Tour de France 2015 Stage 16: Bourg-de-Péage-Gap 201km

[yetanothergreenworld]

Re: Re:

Here is the video showing TJVG touch Barguil

https://vid.me/Zp3H

But as others have said, he then tried to cut people up on corners later on, so TJVG is not sufficient to explain Barguil's poor descending into corners.

I see a lot of harsh words for Barguil, but when you are pushed at 60-70k/hr just before a curve to the inside, like Barguil was touched by Van Garderen, there is simply not much you can do to get through that curve in a good line.

Indeed, if you read the comments on Facebook people are confusing him with William Bonnet (WB, get it?), who started the crash that took Cancellara out. "This is the second crash he's caused -- he should be relegated -- but they won't because he's French" etc. etc. I'm getting SO tired of nationalistic polemic in this Tour . . .

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Here is the video showing TJVG touch Barguil

https://vid.me/Zp3H

But as others have said, he then tried to cut people up on corners later on, so TJVG is not sufficient to explain Barguil's poor descending into corners.

I see a lot of harsh words for Barguil, but when you are pushed at 60-70k/hr just before a curve to the inside, like Barguil was touched by Van Garderen, there is simply not much you can do to get through that curve in a good line.

Indeed, if you read the comments on Facebook people are confusing him with William Bonnet (WB, get it?), who started the crash that took Cancellara out. "This is the second crash he's caused -- he should be relegated -- but they won't because he's French" etc. etc. I'm getting SO tired of nationalistic polemic in this Tour . . .

Really?? That's quite.. embarrassing

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

G Thomas interview hilarious! P****d at Barguil for riding like a maniac, but more concerned about his time loss than his injury. Whatta strongman. Gotta give him credit.

Alberto leading the 'sprint' to the line of the GC group
shows he is still concerned that Super G will overtake
him in the Alps.

I think it was more him asserting his authority, like Froome

 

[Stelvio]

Re:

Here is the video showing TJVG touch Barguil

https://vid.me/Zp3H

But as others have said, he then tried to cut people up on corners later on, so TJVG is not sufficient to explain Barguil's poor descending into corners.

That's a good angle. I think he misreads the turn. This is actually an intersection so the road is much wider at the far end than usual (Sagan also nearly overshot it). But of course, he ended up in a place where he shouldn't be.

It is not reasonable to make the route completely secure. Look at the stage 3 crash where they nearly ended up in another pole. Should every pole along 3500 km be padded? Should bends like this (on the descent from Col d'Allos on wednesday) have safety nets? I don't know.

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

I can't decide what I like more, that a rider I like won a stage, or that Sagan lost again.

I originally put "finally", but I like both Štybar and Purito. I also kind of have a soft spot for the Gorilla because of the unnecessary abuse he took in the Cav rivalry days.

I can never understand the mind of a professional who will guarantee their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan.

I can understand not working at some stages, but when the other guy went up the road hanging around on Sagan's wheel was weak as dog water.

Nobody in that break was going to beat Sagan in a sprint. Once Plaza was gone, if the others chased him and Sagan went with them, they'd lose. Their hope was that Sagan would tire himself out chasing and they could profit with a late attack. Sagan, for his part, wanted a bit of help on the climb to keep him close enough to catch Rubinho on the descent, so may have held a bit back.

It wasn't a case of guaranteeing their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan, it was more that helping chase down was a form of swapping one type of guaranteed loss for another.

However, if any riders did actively ride solely for the aim of making Sagan lose, that's an admirable goal in and of itself.

Come on, Libertine, dont be so rough on him. What do you think of his descent? Deep down I know you think it was really impressive and a fine study in how to ride your bike. You just won't admit it

 

[yetanothergreenworld]

Re: Re:

Here is the video showing TJVG touch Barguil

https://vid.me/Zp3H

But as others have said, he then tried to cut people up on corners later on, so TJVG is not sufficient to explain Barguil's poor descending into corners.

