Total Disillusionment

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Yeah my spelling is awful, thanks. Ok well whats your view point then?

I tend to think anyone who honestly believes that there is mass deference to people with honorifics in Britain is some sort of SWP nutjob, long since incapable of actually looking at reality, but each to their own, I have a number of old school friends who seem very happy in their own little socialist fantasy worlds.

If Wiggins gets an overly good press, it has nothing to do with a knighthood.

 

[horsinabout]

I think it means once your a knight, the British press won't touch you with negative stories. I would tend to agree, unless their is a concrete positive test or something similar both the wider British public and press will not be interested in exposing a knight of the empire.

That may seem a little ridiculous for non Brits but its true.

Knighthoods Ipso facto give you a special status for services rendered for queen and country. In DB case Olympic medals. Wiggins first Brit to win TDF.

This does not automatically give you glowing press coverage. The press coverage, if positive, will be more to do with Sky's sponsorship, a media company than it will a knighthood. But is also to do with public support, this is the protection part, so long as the public are in favour and powerful interests, be they political or business.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think it means once your a knight, the British press won't touch you with negative stories. I would tend to agree, unless their is a concrete positive test or something similar both the wider British public and press will not be interested in exposing a knight of the empire.

That may seem a little ridiculous for non Brits but its true.

No offense but that sounds plain stupid for this non Brit.

 

[martinvickers]

No offense but that sounds plain stupid for this non Brit.

He's never heard of Fred Goodwin, then i suppose. Add in Jimmy Savile, and retracting, or trying to retract knighthoods is all the rage, frankly...

 

[The Hitch]

You should have learnt the difference by now.

The last line gives away that its clearly trolling

Also new posters even the most pro sky ones tend to be a bit more diplomatic about it. This one jumps straight in at the juggular throwing in all the points Jocahim always does.

 

[martinvickers]

Disagree with that.

Ive heard a lot of people herald Wiggins as the first person to win the Tour clean (in ages).

Ive heard less people herald Evans as being the first person to win the Tour clean (in ages) and adding that Wiggins continued this.
That includes Wiggins who said Evans was the first TDF winner we could believe in. It also includes that ozzie what did the Vuelta for ITV a few years ago, matt something.

I haven't heard anyone give this praise to Sastre. Hes got as good an argument as any of them (not that I believe for a second he was clean, and even less so Evans), but he has got the arguments - never tested positive, never linked.

To follow on, why is that.

You can certainly guess what me and a few in the clinic believe is the reason Wiggins and others wont give Sastre the same praise they give wiggins.

Sastre has an 'interesting' relationship with Riis. Nothing was made explicit, publically, but there was more than a hint that Sastre was not 'on board' with the methods Riis was willing to use, and as such, riis didn't get 'behind' Sastre the way you'd expect of someone with his exceptional and consistently good GC record.

I do get the impression, and it's only an impression, that Riss was less of a complete d*ck than, say, Bruyneel, and managed to keep some sort of amicable relationship going even with those who wouldn't 'prepare'. Not I say less than Bruyneel, not that he wasn't one anyway.

Most of those who herald Evans, then Wiggins suffer from 2 issues.

1 . An Anglophone press, media and entertainment complex that is universally bad on the history of cycling.

I wonder how many average Brits, not bike fans, know Wiggins was the first UK winner ever. I wonder in turn how many know who won the year before, or where Wiggins finished in 09. Hell, some of them probably think Lance won his tours in the last couple of years.

i'm frankly amazed Wiggins even gave Evans any credit, though it seems he did.


2. The 'Contador' interregnum.

It's not a simple thing to explain the ebb and flow of doping in le tour over the years. I've heard people swear that Postal aside, the first post Festina tour was rather genuine. I've heard other say 99 was the worst year ever. I tend to somewhere in between -different toilet, same sh!t.

AS Franklin points out, 2008 wasn't CLEAN. No race is, frankly. But then I didn't say it was. as I put it, it was 'relatively' clean - it was cleanER than 2006 or the disasterous 2007 at the 'head of state level' as put by Ferminal. There is no proof Sastre was clean, such proof is impossible anyway, but his performances were not extraterrestrial on an objective level, and yet he won. Evans and CVV at Garmin also placed highly. make of that what you will.

Whether this was a post landis hangover, doubled down with the Rasmussen episode and post puerto or something else, i don't know. Hey, I could be wrong - but sastre seems to have avoided been 'fingered' in ways his peers, expecially his country men (see contador) did not. And again, entirely to my eyes, there was a flow to the 2008 tour which oddly reminds me of the 2011 tour - and Not At All similar to 2012.

Of course, we know what Armstrong thought of the 2008 race; his return, along with a lesser extent Contador's brought a lot of poison back - maybe the peleton took it as an indication the old rules were back, I don't know.

