- Aug 29, 2013
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ASO clearly need to learn from the Giro organizers. Not enough medium mountain stages, where it's very hard to control things.
If they rode this stage backwards it would probably be a little more interesting.
If they rode this stage backwards it would probably be a little more interesting.
- Aug 6, 2010
- 6,884
- 6,216
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Re:
As soon as I saw this route my thoughts were; "To The Great LS, is this the worst stage design since stage 9 of the '09 Tour?
But it seems that you've already answered this question
If people want high mountains on the penultimate weekend, then we need to go back to - the Armstrong days - not back ending the grand tours so much. The Giro seems to have started - that's a good way to get people offside, blame the Giro - this, and the Tour has followed suit. Stages 14 and 15 were often the second chain of high mountains, with lumpy stages and a long ITT (not sure if anyone remembers those?) coming thereafter. If you 'have' to have sprint stages then I've always thought that it's better to put some of them late in the race, after all of the high mountains. Sprinters are then rewarded for getting over the climbs, although they could make the time limits harsher to make this reward more deserved. At least the Pettachi's are generally removed from the equation by that stage of the race.
Anyway, I will not be sitting up late - in Australia - to watch this stage 15. Like Rodriguez I'll probably take it easy in the autobus until stage 18.
Libertine Seguros said:
As soon as I saw this route my thoughts were; "To The Great LS, is this the worst stage design since stage 9 of the '09 Tour?
But it seems that you've already answered this question
If people want high mountains on the penultimate weekend, then we need to go back to - the Armstrong days - not back ending the grand tours so much. The Giro seems to have started - that's a good way to get people offside, blame the Giro
- this, and the Tour has followed suit. Stages 14 and 15 were often the second chain of high mountains, with lumpy stages and a long ITT (not sure if anyone remembers those?) coming thereafter. If you 'have' to have sprint stages then I've always thought that it's better to put some of them late in the race, after all of the high mountains. Sprinters are then rewarded for getting over the climbs, although they could make the time limits harsher to make this reward more deserved. At least the Pettachi's are generally removed from the equation by that stage of the race.Anyway, I will not be sitting up late - in Australia - to watch this stage 15. Like Rodriguez I'll probably take it easy in the autobus until stage 18.
- May 27, 2014
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Cavendish has always been great in sprint stages between the Pyrenees and the Alps, and even though he no longer has the sheer speed of the untouchable 2008-2011 Cavendish, I think his climbing and durability has improved. Even if he gets dropped on the Cat 2 climb, I expect him to get back on in the 50km run to the finish.
Perhaps Sagan will pay for his exertions over the last two days, and Greipel looked a bit scraped up after his fall so might not be at his best.
Perhaps Sagan will pay for his exertions over the last two days, and Greipel looked a bit scraped up after his fall so might not be at his best.
Cavendish will take it. He seems fitter in terms of climbing prowess so shouldn't be as tired by the end.
- Sep 7, 2014
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Gigs_98 said:I really don't get why you complain. Why should you do an interesting mountain stage in the massif central when you can do the 100th manse-gap finish, absolutely everybody is sick of, on the next day
I think the Manse Gap finish is a good finish, it is better than the mountain stages in the Alps this year.
However this stage is a bit of joke.
- Sep 7, 2014
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Re:
The rest day is on Tuesday any way. They have the stage to Gap, then a rest day in Gap, then a stage start not in Gap, then a stage start in Gap. Gap must like spending money on the tour. We have 4 Alps mountain stages and not one of them is any good, weak and short stages.
manafana said:
The rest day is on Tuesday any way. They have the stage to Gap, then a rest day in Gap, then a stage start not in Gap, then a stage start in Gap. Gap must like spending money on the tour. We have 4 Alps mountain stages and not one of them is any good, weak and short stages.
- Mar 13, 2009
- 29,413
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Not sure if there is a link to the climb anywhere but here is this one http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Col-de-l%27Escrinet&qryMountainID=6043
After the lead up it is steeper for a time but then levels out to 5-6%.
Hoping that it turns into a pursuit race between several different teams after the 2nd cat climb.
After the lead up it is steeper for a time but then levels out to 5-6%.
Hoping that it turns into a pursuit race between several different teams after the 2nd cat climb.
