Total Disillusionment

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Jul 16, 2010
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Pentacycle said:
Tony Martin has nothing to do with classics, as he lacks any talent for those.

You THINK Gilbert was cleaner than Cancellara - good arguing there. FDJ isn't really innocent either, and at Lotto Phil got even more stuff.

You call Fabian's progression a transformation, I call it maturing by gaining experience every year. Someone like Boonen had a lot of opportunities to race and train in the Flemish Ardennes from an early age on. That's why it's very special when a young 'foreigner' like Sagan or Langeveld are already performing at age 23.

And don't get started about Valverde. Replace Boonen with his name, and Sky boys by Cancellara in your post and magic happens.
Maybe because Tony is not on the same stuff as Cancellara? ;) I thought time trial talent is what makes Cancellara so good in classics? Apparently not...

Fabian was riding all the classics he can win from very early on. That Boonen had more opportunities is complete bull****, at least for their pro career. Cancellara did a top ten in Roubaix when he was still very young. Yet he all of a sudden gained more experience in 2010? He gained power in 2010, not experience. If you'd look at the numbers you'd see a big rise.

Langeveld isn't special so that part makes no sense. I see Dutch cyclists in the Flemish ardennes on a weekly basis by the way.

Oh and your last part makes no sense either.
 
JimmyFingers said:
EBH tried and failed to follow Canc/Sagan on the Kwaremont and sat in the back of the chasing pack after, and in the sprint for 4th ended up 17th.

Given he is one of the most talented riders on a team of nefarious, team-wide dopers, you would have thought he would be on the juice. And despite the fact Brailsford has talked about dominating the spring classics and holed the team up in Teide, where, as we all know, Wiggins and Froome and Porte and Rogers got their juice, some say he's the exception, he's the one that said no.

But surely joining the dots says Eddy is knee-deep in the Sky programme, so if riders are riding away from him with the ease they did, what does it say about their performance?

And for the record I think he's clean.
It's not like every rider was doping on Festina and Cofidis ;) EBH *could* be a Moncoutie. He could also ofc just not respond that well to dope. Who knows.
 
May 28, 2012
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El Pistolero said:
Maybe because Tony is not on the same stuff as Cancellara? ;)
No, Tony just can't handle cobbles and 200+ km distances. If he doped then he could be a classics contender. But at the same time he'd start winning TT's with a 2' advantage.

Fabian was riding all the classics he can win from very early on. That Boonen had more opportunities is complete bull****, at least for their pro career. Cancellara did a top ten in Roubaix when he was still very young. Yet he all of a sudden gained more experience in 2010? He gained power in 2010, not experience.
I was addressing their whole career, including juniors etc. Do you know if Boonen rode any races in the Flemish Ardennes when he was still a junior?

Langeveld isn't special so that part makes no sense.
Langeveld was special, in the sense that he was 10'' from winning his debut Tour of Flanders. I can't remember any other rider doing that. He hasn't become any better though, he needs a better team.

Oh and your last part makes no sense either.
Ty, I was trying to point out how Boonen may have been on the stuff from the moment he was a first year pro, and Cancellara didn't touch anything special until he started performing on the same level as Tom. Just as you were saying about Piti and Sky.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I notice NOONE is saying Fabian is clean. Or Boonen. Or Gilbert.

Yes, the thread is dragging on, but the argument being dragged out is comparing the improvements between riders based on their levels of doping or race strategy, not attempting to explain away performances as clean or excuse what a rider is saying in the press or mentioning some marginal gains BS.

There is NO disagreement these guys are doping.

None.

Fabian kicked Wiggins to the curb as a junior in a 23km TT.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Pentacycle said:
No, Tony just can't handle cobbles and 200+ km distances. If he doped then he could be a classics contender. But at the same time he'd start winning TT's with a 2' advantage.



I was addressing their whole career, including juniors etc. Do you know if Boonen rode any races in the Flemish Ardennes when he was still a junior?



Langeveld was special, in the sense that he was 10'' from winning his debut Tour of Flanders. I can't remember any other rider doing that. He hasn't become any better though, he needs a better team.



Ty, I was trying to point out how Boonen may have been on the stuff from the moment he was a first year pro, and Cancellara didn't touch anything special until he started performing on the same level as Tom. Just as you were saying about Piti and Sky.
It makes no sense because the evidence against Cancellara is there for all to see.

Boonen and Cancellara already know each other since they were juniors, they were rivals already back then. Boonen comes from the Kempen which is totally flat. And closer to the Netherlands than the Vlaamse Ardennen. He rode international races at the U23 like Paris-Tours and even LBL(was second there I think). Boonen actually had a good time trial back then.

Both Boonen and Cancellara rode in the Flemish Ardennes in their U23 years. Though Cancellara skipped most of his U23 years to ride for Mapei - a team with a heavy focus on classics.
 
May 28, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
I notice NOONE is saying Fabian is clean. Or Boonen. Or Gilbert.