I see a lot of harsh words for Barguil, but when you are pushed at 60-70k/hr just before a curve to the inside, like Barguil was touched by Van Garderen, there is simply not much you can do to get through that curve in a good line.

Indeed, if you read the comments on Facebook people are confusing him with William Bonnet (WB, get it?), who started the crash that took Cancellara out. "This is the second crash he's caused -- he should be relegated -- but they won't because he's French" etc. etc. I'm getting SO tired of nationalistic polemic in this Tour . . .

Really?? That's quite.. embarrassing

I'm totally serious. Everyone commenting on Facebook thinks he's the guy who took out Fabian. Bob Roll is probably saying it too, but I don't get that channel.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Come on, Libertine, dont be so rough on him. What do you think of his descent? Deep down I know you think it was really impressive and a fine study in how to ride your bike. You just won't admit it

The guy is an immense bike handler and his descending is superb.

But I despise him and anything that prevents him winning without actively injuring him is a-ok in my book.

 

[jalep]

Sounds like I missed an interesting stage

Maybe worth watching...

Congrats to Rueben Plaza

 

[Netserk]

Re:

Actually, it's more because of the opinion that racing for ultimately meaningless GC positions is largely what's killing the spectacle. Gesink's actions today were just a reminder.

You don't need to agree, of course, but don't misrepresent the opposing opinion either.

So what was he suppose to do then, lets Nibali get free time on him? Or what? I dont get this logic at all.

Attack or chillax. Defensive riding for 8th on an intermediate stage before the Alpes is lame (generally), but I'll give you that today was pretty harmless and it didn't change anything.

I can't decide what I like more, that a rider I like won a stage, or that Sagan lost again.

I originally put "finally", but I like both Štybar and Purito. I also kind of have a soft spot for the Gorilla because of the unnecessary abuse he took in the Cav rivalry days.

Why do you like Štybar?

 

[bassano]

Re: Re:

Why do you like Štybar?

Yeah, good question anyway, from my side he is not so interesting, he more rely on his team and their strategy then on himself but attack he did when he won stage was smart one, good timing

 

[cycladianpirate]

Regarding the Thomas incident, would people get a grip? Is G right to be annoyed? Of course. Was Barguil reckless? Evidently.

But to suggest that all telegraph poles and, while we're at it, trees, should be padded on descents is madness. Wouldn't it be easier to wrap all the riders up in cotton wool from the start?

These things happen (and not just in cycling). Some of the comments on this forum sound like SJWs whining about "life not being fair".

 

[Carl0880]

Re: Re:

I can't decide what I like more, that a rider I like won a stage, or that Sagan lost again.

I originally put "finally", but I like both Štybar and Purito. I also kind of have a soft spot for the Gorilla because of the unnecessary abuse he took in the Cav rivalry days.

I can never understand the mind of a professional who will guarantee their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan.

I can understand not working at some stages, but when the other guy went up the road hanging around on Sagan's wheel was weak as dog water.

Nobody in that break was going to beat Sagan in a sprint. Once Plaza was gone, if the others chased him and Sagan went with them, they'd lose. Their hope was that Sagan would tire himself out chasing and they could profit with a late attack. Sagan, for his part, wanted a bit of help on the climb to keep him close enough to catch Rubinho on the descent, so may have held a bit back.

It wasn't a case of guaranteeing their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan, it was more that helping chase down was a form of swapping one type of guaranteed loss for another.

However, if any riders did actively ride solely for the aim of making Sagan lose, that's an admirable goal in and of itself.

First I agree, I was glad to hear that Plaza won the stage. Quiet guy that does his job. Is a solid TT and climber, just doesn't have that last 2 percent to be among the best. Constant Professional.

I disagree with the tactics once Plaza went. If this was the stage with a flat 20 km finish, then I understand someone's thinking being making Sagan chase. We are talking though that the break was on a climb with a 6-7 percent gradient. I see no reason why you don't attempt an attack to dislodge Sagan and get away clear. Eventhough he was riding strong, and an adequate climber (especially for a sprinter), you still got a descent potential to drop him on the climb. This doesn't factor in the fact he was in the breakaway for the 3rd consecutive day, in addition to the heat. If your goal was a stage win, then you should have attacked. Especially someone like Riblon or Pantano, who are far more a climber type. Some could argue that you have a better chance of dropping him on the Manse then you have beating him a sprint even if you let him do all the work.