As for why Wiggins ignored Sastre's claim, you may be right, but really, Wiggins can't be depended on to keep his thoughts consistent from when he craps 'til when he wipes. The man still worships Indurain, even post Lance. Or he may just be accounting for Contador/Armstrong II, who knows what oddities go through his head from day to day. (I may not be entirely convinced he's dirty, but i'm not a fan)

 

[The Hitch]

He's never heard of Fred Goodwin, then i suppose. Add in Jimmy Savile, and retracting, or trying to retract knighthoods is all the rage, frankly...

Saville didn't truimph in sport. I agree its not the knighthood that keeps Wiggins in teflon, but the fact that he is a national sporting hero. Especially one who played such a key role in what millions in Britain saw as the greatest summer of their lives. Same will go for Farah and Ennis.

For the same reasons, Spain will never go after La Roja, Jamaica will never go after Bolt, Argentina will never go after Messi. and im not just talking about doping, they could punch Nelson Mandela in the face and their nation would sooner call for war with South Africa than admit they were wrong.

 

[del1962]

Actually old red nose, who is a knight of the realm, is not adverse to criticism from some members of the press, (ever heard what the BBC's Alan Greene sometimes says about it), the miserable scots git deserves all the criticism as far as I am concermed

 

[Franklin]

AS Franklin points out, 2008 wasn't CLEAN. No race is, frankly. But then I didn't say it was. as I put it, it was 'relatively' clean - it was cleanER than 2006 or the disasterous 2007 at the 'head of state level' as put by Ferminal.

Based on what metric? Rabobank decided not to use dope in 2008? Kohl's podium place and KOM were good, but doesn't count because "unicorns"? Ricco, who had a cool 2nd in the Giro can't be seen as "head of state" level?

I'm done with this nonsense. If you keep on saying 2008 was relatively clean but don't dare to admit that this is against all the facts it's completely pointless to continue.

 

[martinvickers]

Saville didn't truimph in sport. I agree its not the knighthood that keeps Wiggins in teflon, but the fact that he is a national sporting hero. Especially one who played such a key role in what millions in Britain saw as the greatest summer of their lives. Same will go for Farah and Ennis.

For the same reasons, Spain will never go after La Roja, Jamaica will never go after Bolt, Argentina will never go after Messi. and im not just talking about doping, they could punch Nelson Mandela in the face and their nation would sooner call for war with South Africa than admit they were wrong.

All entirely sound points. I don't entirely agree, but they are entirely plausible as far as they go.

 

[del1962]

Saville didn't truimph in sport. I agree its not the knighthood that keeps Wiggins in teflon, but the fact that he is a national sporting hero. Especially one who played such a key role in what millions in Britain saw as the greatest summer of their lives. Same will go for Farah and Ennis.

For the same reasons, Spain will never go after La Roja, Jamaica will never go after Bolt, Argentina will never go after Messi. and im not just talking about doping, they could punch Nelson Mandela in the face and their nation would sooner call for war with South Africa than admit they were wrong.

And the US will never go after Lance, oh wait a minute

 

[martinvickers]

Based on what metric? Rabobank decided not to use dope in 2008? Kohl's podium place and KOM were good, but doesn't count because "unicorns"? Ricco, who had a cool 2nd in the Giro can't be seen as "head of state" level?

I'm done with this nonsense. If you keep on saying 2008 was relatively clean but don't dare to admit that this is against all the facts it's completely pointless to continue.

sigh...fine, throw a strop if you want. I'm quite happy on where I stand on the facts. I've told you, you're feelings aren't among them.

You have your religious beliefs. I respect you have them. i'm under no obligation to share them.

 

[martinvickers]

And the US will never go after Lance, oh wait a minute

USADA were uncommonly 'Eliot Ness' in the end - hell, even the Attorney General tried to save Lance.

FWIW, Britain, like Ireland, always has a few 'contrarians' in their ranks. Someone, somewhere may well go after Wiggins eventually. They ganged up on Vicky P quick enough. The Sun tried to make Laura Troot into a femme fetale, for pete's sake.

Hoy, however is untouchable.

The only thing Brits love more than a hero, is a scandal. And in third place, they love a redemption story. A Shakespearian race, really, the British.

The Irish, more schooled in misery, love a romantic tragedy. Especially if the 'hero' suffers and dies (see cú chulain, Parnell, O'Connell, 1916, losng to a Henry handball...).

 

[leon7766]

Knighthoods give you a free passage Im still laughing .This is Britain where we do the right thing .

 

[Franklin]

sigh...fine, throw a strop if you want. I'm quite happy on where I stand on the facts. I've told you, you're feelings aren't among them.

You have your religious beliefs. I respect you have them. i'm under no obligation to share them.

Those are called facts Martin. verifiable things that happened in the past.

Faith is when I tell you I can carry 300 KG with my left hand and you believe me.

We both understand the difference, don't we?

Or are you putting up a strawman that "I know Sky uses dope"? I advice you to read my posts.

