the other way, exactly because he has personal experience he wants his rider not to risk too much.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So, Dirk de Wolf is disqualified for his Liege win by the great cycling analist El Pistolero. I knew it all along, just needed the proof! Grazie mille.




Your list is getting smaller and smaller. Your debating skills too.

Swim along Pistolero.
Dirk de Wolf, what does he have to do with this? Do I think he's clean? No.

Man, you're debating skills make no sense you just bring up random names lol.

How about you stop posting and I'll keep swimming?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The fridge in the blue trees said:
Cecchini? Again, we had that already.
Riis has personal experience. Ah, that argument can be used in 2 ways.
The way you try. Or the other way, exactly because he has personal experience he wants his rider not to risk too much.
Yeah, Hamilton's book says something else though. ;)

Anyway, I'm out of here, have fun blaming evil Sky because only they dare to dope.
 
El Pistolero said:
I'm talking about the road race. Although I don't see many clean names in that list. Do you?

One thing's for sure though, all these riders don't weigh as much as Cancellara! That seems to be a very common thing in a lot of races.
I was squinting really hard. ;)

Try it. Might work for you too.

Dave.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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El Pistolero said:
Dirk de Wolf, what does he have to do with this? Do I think he's clean? No.

Man, you're debating skills make no sense you just bring up random names lol.

How about you stop posting and I'll keep swimming?
Your cycling knowledge is really bringing tears in my eyes, from laughter.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6v6d2_beijing-olympic-cycling_fun

I posted this before, watch from minute 10 onwards, and look how close Botero, Aers, Leipheimer and above all Gesink is.
Another one debunked Pistoleroo.

So, that leaves Mendrisio? What was the problem with that one again? Winning the TT?

I wouldnt be surprized when Cancellara got caught for using things a clean cyclist wouldnt take but your reasoning is that of a nine year's old. I bet I am not the first one that noticed this.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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What have you debunked? That Cancellara did better than climbers in a climber/hilly race?

You're not actually debunking anything, you're posting vids of races I've seen long ago already, but thanks for the reminder. ;)

And his two Ronde wins are still suspicious by the way. Just in case you forgot.
 
El Pistolero said:
Cancellara never tried in LBL, so who knows.
YOu seem to. Considering you ridiculed canc many times about lbl laughing that he would struggle to finish.

Of course now that the cancellara hate is being directed at attacking cancellara as a doping science project, all those opinions about how overrated canc is and how **** he is compared to Gilbert and Boonen, are being turned 180 degrees into him being some unbeatable Borg who could win on zoncolan with a tricycle if he wanted.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
YOu seem to. Considering you ridiculed canc many times about lbl laughing that he would struggle to finish.

Of course now that the cancellara hate is being directed at attacking cancellara as a doping science project, all those opinions about how overrated canc is and how **** he is compared to Gilbert and Boonen, are being turned 180 degrees into him being some unbeatable Borg who could win on zoncolan with a tricycle if he wanted.
Actually I said he would never be able to win both the cobbled classics and LBL, but if he gives up the cobbled classics yeah then. Competing in both Roubaix and LBL for the win is impossible, even with dope.

;)

Look at the weight of other riders at races like Mendrisio, Beijing Olympics, Strade Bianche, etc and you'll see that there is something not quite right in this picture. Of course, you'll just brush it off because you love to see him win.
 
El Pistolero said:
And if he wasn't 80kg+ at Mendrisio that still doesn't explain the fact how he totally dominated the FLAT time trial that year... You can't lose weight and not lose power. If you're clean.
Wiggins did that to a far greater extent yet according to you he's far less suspicious than cancellara and his performances are even understandable.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Wiggins did that to a far greater extent yet according to you he's far less suspicious than cancellara and his performances are even understandable.
Wiggo is also doping, but at least he has the excuse that he was focusing on track for most of his career and that he was an alcoholic(after 2004).

Honestly, Wiggins probably just started doping (seriously) later in his career than Cancellara. What is the greatest crime here? Doping your entire career or starting to dope (seriously) at a later point in your career? Because you seem to think Cancellara is the lesser criminal here? He really isn't. Consistency doesn't mean someone is clean...