In my opinion, they should have attacked to try and catch Plaza, then after the descent, you have the 4 or so flat km left. If Sagan is still with you, then you can pull the tactic of making him do the work to catch Plaza. If he is worn down enough from chasing for those 4 by himself to lose the sprint, then you wouldn't have a chance from letting him do it from the top of the climb. I personally think you should always try to take the opportunity to take the stage, and not worry about the others as much. Look at Van Avermaet the other day, he just saw the rider (Sagan) catching his wheel and he just kicked it as much as he could not have any idea who it is.

You have 0 chance of winning if you don't Plaza. Do what you can to catch him, and if someone like Sagan still can hang on and then win, then sometimes all you can do is say Chapeau to him and give it a go later.

 

[Eagle]

Re: Re:

I can't decide what I like more, that a rider I like won a stage, or that Sagan lost again.

I originally put "finally", but I like both Štybar and Purito. I also kind of have a soft spot for the Gorilla because of the unnecessary abuse he took in the Cav rivalry days.

I can never understand the mind of a professional who will guarantee their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan.

I can understand not working at some stages, but when the other guy went up the road hanging around on Sagan's wheel was weak as dog water.

Nobody in that break was going to beat Sagan in a sprint. Once Plaza was gone, if the others chased him and Sagan went with them, they'd lose. Their hope was that Sagan would tire himself out chasing and they could profit with a late attack. Sagan, for his part, wanted a bit of help on the climb to keep him close enough to catch Rubinho on the descent, so may have held a bit back.

It wasn't a case of guaranteeing their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan, it was more that helping chase down was a form of swapping one type of guaranteed loss for another.

However, if any riders did actively ride solely for the aim of making Sagan lose, that's an admirable goal in and of itself.

First I agree, I was glad to hear that Plaza won the stage. Quiet guy that does his job. Is a solid TT and climber, just doesn't have that last 2 percent to be among the best. Constant Professional.

I disagree with the tactics once Plaza went. If this was the stage with a flat 20 km finish, then I understand someone's thinking being making Sagan chase. We are talking though that the break was on a climb with a 6-7 percent gradient. I see no reason why you don't attempt an attack to dislodge Sagan and get away clear. Eventhough he was riding strong, and an adequate climber (especially for a sprinter), you still got a descent potential to drop him on the climb. This doesn't factor in the fact he was in the breakaway for the 3rd consecutive day, in addition to the heat. If your goal was a stage win, then you should have attacked. Especially someone like Riblon or Pantano, who are far more a climber type. Some could argue that you have a better chance of dropping him on the Manse then you have beating him a sprint even if you let him do all the work.

In my opinion, they should have attacked to try and catch Plaza, then after the descent, you have the 4 or so flat km left. If Sagan is still with you, then you can pull the tactic of making him do the work to catch Plaza. If he is worn down enough from chasing for those 4 by himself to lose the sprint, then you wouldn't have a chance from letting him do it from the top of the climb. I personally think you should always try to take the opportunity to take the stage, and not worry about the others as much. Look at Van Avermaet the other day, he just saw the rider (Sagan) catching his wheel and he just kicked it as much as he could not have any idea who it is.

You have 0 chance of winning if you don't Plaza. Do what you can to catch him, and if someone like Sagan still can hang on and then win, then sometimes all you can do is say Chapeau to him and give it a go later.

Riblon attacked a few times he just wasn't strong enough and Pantano was dropped early on the climb, Sagan was just stronger than them

 

[Afrank]

Re:

Regarding the Thomas incident, would people get a grip? Is G right to be annoyed? Of course. Was Barguil reckless? Evidently.

But to suggest that all telegraph poles and, while we're at it, trees, should be padded on descents is madness. Wouldn't it be easier to wrap all the riders up in cotton wool from the start?

