Total Disillusionment

[El Pistolero]

Not really, the only time anyone had a solo longer than 10k in the last 10 years was Andy Schleck, shorter solo's happened in the Gold Race as well (Schleck, Schumacher, Vino). Long solo's are quite common in Roubaix though.
So there is a more level playing field in LBL, I'd certainly agree with that. But that only makes it more normal that long solo's succeed in Roubaix...

Funny how only Gilbert's 2011 season was as suspicious, despite the fact that those damning solo's were only pulled off by Cancellara in 2010, 2011 (and only in E3, he tanked in Vlaanderen and couldn't drop Hushovd on the cobbles in Roubaix) and this year. Yet somehow Gilbert in 2010 attacking on the descend of the Sormano (or was it Ghisallo?), and later on dropping Scarponi like a rock, the only rider in the peloton who has been implicated more than Di Luca, is perfectly fine. Yeah, that's certainly much less suspicious than keeping Roelandts and Tankink behind you in the E3-prijs. Hey, remember 2008, the Omloop? I'm trying to remember how Gilbert won that race?

Btw, where is your post condemning Boonen last year after Roubaix. Sure, he won Vlaanderen and Roubaix 3 times before that, but now he did it with a long solo, the ultimate proof of doping. Clearly you must have been disgusted with Boonen 12 months ago when he finally showed himself to be a doper.

I didn't know how rotten this sport was until after all the confessions in late 2012.

Besides, Boonen's win in 2012 was less suspicious to me than Cancellara's.

Gilbert has a sprint, so he didn't need to drop anyone in the Ardennes classics, but he probably could've.

Take away Cancellara and silly team tactics and you don't see much solos in those cobbled classics(bar Roubaix). Solo in Milan-San Remo has got to be the most suspicious thing a person can do in cycling.

2008 Omloop - Gilbert won in a warm up race. He was nowhere by the time the Ronde van Vlaanderen started.

Lombardia 2010: weather had a huge impact on the race.

Honestly, if you don't see the difference between the solos of Cancellara and those of other cyclists you're blind. I have never seen such a thing, it's ridiculous. And it isn't the Cancellara of 2002-2009.

 

[El Pistolero]

You said winning long solos is 20 times more suspicious than winning a uphill sprint.

But now you aknowledge that the races where Gilbert won those sprints are not conducive to long solos. Isnt there a contradiction there?

BTW, Cancellaras solo in Flanders this year was 12k. His solo in Flanders in 2010 was what 14k? Whats so suspicious about that?

His greatest solo was the Roubaix one of 2010. Boonen did a similar solo last year. In the race threads last year you were adament that Boonen's solo was more impressive than Cancellara's. So arent they both as suspicious as eachother on cobbles?

Obviously not, Cancellara's performances are more suspicious because he does it in every kind of race, not just Roubaix. Cancellara's greatest solo was Milan-San Remo.

What's not suspicious about all of a sudden dropping everyone in the Ronde van Vlaanderen, winning with a huge gap? He never did anything like that before in a Flemish classic. Despite the many attempts and being a good cyclist already.

 

[The Hitch]

Besides, Boonen's win in 2012 was less suspicious to me than Cancellara's.

Yet when the argument was who's performance was better, you seemed to have the exact opposite opinion.

Even the Italian newspapers are amazed:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/08-...o-roubaix-live-inferno-nord-91863894628.shtml

Stuff like Boonen dominated, he's a legend, this will be one of the most beautiful stories in the history of Paris-Roubaix, etc

For a sprinter to do a 53km solo, it definitely is more impressive. It's like Cancellara beating Cavendish in a Tour sprint.

 

[roundabout]

it's better because cancellara is a dopey doper and all his tt medals from every age group are down to dope alone while Boonen is more of a party drug guy

 

[El Pistolero]

Yet when the argument was who's performance was better, you seemed to have the exact opposite opinion.

I'm talking about the Ronde van Vlaanderen 2012. Remeber when I said I don't compare apples to oranges, but apples to apples.

Cancellara's Ronde win this year is more suspicious than Boonen's win last year. Simple as.

Roubaix has yet to be raced this year.

As for Roubaix 2012, yeah that was similar to Roubaix 2010. But as has been said, quite common for the strongest man to win solo in Roubaix. We're talking about Flemish classics here. Do you know the difference between the Ronde van Vlaanderen and Roubaix?

