Total Disillusionment

[D-Queued]

You think not? I think New Zealand might be a rather good place to have a look...

Kerrison is an ex-rower too you know....

In 1976, Rowing was a good place to look for leadership.

Today, the sport is not a leader.

Tudor's marginal gains didn't help anyone against the DDR in 1976. On the podium in every single event and nine of a possible 14 gold medals suggest that there was a more powerful 'technique' than periodization.

The kind of domination that SKY is still just aspiring to.

Funny that. Kind of helps support the cynics view that marginal gains are like bringing a knife to a nuclear fight.

Dave.

 

[frenchfry]

No, rowing is too last century to offer anything to the new cycling.

Dave.

What about that excellent marketing jingle, "row, row row your boat".

Cycling has nothing like it.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

1. Read this place a bit longer and you will have already learnt -
I'm NOT F***ING BRITISH. I'm IRISH.

Same thing, right?

 

[del1962]

EDIT :
Deleted response to a post that has gone

 

[The Hitch]

I've been around enough not to believe just any
FWIW I don't think it's gonna last through the season. They'll be competitive, but others are just warming up as they can't field that same force through a whole season. I think they'll lose out on both Giro and Tour which would leave them with a shot at the Vuelta for a GT this year.

that's what everyone was saying last year. Then Wiggins continued to win- romandie, then dauphine 1-2-4. And people said surely that was the peak, surely everyone been saving themselves. Then sky won just under a 3rd of all stages at the tour de France, + managed to 1-2 the podium.

 

[Roude Leiw]

that's what everyone was saying last year. Then Wiggins continued to win- romandie, then dauphine 1-2-4. And people said surely that was the peak, surely everyone been saving themselves. Then sky won just under a 3rd of all stages at the tour de France, + managed to 1-2 the podium.

That is what I fear..... And it will be so ridiculous, that cycling might end up in other countries where it ended up in germany, behind curling in terms of media coverage.... The average Joe Sportsfan is not completely stupid and turns away, average Joe going away, mainstream sponsor money going away, teams will die...there are not enough bycicle manufacturers out there who can shell out 6-8 mln a year for a professional sports team

 

[The Hitch]

There's precious little critical perception on either 'side', Cimber. Certainly not in here.

Look, here we have a thread because someone is now totally disillusioned.

After Sky win one GT.

They survived the Indurain years as Lemond went out the back like a sunday rider.

They held on as fat arses like Riis mocked true goats.

They hung on as Pantani withered and died in front of our eyes.

Hell, they even held on for seven, read that again, seven friggin Armstrong years, plus one more for his once apostle.

Some of us held on as all OUR riders of note turned out to be men with feet of clay - Kelly, Roche...

And didn't bat an eye lid as Contador got a Royal oardon form the stench of Puerto...

But SKY? Of dear god, we can't bear it, it's unprecedented in its awfulness, this time, THIS TIME, I can take no more!! Lance was an amateur to these b***tards. Roche just a canny Irishman, Indurain a saint. Riis was just a big cuddly viking. Pantani may as well have been water and the power of prayer.

But this, BUT THIS, we cannot, cannot bear.

yeah, absolutely...

Now, do Sky dope? I don't know. And nobody in here does.

Some like to think they know, on both sides. but they don't.

If they are, I pray they are caught soon, and we never, ever see any of them ever again - hopefully because they are all doing jail time.

But the recent hysterics in here? On both sides? Damn little to do with doping.




.

You clearly weren't here 2009-2011. The clinic was 99.9% Armstrong. It was the global hq of Armstrong haters. The mods were even considering creating a seperate Armstrong forum. A very large % of the sky sceptics, including the op of this thread spent over 80% of their cn time and forums before cn, slamming armstrong and praying for his fall.

so to say these people didn't care about armstong and are just anti Wiggins is ludicrous.
in fact a lot of these posters only hate Wiggins because he took Armstrongs side and attacked Landis as a drunk liar for saying his hero lance doped.

And because sky modelled themselves after us postal.

By choosing Armstrong's side anr attacking those who went after him Wiggins made himself a target of wehatelance.com aka the clinic.

a lot of these same people turned against Contador not when he got caught but when he said lance was clean. Everyone who defended that scum sucker Armstrong and attacked his detractors is for pretty obvious and perfectly sensible reasons, not liked by the clinic.