These things happen (and not just in cycling). Some of the comments on this forum sound like SJWs whining about "life not being fair".

 

[djpbaltimore]

A number of riders did attack on the climb, but Sagan was covering all those attacks. In truth, most of them were pretty weak, but that is mostly due to the fact that most of the riders in the break were not great climbers, getting dropped initially by Sagan on the early slopes before catching back up. They weren't exactly sitting on Sagan's wheel all the way up.

 

[Taxus4a]

Today we couldnt see more in the climb becouse of the wind. people tryied but we miss a Quintana attack. it is not a good climb for him, not very long, not very step no very high, but enought for him to do a good attack with tail wind, but he is a light rider, and wind is a problem for him in this kind of climb.

I am happy about Plaza, he deserves this.

Nibali did a really strong attack in the climb and he descended as expected.

Sagan was amazing, I am not a fan, but he is doing an espectacular Tour, helping Contador and in the fight of most of the stage, strong in all the terreins.

Contador tried, he is brave, I hope he keep on that-

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

Re: Re:

I can't decide what I like more, that a rider I like won a stage, or that Sagan lost again.

I originally put "finally", but I like both Štybar and Purito. I also kind of have a soft spot for the Gorilla because of the unnecessary abuse he took in the Cav rivalry days.

I can never understand the mind of a professional who will guarantee their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan.

I can understand not working at some stages, but when the other guy went up the road hanging around on Sagan's wheel was weak as dog water.

Nobody in that break was going to beat Sagan in a sprint. Once Plaza was gone, if the others chased him and Sagan went with them, they'd lose. Their hope was that Sagan would tire himself out chasing and they could profit with a late attack. Sagan, for his part, wanted a bit of help on the climb to keep him close enough to catch Rubinho on the descent, so may have held a bit back.

It wasn't a case of guaranteeing their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan, it was more that helping chase down was a form of swapping one type of guaranteed loss for another.

However, if any riders did actively ride solely for the aim of making Sagan lose, that's an admirable goal in and of itself.

First I agree, I was glad to hear that Plaza won the stage. Quiet guy that does his job. Is a solid TT and climber, just doesn't have that last 2 percent to be among the best. Constant Professional.

I disagree with the tactics once Plaza went. If this was the stage with a flat 20 km finish, then I understand someone's thinking being making Sagan chase. We are talking though that the break was on a climb with a 6-7 percent gradient. I see no reason why you don't attempt an attack to dislodge Sagan and get away clear. Eventhough he was riding strong, and an adequate climber (especially for a sprinter), you still got a descent potential to drop him on the climb. This doesn't factor in the fact he was in the breakaway for the 3rd consecutive day, in addition to the heat. If your goal was a stage win, then you should have attacked. Especially someone like Riblon or Pantano, who are far more a climber type. Some could argue that you have a better chance of dropping him on the Manse then you have beating him a sprint even if you let him do all the work.

In my opinion, they should have attacked to try and catch Plaza, then after the descent, you have the 4 or so flat km left. If Sagan is still with you, then you can pull the tactic of making him do the work to catch Plaza. If he is worn down enough from chasing for those 4 by himself to lose the sprint, then you wouldn't have a chance from letting him do it from the top of the climb. I personally think you should always try to take the opportunity to take the stage, and not worry about the others as much. Look at Van Avermaet the other day, he just saw the rider (Sagan) catching his wheel and he just kicked it as much as he could not have any idea who it is.

You have 0 chance of winning if you don't Plaza. Do what you can to catch him, and if someone like Sagan still can hang on and then win, then sometimes all you can do is say Chapeau to him and give it a go later.

Riblon attacked a few times he just wasn't strong enough and Pantano was dropped early on the climb, Sagan was just stronger than them

Exactly. The tactic of attacking to try to drop Sagan was clearly the correct one, but when they tried, he showed he was strong enough to follow them. Once that became clear, what was the point in working to give Sagan the win instead of Plaza?