Dekker_Tifosi said:
I think it might also have something to do with the masses on mountain finishes just getting far too big if you do them on a Sunday.
- Sep 7, 2014
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Dutchsmurf said:
They are doing Alpe d'Huez on a Saturday and that is going to be totally overcrowded with idiots.
- Jun 16, 2009
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- Jul 12, 2012
- 8,975
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Didn't Cav win a stage with the Esrinet climb close to the finish a few years ago? I think HTC days around 09,10?
I expect him to be there at the finish unless they fail to reel in th break.
I expect him to be there at the finish unless they fail to reel in th break.
- Feb 20, 2010
- 33,063
- 15,253
- 28,180
Re: Re:
The Giro still tends to put more GC-relevant stages on the penultimate weekend than the Tour.
The last few years, the penultimate weekends of GTs:
GIRO
2006: La Thuile (mountain stage with San Carlo) & Domodossola (mountain stage with GSB & Simplonpass)
2007: Bergamo (intermediate stage, last climb 35k out) & Tre Cime di Lavaredo (queen stage & MTF)
2008: Alpe di Pampeago (MTF after Manghen) & Passo di Fedaia (queen stage & MTF)
2009: Bologna San Luca (intermediate stage, HTF) & Faenza (intermediate stage)
2010: Asolo (mountain stage with Monte Grappa) & Monte Zoncolan (MTF)
2011: Monte Zoncolan (MTF) & Rifugio Gardeccia (queen stage & MTF)
2012: Cervinia (MTF) & Piani dei Resinelli (MTF)
2013: Jafferau (MTF - weather-ruined) & Galibier (MTF)
2014: Santuario di Oropa (MTF) & Pian del Montecampione (MTF)
2015: Valdobbiadene (ITT) & Madonna di Campiglio (MTF)
The Giro tends to use the penultimate weekend for mountain stages as they head into the final week in the north of the country; the only exception was 2009 with the route finishing to the south. Alarmingly there are rather too many MTFs for my liking in recent times, although when you put the queen stage directly after the hardest MTF of the race you do guarantee two days of action, like in 2011. The ITT was an interesting experiment in 2015, but was still an important GC stage.
VUELTA
2006: Cuenca (ITT) & Factoría Ford (flat stage)
2007: Villacarillo (intermediate stage, last climb 15km out) & Granada (mountain stage with El Purche)
2008: Alto del Angliru (MTF) & Fuentes de Invierno (MTF)
2009: Sierra Nevada (queen stage & MTF) & Sierra de la Pandera (MTF)
2010: Peña Cabarga (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2011: La Farrapona (queen stage & MTF) & Alto del Angliru (MTF)
2012: Ancares/Cruz de Cespedosa (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2013: Andorra-Coll de la Gallina (MTF) & Peyragudes (queen stage & MTF)
2014: La Camperona (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2015: Fuente del Chivo (MTF) & Jitu d'Escarandí (MTF)
Obviously the Vuelta has gone MTF crazy in the last few years, but there's still been a tendency to ensure mountain stages on the penultimate weekend. Many of these are Javier Guillén's patented Unipuerto stages (most to Lagos de Covadonga end up being that way no matter what the route planners attempt). The 2006 route was one of the best Vuelta routes in recent memory but the pacing was very poor, looking at that weekend. Either way, both the Giro and the Tour are in the midst of a run of ensuring they maximise their audience with GC-relevant stages on the weekend (remember Zomegnan's nuts 2011 route was mainly about the chronic audience figures flat stages were getting in Italy at the time compared to the mountains).