The truth? A lot of people in here, on both sides, just want to be 'the cool kids' - they pick their sides based on how it makes them feel, not on pesky things like facts, evidence, logic or research.

strange theory. Any arguments to back it up?

Just look at the relative pity and near sympathy a sh!thead like Ricco gets. "oh, he's just an easy target" "oh, you only talk about him because he's not an anglo" "oh, he's a scapegoat" - no, he's a f***ing doper with no remorse who nearly killed himself in the attempt. No more. And no less.

Sorry from who does ricco get pitty. Here I thought it was 1 or 2 posters but you make it sound like the whole clinic.

And yes ricco was a scapegoat. Because people - riders, ex riders, commentators, who defended lance to the death and people who welcome basso and Contador and valverde back with open arms, told ricco he was unwelcome in cycling and to **** off.

That's not to say he wasn't a total **** and didn't deserve it, but he was a scapegoat.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

that's what everyone was saying last year. Then Wiggins continued to win- romandie, then dauphine 1-2-4. And people said surely that was the peak, surely everyone been saving themselves. Then sky won just under a 3rd of all stages at the tour de France, + managed to 1-2 the podium.

To be fair half of those were won by Cav, which ain't gonna happen this year.

 

[The Hitch]

. The average Joe Sportsfan is not completely.

yes he is.

 

[The Hitch]

To be fair half of those were won by Cav, which ain't gonna happen this year.

Cav is good enough to win sprints himself but he does require a train to set the sprint up in the first place. And a pretty good one at that considering his previous sprint train consisted of people would would monopolise top 10s in tts

 

[Pentacycle]

To be fair half of those were won by Cav, which ain't gonna happen this year.

Swift will step up, you just haven't seen him.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Cav is good enough to win sprints himself but he does require a train to set the sprint up in the first place. And a pretty good one at that considering his previous sprint train consisted of people would would monopolise top 10s in tts

He requires a sprint train but it does not need to be his own teams. There are plenty of times where his team have gone walkabout and he has been able to improvise and jump on someone else's wheel.

 

[Roude Leiw]

yes he is.

I have a lot of friends in France and here in Lux who don't give a rats **** about cycling.... All they tell you that they are all doped anyway.

Funny thing is if the Tour passes somewhere around where they live, they end up on the side of the road anyway

 

[DirtyWorks]

And because sky modelled themselves after us postal.

This is an important point.

TeamSky is backed by BC. Just like USA Cycling/USPS, the head of the national federation has an ownership stake in TeamSky. The federation that is supposed to be the rules enforcer is backing a Pro team. What are the chances the federation would enforce any rules that would make the team look bad?

The leader of BC is also on the UCI's management committee and road committee and we know the UCI itself just doesn't act on some positives.

Does that mean they are doping? No. It does mean an official Sky doping positive would be very unlikely though.

 

[martinvickers]

In 1976, Rowing was a good place to look for leadership.

Today, the sport is not a leader.

Tudor's marginal gains didn't help anyone against the DDR in 1976. On the podium in every single event and nine of a possible 14 gold medals suggest that there was a more powerful 'technique' than periodization.

The kind of domination that SKY is still just aspiring to.

Funny that. Kind of helps support the cynics view that marginal gains are like bringing a knife to a nuclear fight.

Dave.

Look, GDR made Lance look like a rank amateur Panny Agwa loving beatnik. Nothing, but nothing, compares to them guys. Not USA. Not big Ben. Not BALCO. Not even the Soviets or Ma's Army.

special place in hell for them all. Destoyed young lives left and centre - and many were genuinely innocent, knowing nothing of the abuse done onto them.

And that's before we even touch on the pervesions certain girl gymnasts suffered.

Can i just say, at the risk of sucking up - that I'm grateful for the last couple of posts by you and Hitch - Thought out, cogent, genuinely made me think..such a pleasant bl**dy change in here!

For what it's worth, My hunch for 'leadership' these days, for good or ill, is Triathlon. That's your cutting edge, in my utterly unschooled opinion.

Still wonder about the Kiwi rowers though. Per head, ridiculously strong.