I find his Tour win last year understandable, even if it was doped up:

- No Contador
- No Andy Schleck
- Samu Sanchez out because of crash
- Barely any HC mountain finish
- Lot's of mountains that suited his climbing style
- Lot's of time trials
- Ridiculously strong team
 
Apr 20, 2012
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El Pistolero said:
What have you debunked? That Cancellara did better than climbers in a climber/hilly race?

You're not actually debunking anything, you're posting vids of races I've seen long ago already, but thanks for the reminder. ;)

And his two Ronde wins are still suspicious by the way. Just in case you forgot.

You have been spotted. Take your pick.
Actually I said he would never be able to win both the cobbled classics and LBL, but if he gives up the cobbled classics yeah then.
He allready won the LBL of Italy, twice, or did he not? As a fatty weighing at least 80KG.

Tom would like the white streets.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Not sure what any of your "arguments"(if you can call it that) are supposed to prove here lol. Perhaps it's better if I just continue the discussion with Hitch and leave you alone lol. At least he doesn't post random names/links/images all the time.
 
wait a second, does fearless greg lemond= fabianbot145789?

the double standards of defending cancellara while attacking sky when in fact cancellara is just as dodgy, if not more, with the only difference between him and sky being that you like him is pretty funny

also dismissing every argument el pistolero makes as butthurt belgian is getting more then old.
 
El Pistolero said:
Look at the weight of other riders at races like Mendrisio, Beijing Olympics, Strade Bianche, etc and you'll see that there is something not quite right in this picture. Of course, you'll just brush it off because you love to see him win.
No I dint brush it off. Your brain seems to be confusing itself. Your argument last 10 pages is that cancellara dopes a lot more than anyone else.
You've suddenly decided not just that you can tell who is doping but that you can how much. You decided that since you dint like cancellara - rival of boonen , he must dope more than everyone else. Your arguments for this as others have pointed out have been inconsisten, weak and all over the place.

Btw you scoffed a few posts ago that the clinic attacks sky but has no problem with cancellara, which of course is not true sine there are 2 ongoing cancellara threads.

Anyway why don't you follow your own advice and go if not to the boonen (who according to you is a better cyclist than cancellara) thread then the Gilbert thread and give us your opinion on how a Jose ibraugen taus client managed to win every race he felt like over an entire season.

Or do you consider yourself too important to follow the same standards you demand of everyone else ?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
No I dint brush it off. Your brain seems to be confusing itself. Your argument last 10 pages is that cancellara dopes a lot more than anyone else.
You've suddenly decided not just that you can tell who is doping but that you can how much. You decided that since you dint like cancellara - rival of boonen , he must dope more than everyone else. Your arguments for this as others have pointed out have been inconsisten, weak and all over the place.

Btw you scoffed a few posts ago that the clinic attacks sky but has no problem with cancellara, which of course is not true sine there are 2 ongoing cancellara threads.

Anyway why don't you follow your own advice and go if not to the boonen (who according to you is a better cyclist than cancellara) thread then the Gilbert thread and give us your opinion on how a Jose ibraugen taus client managed to win every race he felt like over an entire season.

Or do you consider yourself too important to follow the same standards you demand of everyone else ?
Why didn't Chavanel win the Ronde then? Or Cavendish Milan-San Remo and Gent-Wevelgem? Or Terpstra Dwars door Vlaanderen? Or Stybar E3 Harelbeke? They didn't feel like winning this year? Only Boonen can realistically win those races for QS, proven once again(with the exception of Milan-San Remo, I'd rate Cav's chances higher there). And considering he won all those races multiple times before Jose Ibraugen doesn't really help your argument either. Though I have no doubt that he, like most team doctors, has been a big factor in the doping of cyclists. But as we have seen with Geert Leinders and Sky, him leaving would have zero effect on the performance of the team.

Yes I find an 82kg rider competing in very hilly races to be more suspicious than what Boonen is doing. Sue me. ;)

It's not inconsistent, but an opinion. When I see a big rider like Cancellara dropping a lightweight rider like let's say Greg van Avermaet on a steep relatively long hill then I can only look in disgust at what I'm seeing.

There's barely anyone posting in the Cancellara thread. You just decided to bump it up to claim Cancellara is not a doper after all because he won the Ronde van Vlaanderen.
 