 

[dolophonic]

The worst thing about Sky is that, for me, they are almost single-handedly destroying what little credibility cycling had regained in the last 5 years. They've made everything suspect and tainted, like it was in the worst days of the EPO era. Whether I like it or not, they've changed the way I look at cycling and made it a lot more cynical - and it wasn't exactly all sugar and spice to begin with.

Yes.. This seems to sum up he state of affairs.

 

[The Hitch]

And the US will never go after Lance

Did i say that?

US, and possibly Russia and China are different in that they are huge countries with hundreds of sporting icons, so each one is worth far less. Even huge for the ages stars like Phelps who in other countries would get gold plated statues in the city centre, is expected to win his gold medal, and move along for the next.

Also the main 4 US sports are interamerican not international, which probably makes a bit of a difference.

Was Lance even that big a star? In the tv interviews with Hamilton they had to carefully explain to viewers that Lance won this race called the Tour De France "which is like the superbowl of cycling"

 

[del1962]

USADA were uncommonly 'Eliot Ness' in the end - hell, even the Attorney General tried to save Lance.

FWIW, Britain, like Ireland, always has a few 'contrarians' in their ranks. Someone, somewhere may well go after Wiggins eventually. They ganged up on Vicky P quick enough. The Sun tried to make Laura Troot into a femme fetale, for pete's sake.

Hoy, however is untouchable.

The only thing Brits love more than a hero, is a scandal. And in third place, they love a redemption story. A Shakespearian race, really, the British.

The Irish, more schooled in misery, love a romantic tragedy. Especially if the 'hero' suffers and dies (see cú chulain, Parnell, O'Connell, 1916, losng to a Henry handball...).

More than a few, we build them up then bring them down, the higher they rise the harder they fall

I can remember the press hoo-haa when Neil Lennon stuck a nut on Mary Poppins boot

 

[Hugh Januss]

personally i don't believe in evans or sastre but am merely sceptical re wiggo

the difference? team sky are more vocal in claims of being clean

martinvickers sums up the whole team sky debate in a couple of posts above

however i consider the leinders affair less of a pr disaster............outside

the clinic...................who cares?

as to total disillusionment in cycle sport.............the show goes on

i watch the sport as keenly as ever............reflecting on the truth of what

occurs separately

the sad part is not knowing who to trust good guys are tarnished / bad guys

get away with cheating

Mark L

Being "vocal" about being clean is some sort of evidence of cleanliness?
Let's check in with the guy who "survived, arguably a death sentence of cancer, and would never put dangerous substances in his body" oh yeah and "passed over 500 tests" too, and see how that argument holds up.
To me the similarities are almost uncanny.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Neither, he was interrupted before finishing his post. He left off the period at the end of his last sentence, and more importantly the little "" thingie.

 

[Benotti69]

And the US will never go after Lance, oh wait a minute

lance brought that on himself by being the biggest @$$hòlè in sport

 

[HL2037]

Since last years tour I haven't felt like watching cycling. The obvious way that team Sky has taken over team Postal's old role as the protected team is a joke and the bull**** they feed us is an insult. It's not a race anymore, it's a show and a very boring one too. The good thing is that this summer I am not going to spend every sunny afternoon in july in front of the TV.

 

[del1962]

Since last years tour I haven't felt like watching cycling. The obvious way that team Sky has taken over team Postal's old role as the protected team is a joke and the bull**** they feed us is an insult. It's not a race anymore, it's a show and a very boring one too. The good thing is that this summer I am not going to spend every sunny afternoon in july in front of the TV.

Sky may be doping or may not be (I don't think they are), but pleasew don't give me this protected team crp, in makes you seem like a complete ntter

 

[MarkvW]

lance brought that on himself by being the biggest @$$hòlè in sport

That doesn't make any sense. Sport is populated with lots of jerks.

Lance got brought down by Floyd, pure and simple. Had Floyd not snitched, Lance would never have been caught. This isn't a character-based drama, it's just antidoping enforcement (and its consequences).

If Lance would have come clean and told the truth like the USPS snitches, then Lance would have gotten the same deal as those snitches.

If Floyd would have snitched off people other than Lance, then Tygart would have responded to that snitching with the same level of intensity that he brought to Lance and the others.

 

[doperhopper]

... and let's not forget The One who was disillusioned waaay before it was cool

(from another discussion)

What Museeuw now confesses, is what Edwig Van Hooydonck has always said. He's a tragic figure, having been a suberb rider at a young age, winning the Tour of Flanders twice (the first time aged 22!) and finishing 3rd twice in Paris-Roubaix. He ended his career at 30 (in 1996), disillusioned and saying mediocre cyclists suddenly going twice as fast as he did (it started about 1992-1993, when he ideed couldn't compete in the big races anymore).

It's for this reason that it's so important to get the cheaters to confess, as it is somewhat of a redemption to those riders doing it the clean way.

His words two or three years ago:
"I continued training like a beast, but I just couldn't keep up anymore. Rolf Aldag suddenly passed me in a time trial. From 1992-1993, all hell brake lose, except at our team where Jan Raas got in docters that pointed out the dangers of doping