 

[The Hitch]

We're talking about Flemish classics here. Do you know the difference between the Ronde van Vlaanderen and Roubaix?

No you did not make that clear. The conversation was in fact about Paris Roubaix.

Btw, where is your post condemning Boonen last year after Roubaix. Sure, he won Vlaanderen and Roubaix 3 times before that, but now he did it with a long solo, the ultimate proof of doping. Clearly you must have been disgusted with Boonen 12 months ago when he finally showed himself to be a doper.

I didn't know how rotten this sport was until after all the confessions in late 2012.

Besides, Boonen's win in 2012 was less suspicious to me than Cancellara's.

So if you respond to a comment about Boonen's 2012 Roubaix win and say that his 2012 win was less suspicious, why am I supposed to assume you are talking about Flanders?

Why do you make petty insults about people not understanding you when you havent even bothered to make clear what you are talking about?

 

[Lanark]

I didn't know how rotten this sport was until after all the confessions in late 2012.

Besides, Boonen's win in 2012 was less suspicious to me than Cancellara's.

Gilbert has a sprint, so he didn't need to drop anyone in the Ardennes classics, but he probably could've.

Take away Cancellara and silly team tactics and you don't see much solos in those cobbled classics(bar Roubaix). Solo in Milan-San Remo has got to be the most suspicious thing a person can do in cycling.

2008 Omloop - Gilbert won in a warm up race. He was nowhere by the time the Ronde van Vlaanderen started.

Lombardia 2010: weather had a huge impact on the race.

Honestly, if you don't see the difference between the solos of Cancellara and those of other cyclists you're blind. I have never seen such a thing, it's ridiculous. And it isn't the Cancellara of 2002-2009.

Yep, I'm the blind one, not the guy desperately making up arguments to defend his compatriots, despite the fact that most of them backfire.

So Gilbert could solo if he wants, he just chooses not to do it, but Cancellara is more suspicious because he can't win in a sprint and does it in a solo. Makes sense.

You don't get more solo's in the cobbled classics, although you have them much more often (maybe even the magical 20 times), but that can be waved away by team tactics. Weird how that doesn't work in the Fleche. Or else it was weather, somehow. Makes sense.

Yes, and Milano - Sanremo, attacking at 2km of the finish line. That's certainly the most suspicious thing a man can do in cycling. Only the ultimate dopers can keep two tired rival teammates doing some half pulls on a small group behind him for two whole kilometers. A shame the much decried Pozzato pulled back Gilbert in Sanremo in 2011. Otherwise Gilbert would have won there solo, ascending him to the ultimate pantheon of dopers, people who can ride solo for two kilometers in Sanremo.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Obviously not, Cancellara's performances are more suspicious because he does it in every kind of race, not just Roubaix. Cancellara's greatest solo was Milan-San Remo.

You do realize Cancellara is somehow good at TT'ing, or is that also not true?
Lets not forget prologues.

Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zN7OgUNDe8

Would like to know what you think of guys like Jelle Nijdam or others from the past who tried this quite often, succesfully.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Lol at Pisti.

A sprinter doing a 50km solo is incredible and brilliant. The best time triallist of his generation doing a 50km solo is pathetically obvious doping. Gilbert has never done a 50km solo, therefore he can't be accused of doping.

I look forward to Cavendish soloing in from 50km out on Sunday, but that will be suspicious because he hasn't shown anything on cobbles. If, though, say, Pozzato was to do it (hahahahaha) it would obviously be suspicious anyhow, but if van Avermaet or Roelandts did it wouldn't.

Pisti probably thought Tchmil stopped being suspicious in 1998.

 

[del1962]

Lol at Pisti.

A sprinter doing a 50km solo is incredible and brilliant. The best time triallist of his generation doing a 50km solo is pathetically obvious doping. Gilbert has never done a 50km solo, therefore he can't be accused of doping.

I look forward to Cavendish soloing in from 50km out on Sunday, but that will be suspicious because he hasn't shown anything on cobbles. If, though, say, Pozzato was to do it (hahahahaha) it would obviously be suspicious anyhow, but if van Avermaet or Roelandts did it wouldn't.