TOUR:
2006: Montélimar (flat stage) & Gap (intermediate stage, Col du Manse)
2007: Plateau de Beille (MTF) & Loudenvielle (mountain stage with Balès & Peyresourde)
2008: Digne-les-Bains (flat stage) & Prato Nevoso (MTF)
2009: Besançon (flat stage) & Verbier (MTF)
2010: Ax-3-Domaines (MTF) & Luchon (mountain stage with Balès)
2011: Plateau de Beille (MTF) & Montpelier (flat stage)
2012: Cap d'Agde (flat stage) & Foix (intermediate stage with Mur de Peguère)
2013: Lyon (hilly stage) & Mont Ventoux (MTF)
2014: Risoul 1850 (MTF) & Nîmes (flat stage)
2015: Montée Laurent Jalabert (intermediate stage, HTF) & Valence (flat stage)
As you can see, the Tour is FAR more likely to stick a sprinter's stage on the penultimate weekend, with several more non-GC-relevant stages than the Giro and Vuelta put together. The best years for the GC-relevance of the penultimate weekend are 2007 (when there were a few relatively tame days in the final week between the Aubisque stage and the final TT) and 2010. In both of these the final mountain stage was stage 17 and the ITT on stage 20 was the last moment of GC relevance. It therefore seems that the push to backload the race and make the last few stages relevant hamstrings the Tour... but only so long as they're unwilling to do proper intermediate or mountain stages in less commonly-used areas. Mont Ventoux sitting between the Alps and the Massif Central is an obvious candidate, but I'd love to see the Pyrenees at the end of week 1, the Alps at the end of week 2, and then going back toward Paris via the Jura or even the Vosges, leaving us late mountain stages in less obvious areas. Or, if they are going to backload the Alps, have some GC relevant stages in the Massif Central (doesn't need to be Col de la Lusette MTF even if that were possible, you know) or Alpes-Maritimes and the Vercors (assuming that we still need the Alpine and Pyrenean stages to be in the same areas as usual due to money)?
Yesterday's stage was an example of a good way to use the transition between the two main mountain ranges, though you don't always have to use Mende. Here are a few stages from major races that could be used as an example of the kind of stages we could use on a penultimate weekend if they still wanted to backload the Alps (for some, the categorizations would need amending!):
(would be better with Col de Chansert before Col du Béal - that would give us a legit mountain stage in the Massif)
(even better to finish at Saint-Chamond or do the Croix de Chaubouret MTF)
I would also desperately like to see the Col de l'Œillon back, and the Col de la Lusette, which is popularly linked to a Mont Aigoual MTF by traceurs.
You're thinking of Cipo. Ale-Jet could get over quite a few climbs. There's even a Giro stage in 2004 where he went over Tonale with the breakaway and got dropped on the Gavia.gregrowlerson said:If people want high mountains on the penultimate weekend, then we need to go back to - the Armstrong days - not back ending the grand tours so much. The Giro seems to have started - that's a good way to get people offside, blame the Giro
The Giro still tends to put more GC-relevant stages on the penultimate weekend than the Tour.
The last few years, the penultimate weekends of GTs:
GIRO
2006: La Thuile (mountain stage with San Carlo) & Domodossola (mountain stage with GSB & Simplonpass)
2007: Bergamo (intermediate stage, last climb 35k out) & Tre Cime di Lavaredo (queen stage & MTF)
2008: Alpe di Pampeago (MTF after Manghen) & Passo di Fedaia (queen stage & MTF)
2009: Bologna San Luca (intermediate stage, HTF) & Faenza (intermediate stage)
2010: Asolo (mountain stage with Monte Grappa) & Monte Zoncolan (MTF)
2011: Monte Zoncolan (MTF) & Rifugio Gardeccia (queen stage & MTF)
2012: Cervinia (MTF) & Piani dei Resinelli (MTF)
2013: Jafferau (MTF - weather-ruined) & Galibier (MTF)
2014: Santuario di Oropa (MTF) & Pian del Montecampione (MTF)
2015: Valdobbiadene (ITT) & Madonna di Campiglio (MTF)
The Giro tends to use the penultimate weekend for mountain stages as they head into the final week in the north of the country; the only exception was 2009 with the route finishing to the south. Alarmingly there are rather too many MTFs for my liking in recent times, although when you put the queen stage directly after the hardest MTF of the race you do guarantee two days of action, like in 2011. The ITT was an interesting experiment in 2015, but was still an important GC stage.