El Pistolero said:
Why didn't Chavanel win the Ronde then? Or Cavendish Milan-San Remo and Gent-Wevelgem? Or Terpstra Dwars door Vlaanderen? Or Stybar E3 Harelbeke? They didn't feel like winning this year? Only Boonen can realistically win those races for QS, proven once again(with the exception of Milan-San Remo, I'd rate Cav's chances higher there). And considering he won all those races multiple times before Jose Ibraugen doesn't really help your argument either. Though I have no doubt that he, like most team doctors, has been a big factor in the doping of cyclists. But as we have seen with Geert Leinders and Sky, him leaving would have zero effect on the performance of the team.

Yes I find an 82kg rider competing in very hilly races to be more suspicious than what Boonen is doing. Sue me. ;)
What about Gilbert then? Boonen had won everything he won with Ibarguren before he worked with Ibarguren, fair enough.

Gilbert hadn't, had he?

To be honest, LBL there was no shock, not while the Schlecks raced so clearly to lose it was like a head to head between Bennati and Rojas. "No, sir, after you, I insist!" Flèche Wallonne, however, was pure domination. Since then, Gilbert hasn't been able to scale the same heights, and the one major one-day win he has since then is the Worlds, which just happened to have the decisive moments on the same climb as the one hilly Classic he'd already won before he worked with Ibarguren.

Gilbert, it would appear to me, is obviously a great talent who just happens to have likely doped at some point along the line; why, in your opinion, is the same not possible of Cancellara? Wasn't it Cipollini that said something along the lines of Basso being a big engine who doped, as opposed to di Luca just having doped?

I'm not even really sure what the argument has become here. It seems that there is mostly agreement that Cancellara is or has been using, but Pisti is of the opinion that he is come kind of chemically created golem transformed more ridiculously than Chris Froome (pointing at a specific time where this transformation happened despite clear palmarès evidence to the contrary, then retracting that himself by pointing at at least two points before then as amongst his most ridiculous performances) whereas some others seem to think Cancellara is a talented cyclist and a doper.

Maybe I've missed something, but I'm not really sure what resolution is even possible with an argument like this one - it's moving sideways more than Fernando Escartín in the Pyrenées.
 
El Pistolero said:
There's barely anyone posting in the Cancellara thread. You just decided to bump it up to claim Cancellara is not a doper after all because he won the Ronde van Vlaanderen.
No, I propped it up to say that he was a doper. Nice try though.


And when I said Ibraugen Taus i was talking about Gilbert not Boonen, see
the Gilbert thread and give us your opinion on how a Jose ibraugen taus client managed to win every race he felt like over an entire season.
So once again, if you believe everyone should be outraged about Cancellara why arent you practising what you preach and expressing your outrage at what Phil Gilbert did in 2011?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Besides FW, what race did Phil win in 2011 that was so strange for him to win? If he could really win every race he wanted don't you think he would've won Lombardia, San Remo and the Ronde as well?

Unlike Phil, Cancellara is still at a ridiculous level. Hence there's discussion about him.

And no, you bumped it up to say he was clean.
 
Sparticus is powerhouse, with all the potentiality that chemically enhanced sport affords. Though he's still a powerhouse, ideally suited to the cobbled climbs of Flanders. I mean we're not talking about Alpe d'Huez at 82 kg. Now that would be a sensational performance.
 
rhubroma said:
Sparticus is powerhouse, with all the potentiality that chemically enhanced sport affords. Though he's still a powerhouse, ideally suited to the cobbled climbs of Flanders. I mean we're not talking about Alpe d'Huez at 82 kg. Now that would be a sensational performance.
Not.

The coefficient of rolling resistance plays a huge part in speed on cobbles.

Heavier riders are disproportionately disadvantaged.

F = W * Crr

Then, add in the disproportionate disadvantage of climbing where gravity provides a geometric influence based upon weight.

Doing 'well' on the cobble climbs reflects a performance arguably above sensational.

Dave.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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D-Queued said:
Not.

The coefficient of rolling resistance plays a huge part in speed on cobbles.

Heavier riders are disproportionately disadvantaged.

F = W * Crr

Then, add in the disproportionate disadvantage of climbing where gravity provides a geometric influence based upon weight.

Doing 'well' on the cobble climbs reflects a performance arguably above sensational.

Dave.
So you mean a mountain climber would do better on the cobbles in Flanders?
 

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