Pisti probably thought Tchmil stopped being suspicious in 1998.

I don't think Cav is doing Roubaix

Back to Fabian, the thing is according what Tyler and the Rock Racing guys say, he was a Fuentes Client who said bad things about them being dopers, now this story may be wrong, but it does seem true.

Now Cancellara may have been of the Juice since 2007/2008 you choose one, but I am fairly sure he dabbled in it early in his career.

 

[spalco]

I share the emotions of most people here, but what result exactly in a big race will not cause another couple pages in this thread (or similar ones)? If Contador wins the Tour of the Basque Country would that be disillusioning? If Pozzato hangs onto Cancellara's wheel in Roubaix and wins the sprint, is that believable? Can we believe anything anymore?

 

[The Hitch]

I share the emotions of most people here, but what result exactly in a big race will not cause another couple pages in this thread (or similar ones)? If Contador wins the Tour of the Basque Country would that be disillusioning? If Pozzato hangs onto Cancellara's wheel in Roubaix and wins the sprint, is that believable? Can we believe anything anymore?

Contador winning the Basque country would be different since I believe part of the ops point is his perception that the doping he is seeing is being done in the name of clean sport. Contador will never be able to get away with that.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I share the emotions of most people here, but what result exactly in a big race will not cause another couple pages in this thread (or similar ones)? If Contador wins the Tour of the Basque Country would that be disillusioning? If Pozzato hangs onto Cancellara's wheel in Roubaix and wins the sprint, is that believable? Can we believe anything anymore?

Simple answer is no. It's down to faith. What I find interesting here is how much store is put by palmares. Cyclists need a consistent performance arc to be accepted as 'believable' despite, given cycling's past, how much of that is believable?

It's a castle made of sand. In contrast we have the 'transformation' athletes, the ones that were autobus fodder, now can contest for GTs. Did they go forward, or did the rest go backwards? I've questioned the 'virus' at BMC in other threads, I see such declines in them and in others in hinting at riding clean now.

Did Cancellara feel the need to up his game to beat Sagan? We've had Gilbert in '11, Boonen in '12, now Cancellara in '13? Either it is form, preperation, motivation, inspiration, tactics and a dose of blind luck. Bit like other teams.

Or it is something else. Something not normal. And it up to the individual to judge on that, but do it objectively, and not on personal likes or dislikes, then we may get closer to the truth.

 

[Netserk]

Or it is something else. Something not normal. And it up to the individual to judge on that, but do it objectively, and not on personal likes or dislikes, then we may get closer to the truth.

I think it is due to 'not normal'. And I think that I mostly say that objectively. I think Boonen doped for his entire pro-career. The same with Alberto.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think it is due to 'not normal'. And I think that I mostly say that objectively. I think Boonen doped for his entire pro-career. The same with Alberto.

I think they have us chasing our tails, dissecting palmares to determine the worthiness, the believability of the most recent win, despite those results we compare them with have no real believability.

And then on the other foot any without the requisite credentials who suddenly start winning are even more vociferously condemned.

So basically we can't believe anything, any performance, certainly not by comparing past performances because we have no idea whether they were clean or not. Basically every performance is doped, so it boils down to more of a popularity contest as to how much stick they get for it on the internet.

 

[El Pistolero]

Lol at Pisti.

A sprinter doing a 50km solo is incredible and brilliant. The best time triallist of his generation doing a 50km solo is pathetically obvious doping. Gilbert has never done a 50km solo, therefore he can't be accused of doping.

I look forward to Cavendish soloing in from 50km out on Sunday, but that will be suspicious because he hasn't shown anything on cobbles. If, though, say, Pozzato was to do it (hahahahaha) it would obviously be suspicious anyhow, but if van Avermaet or Roelandts did it wouldn't.

Pisti probably thought Tchmil stopped being suspicious in 1998.

Where do you see me saying Phil and Boonen are clean?

It's just that Cancellara takes it to another level with his ridiculous solos.

If someone climbs a mountain super fast than that is suspicious. For the same reason it is also more suspicious if someone can drop everyone and ride alone for 40km in the headwind against a group of 8. Common sense, but I guess that doesn't apply here. If someone breaks Pantani's climbing times on some Tour climbs than yeah that will be more suspicious than someone winning a mountain finish from a small group in a slower time.