 

[Roude Leiw]

In 15 years Richi will write his breakthrough bestseller "A rough and secret race through the dark" and the clinic will be proven correct.

 

[martinvickers]

You clearly weren't here 2009-2011. The clinic was 99.9% Armstrong. It was the global hq of Armstrong haters. The mods were even considering creating a seperate Armstrong forum. A very large % of the sky sceptics, including the op of this thread spent over 80% of their cn time and forums before cn, slamming armstrong and praying for his fall.

so to say these people didn't care about armstong and are just anti Wiggins is ludicrous.
in fact a lot of these posters only hate Wiggins because he took Armstrongs side and attacked Landis as a drunk liar for saying his hero lance doped.

And because sky modelled themselves after us postal.

By choosing Armstrong's side anr attacking those who went after him Wiggins made himself a target of wehatelance.com aka the clinic.

a lot of these same people turned against Contador not when he got caught but when he said lance was clean. Everyone who defended that scum sucker Armstrong and attacked his detractors is for pretty obvious and perfectly sensible reasons, not liked by the clinic.

A fair summary, that plays to both sides, I'd argue - yes, Sky's dominance stinks, both for entertainment and for trust. Yes Wiggins is a sh!t (like we didn't know). Yes, a fair amount of the 'sky hate' is rather more personal than forensic. And we have precious little 'real' evidence. yet.

Sorry from who does ricco get pitty. Here I thought it was 1 or 2 posters but you make it sound like the whole clinic.

And yes ricco was a scapegoat. Because people - riders, ex riders, commentators, who defended lance to the death and people who welcome basso and Contador and valverde back with open arms, told ricco he was unwelcome in cycling and to **** off.

That's not to say he wasn't a total **** and didn't deserve it, but he was a scapegoat.

I think there were plenty who 'pitied' him on here, but I will entirely accept your last point. Fairly made.

And thanks for this post. Good to have something with a bit of context and depth to consider. I'm grateful.

 

[martinvickers]

Does that mean they are doping? No. It does mean an official Sky doping positive would be very unlikely though.

Can't actually argue with that. fair point.

 

[JPM London]

Really, Kreuziger JPM?

Really.

Of all the 'pro - Sky' arguments this one is the real deal. Kreuziger. Placed 13th in the Tour age 22. Incomparable to those super talents of Team Sky.

To be fair, Wiggins aged 22 did win a stage in the Surrey League 5 Days.

Ok, agreed, took it one step too far. Hopefully as well with Roche - I surely hope he'll get some more success in the week-longs. He deserves I think...

I think my point is that although both Froome and Porte have no GTs between them and certainly have been more succesful since joining Sky I also think it's far fetched claiming there's no way their potential could be natural.

When Porte left Saxo he was pretty much wanted by any team. He did show a lot of promise early on.

Froome I don't see as a machine either, but I must admit I don't know too much about him apart from his oft related infection problems - which (if not an utter lie and cover up) would explain why he's not been able to break through completely before...

But, yeah, I was over doing it a bit.

Froome and Porte had not shown GT leadership potential pre-Sky. Porte's Giro success was good, but there were other factors in play that many people don't seem to recall.

Besides which - even if this theory were sound, history has shown having lots of potential GT winners does not give you the dominance Sky has shown.

There's no doubt Porte was wanted by many teams - even if his Giro run was helped by a breakaway - and that was not down to his good looks but a lot of promise. He wasn't a leader at that time - he still isn't completely - but he would be the best rider on many teams. That prospect was clear before Sky hooked him...

 

[The Hitch]

A fair summary, that plays to both sides, I'd argue - yes, Sky's dominance stinks, both for entertainment and for trust. Yes Wiggins is a sh!t (like we didn't know). Yes, a fair amount of the 'sky hate' is rather more personal than forensic. And we have precious little 'real' evidence. yet.





I think there were plenty who 'pitied' him on here, but I will entirely accept your last point. Fairly made.

And thanks for this post. Good to have something with a bit of context and depth to consider. I'm grateful.