VUELTA
2006: Cuenca (ITT) & Factoría Ford (flat stage)
2007: Villacarillo (intermediate stage, last climb 15km out) & Granada (mountain stage with El Purche)
2008: Alto del Angliru (MTF) & Fuentes de Invierno (MTF)
2009: Sierra Nevada (queen stage & MTF) & Sierra de la Pandera (MTF)
2010: Peña Cabarga (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2011: La Farrapona (queen stage & MTF) & Alto del Angliru (MTF)
2012: Ancares/Cruz de Cespedosa (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2013: Andorra-Coll de la Gallina (MTF) & Peyragudes (queen stage & MTF)
2014: La Camperona (MTF) & Lagos de Covadonga (MTF)
2015: Fuente del Chivo (MTF) & Jitu d'Escarandí (MTF)
Obviously the Vuelta has gone MTF crazy in the last few years, but there's still been a tendency to ensure mountain stages on the penultimate weekend. Many of these are Javier Guillén's patented Unipuerto stages (most to Lagos de Covadonga end up being that way no matter what the route planners attempt). The 2006 route was one of the best Vuelta routes in recent memory but the pacing was very poor, looking at that weekend. Either way, both the Giro and the Tour are in the midst of a run of ensuring they maximise their audience with GC-relevant stages on the weekend (remember Zomegnan's nuts 2011 route was mainly about the chronic audience figures flat stages were getting in Italy at the time compared to the mountains).
TOUR:
2006: Montélimar (flat stage) & Gap (intermediate stage, Col du Manse)
2007: Plateau de Beille (MTF) & Loudenvielle (mountain stage with Balès & Peyresourde)
2008: Digne-les-Bains (flat stage) & Prato Nevoso (MTF)
2009: Besançon (flat stage) & Verbier (MTF)
2010: Ax-3-Domaines (MTF) & Luchon (mountain stage with Balès)
2011: Plateau de Beille (MTF) & Montpelier (flat stage)
2012: Cap d'Agde (flat stage) & Foix (intermediate stage with Mur de Peguère)
2013: Lyon (hilly stage) & Mont Ventoux (MTF)
2014: Risoul 1850 (MTF) & Nîmes (flat stage)
2015: Montée Laurent Jalabert (intermediate stage, HTF) & Valence (flat stage)
As you can see, the Tour is FAR more likely to stick a sprinter's stage on the penultimate weekend, with several more non-GC-relevant stages than the Giro and Vuelta put together. The best years for the GC-relevance of the penultimate weekend are 2007 (when there were a few relatively tame days in the final week between the Aubisque stage and the final TT) and 2010. In both of these the final mountain stage was stage 17 and the ITT on stage 20 was the last moment of GC relevance. It therefore seems that the push to backload the race and make the last few stages relevant hamstrings the Tour... but only so long as they're unwilling to do proper intermediate or mountain stages in less commonly-used areas. Mont Ventoux sitting between the Alps and the Massif Central is an obvious candidate, but I'd love to see the Pyrenees at the end of week 1, the Alps at the end of week 2, and then going back toward Paris via the Jura or even the Vosges, leaving us late mountain stages in less obvious areas. Or, if they are going to backload the Alps, have some GC relevant stages in the Massif Central (doesn't need to be Col de la Lusette MTF even if that were possible, you know) or Alpes-Maritimes and the Vercors (assuming that we still need the Alpine and Pyrenean stages to be in the same areas as usual due to money)?
Yesterday's stage was an example of a good way to use the transition between the two main mountain ranges, though you don't always have to use Mende. Here are a few stages from major races that could be used as an example of the kind of stages we could use on a penultimate weekend if they still wanted to backload the Alps (for some, the categorizations would need amending!):
(would be better with Col de Chansert before Col du Béal - that would give us a legit mountain stage in the Massif)
(even better to finish at Saint-Chamond or do the Croix de Chaubouret MTF)
I would also desperately like to see the Col de l'Œillon back, and the Col de la Lusette, which is popularly linked to a Mont Aigoual MTF by traceurs.
- Feb 20, 2010
- 33,063
- 15,253
- 28,180
Re:
That was 2009, stage 19. Finished in Aubenas, so they climbed the other side of the climb, which only averages around 4% but is a bit longer.Pricey_sky said:
- Aug 4, 2010
- 11,337
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- 0
- Jun 7, 2010
- 19,196
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- 28,180
I think in 2010 Revel stage was on a Saturday, Ax-3 Domaines on Sunday, Luchon on Monday, Pau on Tuesday and the rest day an Wednesday (!).
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