You think I'm a Greg van Avermaet fan? Lol, oh boy.

Cancellara can't win a time trial anymore yet still does epic solos in classics. Who believes that?

But anyway, if we're going to attack riders we like to win an argument you're losing anyway as all your favorite riders come from Spain and Portugal.

 

[El Pistolero]

You do realize Cancellara is somehow good at TT'ing, or is that also not true?
Lets not forget prologues.

Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zN7OgUNDe8

Would like to know what you think of guys like Jelle Nijdam or others from the past who tried this quite often, succesfully.

Tony Martin is better at time trials yet I don't see him doing stuff like that. What about prologues?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Tony Martin is better at time trials yet I don't see him doing stuff like that. What about prologues?

Solid point

 

[The Hitch]

For the same reason it is also more suspicious if someone can drop everyone and ride alone for 40km in the headwind against a group of 8.
.

Boonen didn't do that last year in PR?

But anyway, if we're going to attack riders we like to win an argument you're losing anyway as all your favorite riders come from Spain and Portugal

Wow, What an argument. you really killed him there with that.

Literally got in there and stuck knife in.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Literally got in there and stuck knife in.

Is that you David?

I lolled

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Where do you see me saying Phil and Boonen are clean?

It's just that Cancellara takes it to another level with his ridiculous solos.

If someone climbs a mountain super fast than that is suspicious. For the same reason it is also more suspicious if someone can drop everyone and ride alone for 40km in the headwind against a group of 8. Common sense, but I guess that doesn't apply here. If someone breaks Pantani's climbing times on some Tour climbs than yeah that will be more suspicious than someone winning a mountain finish from a small group in a slower time.

You think I'm a Greg van Avermaet fan? Lol, oh boy.

Cancellara can't win a time trial anymore yet still does epic solos in classics. Who believes that?

But anyway, if we're going to attack riders we like to win an argument you're losing anyway as all your favorite riders come from Spain and Portugal.

Please advise me where the guys he's soloing against in Classics beat him in time trials? Wiggins, Froome and Martin aren't racing de Ronde, and the only one of the genuine classics threats who can do a TT on the right sort of level to match up with Cancellara is EBH, who doesn't seem to have the endurance to do it at the end of the race.

And once more, why is Boonen's solo less ridiculous than Cancellara's, when Cancellara's a multiple World Champion in the time trial and soloing away is his only real weapon since he'll lose to most of his rivals in a sprint? I concede that Cancellara is probably doping, I just don't see a ridiculous step up from him. Nothing to match the Team Sky transformations you put it down as being worse than.

I don't understand your last sentence. Where are you attacking riders you like? My very point was that you don't. You attack riders you don't like, often using the same criteria you use to praise riders you do like, and then you move the goalposts when this is inevitably pointed out to you (usually by The Hitch). If we're judging the argument based on who is more willing to attack riders they like as dopers, then surely the fact that most of my favourites are Spanish or Portuguese means that I ought to be winning, not losing?

Cancellara's 2010 or 2013 are no more ridiculous than Gilbert's 2011 with Ibarguren smiling in the background, and they sure as hell aren't more ridiculous than anything that's come out of a team with a boring black kit recently. Is Cancellara more than likely doping? Sure. But I don't see a crazy transformation in his skills, nor do I see anything that untoward about a time trial specialist being able to ride away from two very tired riders who aren't time trial specialists solo.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry, if he was doping do we need to prove a crazy transformation in performance? He doesn't need to be better, but just as good. His doping palmares are solid, so he's more forgivable than the riders in the 'boring' black kit, You betray a lot prejudices in this post, I thought you more objective

 

[El Pistolero]

Please advise me where the guys he's soloing against in Classics beat him in time trials? Wiggins, Froome and Martin aren't racing de Ronde, and the only one of the genuine classics threats who can do a TT on the right sort of level to match up with Cancellara is EBH, who doesn't seem to have the endurance to do it at the end of the race.

And once more, why is Boonen's solo less ridiculous than Cancellara's, when Cancellara's a multiple World Champion in the time trial and soloing away is his only real weapon since he'll lose to most of his rivals in a sprint? I concede that Cancellara is probably doping, I just don't see a ridiculous step up from him. Nothing to match the Team Sky transformations you put it down as being worse than.