Well I'm grateful for that. I've got some work to do and wasn't looking forward to dragging this one out

 

[andy1234]

Yup. Five years ago I felt the situation was on its way to getting better. The return of Armstrong along with the ASO making a deal with the UCI, replacing Clerc, and ordering l'Equipe not to proactively report on doping was a big blow. The way riders, race organizers, and the governing body embraced him was an even larger one. But there was hope something might come out of the federal investigation that would lead to change. Nothing of significance happened other than the destruction of Armstrong. The sport has collectively dismissed that as an anomaly from the past. Speeds are down, everything is clean. The idjit McQuaid will be elected to another term and is making statements to the press that the bio passport makes it impossible to get away with doping. Yet, the racing is more ludicrous than about anything we saw during the EPO era. Whatever hope I had that the sport could get better is gone. The Sky farce and the way the media and cycling's stakeholders are falling over themselves to repeat the same propaganda they used to build the Armstrong myth has seen to that. The way the Skygits breathlessly repeat the PR machine's talking points has, perhaps, made me even more cynical.

Watching this sport is like watching a wife who keeps returning to her abusive husband, convinced that this time he's going to change.

Except, in this scenario, it's you that is the "wife".
You have a choice to leave, but, you have been complaining so long, you don't know any other way....

 

[Franklin]

A fair summary, that plays to both sides, I'd argue - yes, Sky's dominance stinks, both for entertainment and for trust. Yes Wiggins is a sh!t (like we didn't know). Yes, a fair amount of the 'sky hate' is rather more personal than forensic. And we have precious little 'real' evidence. yet.

We do have the odds though.

And Dave Bfrailsford needs a lifetime ban. Scum like Dave Brailsford, who openly lies needs to be eradicated from this sport. And yes, d.r Menuet needs that Lifetime ban post-haste

I think there were plenty who 'pitied' him on here, but I will entirely accept your last point. Fairly made.

Ricco deserves pity if we consider how Lance, Contador and Valverde were treated.

And thanks for this post. Good to have something with a bit of context and depth to consider. I'm grateful.

It's nothing new as you fully well know of following these threads. The big problem with Sky is that the facts which are known are damning and that the answers we get are plain lies. That's unacceptable and very, very distressing.

 

[D-Queued]

....

Still wonder about the Kiwi rowers though. Per head, ridiculously strong.

But, they always have been.

At least they have been since they first showed up in 1972, and took gold in the Men's eights and silver in the Straight 4. (Kind of the reverse of the start of Canada's competitiveness in 1956).

And, if a country like Canada can be that dominant in rowing then why not NZ?

Canada might be able to produce a Genevieve or a Ben, but rowing can barely afford oars for all those athletes let alone doping products. I think the athletes actually get at least on set of workout kit now. They don't even have a sponsorship contract. Canada sucks at big-time, full team doping, at least in rowing (no comment on hockey). Yet are still strong contenders.

In terms of the comparison between Lance and E. Germany, you are right. Nothing can compare. Lance is, arguably, the best example of what a capitalist society can do to master doping through willing participants, endorsement from the sport, highly organized illegal activities and racketeering.

Of these, the endorsement and aiding and abetting from the sporting body* is where Lance beats out E. Germany.

*I have to qualify that direct accusation, of course, and will add this:

I don't think E. Germany had the kind of favors from any sporting body like those that Lance had from Hein and Pat.

For further clarity: Clowns.

Dave.

 

[spalco]

Ricco deserves pity if we consider how Lance, Contador and Valverde were treated.

Ricco deserves pity, because his is a wasted life (so far, maybe he manages to make something for himself now that he's free of the pressure to succeed in cycling), and because he almost became a victim of doping himself by nearly committing suicide via doping. He's not a good guy, but what happened to him is quite tragic imo.

Getting caught and banned for life was the best thing that could happen to him.

 

[del1962]

We do have the odds though.

And Dave Bfrailsford needs a lifetime ban. Scum like Dave Brailsford, who openly lies needs to be eradicated from this sport. And yes, d.r Menuet needs that Lifetime ban post-haste



Ricco deserves pity if we consider how Lance, Contador and Valverde were treated.



It's nothing new as you fully well know of following these threads. The big problem with Sky is that the facts which are known are damning and that the answers we get are plain lies. That's unacceptable and very, very distressing.

I say put Brailsford in a ducking stool, if he drowns he is innocent, if he lives he is an Dr Evil. WHat could be fairer than that?