Yes, the thread is dragging on, but the argument being dragged out is comparing the improvements between riders based on their levels of doping or race strategy, not attempting to explain away performances as clean or excuse what a rider is saying in the press or mentioning some marginal gains BS.

There is NO disagreement these guys are doping.

None.

Fabian kicked Wiggins to the curb as a junior in a 23km TT.
Junior results are never relevant at the pro's. Wiggo still had an enormous room for improvement, while Fabian was already close to his best.

Sure, there must be some riders racing clean, but how should we know?
 
El Pistolero said:
Like I said, Tony Martin is a better time trial specialist than Cancellara yet he never pulls ridiculous stunts like that.

)
Do you actually watch any races or just check the results:confused:

1st of all 1 could argue Martin did pull of something similar in Beijing.

2nd of all, please explain how Boonen who is NOT a time trialist, manages to pull this off.

3rdly 12k in a mass start race at the end of 250k of cobbles, is different from 12k time trial because people are exhausted and they are willing to risk exhaustion in order to stay with another rider who can offer slipstream.

weaker riders (even slightly weaker ones) spend more energy up climbs to keep the same pace. They therefore end up being more tired after the climb and losing more time than if it was a straight up time trial.

Do you see how that works?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Do you actually watch any races or just check the results:confused:

1st of all 1 could argue Martin did pull of something similar in Beijing.

2nd of all, please explain how Boonen who is NOT a time trialist, manages to pull this off.

3rdly 12k in a mass start race at the end of 250k of cobbles, is different from 12k time trial because people are exhausted and they are willing to risk exhaustion in order to stay with another rider who can offer slipstream.

weaker riders (even slightly weaker ones) spend more energy up climbs to keep the same pace. They therefore end up being more tired after the climb and losing more time than if it was a straight up time trial.

Do you see how that works?
And Cancellara is somehow the only one capable of doing what he does. No I don't see how that works. In a clean peloton.

Are you really going to compare Beijing to European classics?

Did Boonen solo last year in E3 Harelbeke and the Ronde van Vlaanderen? I'll give you Roubaix and as I said before here already, it's equally ridiculous as Cancellara's solo in 2010. Why do you keep bringing it up then? I'm clearly talking about other races like the E3 Harelbeke, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Milan-San Remo, Strade Bianche, Olympics, Mendrisio, etc

I wish Boonen could solo for 40km in SB, but he's 82kg and therefor too heavy for a race like that. Yet Cancellara can fight with lightweights there, yeah right lol... Suspicious!
 
El Pistolero said:
And Cancellara is somehow the only one capable of doing what he does. No I don't see how that works. In a clean peloton.
The only one? Boonen soloed for longer than Canc. And the chase behind Canc in '10 wasn't really that impressive, with everyone but Boonen riding for 2nd. And last time I checked Boonen has also won Ronde solo.

So what is it that Canc has done on cobbles that Tommeke hasn't?
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Netserk said:
It's not like every rider was doping on Festina and Cofidis ;) EBH *could* be a Moncoutie. He could also ofc just not respond that well to dope. Who knows.
"Pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers"
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Netserk said:
The only one? Boonen soloed for longer than Canc. And the chase behind Canc in '10 wasn't really that impressive, with everyone but Boonen riding for 2nd. And last time I checked Boonen has also won Ronde solo.

So what is it that Canc has done on cobbles that Tommeke hasn't?
Yeah, Cancellara is the only rider in the peloton that you can't give one meter or you never see him back(no matter what the profile of the race is, except mountains).

Of course there are other riders that have done an occasional solo in a classic, but they're nothing like the ones Cancellara pulls frequently. 2009 Ronde versus 2010 Ronde for example. Or this year's Ronde.
 
El Pistolero said:
Yeah, Cancellara is the only rider in the peloton that you can't give one meter or you never see him back(no matter what the profile of the race is, except mountains).

Of course there are other riders that have done an occasional solo in a classic, but they're nothing like the ones Cancellara pulls frequently. 2009 Ronde versus 2010 Ronde for example. Or this year's Ronde.
Ronde '11?

I agree that he most likely is a doper, and probably amongst the heavy ones, but he isn't anywhere close to Sky.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
You asked how come Tony Martin doesnt solo out from far.

I showed you an example where he did.

You say its not the classics.

Well he doesnt ****ing do the classics does he.
Yeah, but some people here said it's not surprising to see the "best time trial specialist of his generation" to do ridiculous solos in every classic he enters. I mean if that's the case then why doesn't Tony Martin do the same? He did classics, he just sucked at them. Even though he's better at time trials, especially the long ones, than Cancellara.

Oh and Beijing was Tony Martin's first road win since the Tour de Suisse in 2009 lol.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Pentacycle said:
Junior results are never relevant at the pro's. Wiggo still had an enormous room for improvement, while Fabian was already close to his best.
:confused:

You know this about Wiggins and Fabian how!?