I don't understand your last sentence. Where are you attacking riders you like? My very point was that you don't. You attack riders you don't like, often using the same criteria you use to praise riders you do like, and then you move the goalposts when this is inevitably pointed out to you (usually by The Hitch). If we're judging the argument based on who is more willing to attack riders they like as dopers, then surely the fact that most of my favourites are Spanish or Portuguese means that I ought to be winning, not losing?

Cancellara's 2010 or 2013 are no more ridiculous than Gilbert's 2011 with Ibarguren smiling in the background, and they sure as hell aren't more ridiculous than anything that's come out of a team with a boring black kit recently. Is Cancellara more than likely doping? Sure. But I don't see a crazy transformation in his skills, nor do I see anything that untoward about a time trial specialist being able to ride away from two very tired riders who aren't time trial specialists solo.

Like I said, Tony Martin is a better time trial specialist than Cancellara yet he never pulls ridiculous stunts like that.

Where exactly am I saying that Phil's 2011 isn't ridiculous? I said it was equally ridiculous as Cancellara in 2010/2013 and his climbing in 2008/2009. Learn to read. It's in this very thread for crying out loud. I also said Boonen's Roubaix in 2012 is similar to Cancellara's in 2010. But his Ronde wins for me are much less suspicious because he didn't overpower everyone with apparent ease.

No crazy transformation in his skills? Man, did you watch any of the Flemish classics before 2010 or were you too busy looking for Euskaltel?

Besides, Cancellara was doping from early on. I think Phil was cleaner than Cancellara for most of his career yes. Don't you? Mapei, Cecchini, Riis, Fuentes, accusations of Hamilton, etc

Same goes for your little friend Valverde who was doping the moment he touched a bike. Perhaps the Sky boys just started doping later and that's why you see a bigger transformation. But there's still an obvious transformation with Cancellara in the Flemish classics in 2010.

I don't move goalposts by the way.

 

[JimmyFingers]

EBH tried and failed to follow Canc/Sagan on the Kwaremont and sat in the back of the chasing pack after, and in the sprint for 4th ended up 17th.

Given he is one of the most talented riders on a team of nefarious, team-wide dopers, you would have thought he would be on the juice. And despite the fact Brailsford has talked about dominating the spring classics and holed the team up in Teide, where, as we all know, Wiggins and Froome and Porte and Rogers got their juice, some say he's the exception, he's the one that said no.

But surely joining the dots says Eddy is knee-deep in the Sky programme, so if riders are riding away from him with the ease they did, what does it say about their performance?

And for the record I think he's clean.

 

[Pentacycle]

Like I said, Tony Martin is a better time trial specialist than Cancellara yet he never pulls ridiculous stunts like that.

Where exactly am I saying that Phil's 2011 isn't ridiculous? I said it was equally ridiculous as Cancellara in 2010/2013 and his climbing in 2008/2009. Learn to read. It's in this very thread for crying out loud. I also said Boonen's Roubaix in 2012 is similar to Cancellara's in 2010. But his Ronde wins for me are much less suspicious because he didn't overpower everyone with apparent ease.

No crazy transformation in his skills? Man, did you watch any of the Flemish classics before 2010 or were you too busy looking for Euskaltel?

Besides, Cancellara was doping from early on. I think Phil was cleaner than Cancellara for most of his career yes. Don't you? Mapei, Cecchini, Riis, Fuentes, accusations of Hamilton, etc

Same goes for your little friend Valverde who was doping the moment he touched a bike. Perhaps the Sky boys just started doping later and that's why you see a bigger transformation. But there's still an obvious transformation with Cancellara in the Flemish classics in 2010.

I don't move goalposts by the way.

Tony Martin has nothing to do with classics, as he lacks any talent for those.

You THINK Gilbert was cleaner than Cancellara - good arguing there. FDJ isn't really innocent either, and at Lotto Phil got even more stuff.

You call Fabian's progression a transformation, I call it maturing by gaining experience every year. Someone like Boonen had a lot of opportunities to race and train in the Flemish Ardennes from an early age on. That's why it's very special when a young 'foreigner' like Sagan or Langeveld are already performing in Flanders at age 23.

And don't get started about Valverde. Replace Boonen with his name, and Sky boys by Cancellara in your post and magic happens.