 

[Afrank]

Re: Re:

Here is the video showing TJVG touch Barguil

https://vid.me/Zp3H

But as others have said, he then tried to cut people up on corners later on, so TJVG is not sufficient to explain Barguil's poor descending into corners.

That's a good angle. I think he misreads the turn. This is actually an intersection so the road is much wider at the far end than usual (Sagan also nearly overshot it). But of course, he ended up in a place where he shouldn't be.

It is not reasonable to make the route completely secure. Look at the stage 3 crash where they nearly ended up in another pole. Should every pole along 3500 km be padded? Should bends like this (on the descent from Col d'Allos on wednesday) have safety nets? I don't know.

Obviously it would be impossible to wrap every pole. If anything a pre-race check could be done where they could identify which places might be particularly dangerous.

They could assume a pole was dangerous if it was at a difficult corner at a place in the race where riders were sure to be pushing it. Of course it would take time and resources which they may not currently have to spare.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Unless he is too tired or has changed his racing schedule, him and Valverde were to be joint leaders (like last years Vuelta) for this years edition. If all those riders line up it could be a pretty spectacular race. Fresh Landa/Aru vs Valverde/Quintana/Froome/Nibali

I do not thing any of them will ride Vuelta, maybe Valverde as part of the preparation for worlds, Froome no way, Quintana small chance, as Nibali especially with Landa, Aru there

Froome has dropped several hints he plans to.

 

[Gigs_98]

I really don't understand why gesink and valverde chased nibali but okay, thats there own will so you can hardly blame them for it. However I am really frustrated to see a good nibali after he lost so much time. Just imagine how great this tour could be without stage 10.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Why do you like Štybar?

I've met him a couple of times at CX and road events, found him friendly, engaging.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Why do you like Štybar?

I've met him a couple of times at CX and road events, found him friendly, engaging.

So you are only a meeting away from being a Gerrans fan?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Why do you like Štybar?

I've met him a couple of times at CX and road events, found him friendly, engaging.

So you are only a meeting away from being a Gerrans fan?

I kind of liked Štybar from 'cross though. Gerrans has the reputation of being a nice guy, but I could never get over the way he races. He's like the reverse of Sagan.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Why do you like Štybar?

I've met him a couple of times at CX and road events, found him friendly, engaging.

So you are only a meeting away from being a Gerrans fan?

Nobody would ever admit that. People would cry they want a forum ban for such persons.

 

[Museeuw]

Re: Re:

Nobody in that break was going to beat Sagan in a sprint. Once Plaza was gone, if the others chased him and Sagan went with them, they'd lose. Their hope was that Sagan would tire himself out chasing and they could profit with a late attack. Sagan, for his part, wanted a bit of help on the climb to keep him close enough to catch Rubinho on the descent, so may have held a bit back.

It wasn't a case of guaranteeing their own loss to ensure they aren't beaten by Sagan, it was more that helping chase down was a form of swapping one type of guaranteed loss for another.

However, if any riders did actively ride solely for the aim of making Sagan lose, that's an admirable goal in and of itself.

The guy is an immense bike handler and his descending is superb.

But I despise him and anything that prevents him winning without actively injuring him is a-ok in my book.

I couldn't agree more.

How many times sagan himself has chosen not to pull others to the line. Why there is no one crying he is not riding for victory at those times?

Ok, it's not an easy question if you should chase or let someone go. Or work with someone or not.

On stage 6 when Styby won I think if sagan had immediately reacted he could have pull Styby back with reasonable effort ie he still would have had chance to win. He didn't react and he had zero chance to win. I would say he should have even try.

What about today. It should be obvious for everyone that every rider in the break is going to lose against sagan if they are together on top of Col de Manse. So if they want to ride actively they should have a realistic plan how they are on top of Col de Manse at least 30 sec before sagan. Without that kind of executable plan their chance to win is zero - no difference if they ride or just wheelsuck.

If you want to blame sagan's break away companions it's not they were too passive. With those circumstances they were rather too active if you think of whole stage not just the end of it.