Wiggins had just medaled on the track in the event that predicts GT greatness. :rolleyes:

Pentacycle said:
Sure, there must be some riders racing clean, but how should we know?
They're not winning?
 
El Pistolero said:
Yeah, but some people here said it's not surprising to see the "best time trial specialist of his generation" to do ridiculous solos in every classic he enters.

yeah. Those were some insane solos from the Canc in Strade Bianchi, Milan San Remo and GW.

And his solo in E3 last year. Madone!!!
Oh and Beijing was Tony Martin's first road win since the Tour de Suisse in 2009 lol.
Ah, i missed the bit in your orignal question asking what solos Tony Martin has done, where you specified that it doesnt count as a solo if its his first road win since the 2009 Tour de Suisse.
 
Tony attempted a solo from nearly 50k out in the Rund um Frankfurt last year, which is a pretty reasonable semi-Classic. It didn't work, he was reeled back but stayed with the group of Moser, Nerz and Firsanov until Moreno attacked in the last kilometre. It was his first day of racing after injury though, so a fully fit Martin may have been able to stay out there longer and maybe even take it to the house.
 
In 1975 Merckx basically rode solo for 100k. Franz Verbeck was with him but never pulled. Merckx let him pull for a few seconds 5 kt from the finish then immediately attacked. Merckx won with 30 secs on Verbeeck and 5 minutes on everyone else. All he had was cortisone. No blood doping or epo.

Doubt very much cancelera is clean.

However the way he won proves zippo.

That is the terrible effect of doping. No one can know the natural hierarchy. No perf is left unquestioned.

This is what actually destroys cycling.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Libertine Seguros said:
Lol at Pisti.

A sprinter doing a 50km solo is incredible and brilliant. The best time triallist of his generation doing a 50km solo is pathetically obvious doping. Gilbert has never done a 50km solo, therefore he can't be accused of doping.
Gilbert got close, 2008 Het Volk
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Lol at Pisti.

A sprinter doing a 50km solo is incredible and brilliant. The best time triallist of his generation doing a 50km solo is pathetically obvious doping. Gilbert has never done a 50km solo, therefore he can't be accused of doping.

I look forward to Cavendish soloing in from 50km out on Sunday, but that will be suspicious because he hasn't shown anything on cobbles. If, though, say, Pozzato was to do it (hahahahaha) it would obviously be suspicious anyhow, but if van Avermaet or Roelandts did it wouldn't.

Pisti probably thought Tchmil stopped being suspicious in 1998.
someone just beat me to the het volk correction (of Gilberts)
 
Apr 20, 2012
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El Pistolero said:
I'm clearly talking about other races like the E3 Harelbeke, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Milan-San Remo, Strade Bianche, Olympics, Mendrisio, etc
E3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0n5rkzhT5As#t=6177s
Solo for 34k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA
Solo for 16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN_oBng0E2c
Solo for 1,3K, Tommeke caught napping, real professional.

Vlaanderen:
2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygkaL1uEo8
Solos for 15. Wow.

2013:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sdWYPebxic0#t=4151s
Solo for a big 14K.

San Remo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pvjpyadZ9dA#t=5394s
Solo for 1500 metres.

Strade Bianche:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qnJ25v2uugs#t=599s
Solo for 12K, downhill, wow.

It looks to me Cancellara is just good at timing his attacks. Takes 5 metres and than relies on hit TT/prologue skills. I have yet not seen an Museeuw attack from Cancellara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzgs50Gek9s
Solo from TenBosse, 25K out, that was sheer fun.

I do not doubt Cancellara has found the cookie yar but your arguments are total BS and riddled with Flandres nationalistic non sense.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
E3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0n5rkzhT5As#t=6177s
Solo for 34k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA
Solo for 16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN_oBng0E2c
Solo for 1,3K, Tommeke caught napping, real professional.

Vlaanderen:
2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygkaL1uEo8
Solos for 15. Wow.

2013:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sdWYPebxic0#t=4151s
Solo for a big 14K.

San Remo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pvjpyadZ9dA#t=5394s
Solo for 1500 metres.

Strade Bianche:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qnJ25v2uugs#t=599s
Solo for 12K, downhill, wow.

It looks to me Cancellara is just good at timing his attacks. Takes 5 metres and than relies on hit TT/prologue skills. I have yet not seen an Museeuw attack from Cancellara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzgs50Gek9s
Solo from TenBosse, 25K out, that was sheer fun.

I do not doubt Cancellara has found the cookie yar but your arguments are total BS and riddled with Flandres nationalistic non sense.
You don't think any of those solos are suspicious? Man, the moment he made every attack everyone knew he won. You can't say that with any other rider. What does Museeuw have to do with this? Perhaps you shouldn't let your own nationality influence with this discussion lol. Strade Bianche downhil, yeah perhaps you should go to Tuscany once and race there yourself. Let's see how you get over those hills if you weight over 82kg.

Prologue skills, yeah right.
 

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