Tour de France 2020 | Stage 17 (Grenoble - Méribel Col de la Loze, 170 km)

[Libertine Seguros]

On general anti-super-domestique principle? Or for for particular anti-Kuss reasons?

For saying after stage 6 that there is no point in either riding hard, or trying to gain time, if a stage doesn't end on the steepest climb of the day.

I have then taken this and run with it to exaggerated effect after he actually appeared to live up to this ridiculous suggestion which came back to bite them (losing crucial time in a downhill finish by letting the biggest rival go), after Jumbo appeared to give him the day off on stage 15 because it was his birthday and because Kuss basically spent most of the tour not actually being expended but instead riding shotgun whilst looking comfortable while Dumoulin did so much work on the front and the DS never told him to empty himself and let Sepp take it up even after it had become clear Dumoulin had shed everybody he was going to.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

For saying after stage 6 that there is no point in either riding hard, or trying to gain time, if a stage doesn't end on the steepest climb of the day.

I have then taken this and run with it to exaggerated effect after he actually appeared to live up to this ridiculous suggestion which came back to bite them (losing crucial time in a downhill finish by letting the biggest rival go), after Jumbo appeared to give him the day off on stage 15 because it was his birthday and because Kuss basically spent most of the tour not actually being expended but instead riding shotgun whilst looking comfortable while Dumoulin did so much work on the front and the DS never told him to empty himself and let Sepp take it up even after it had become clear Dumoulin had shed everybody he was going to.

I am not surprised to find that you take philosophical differences on the subject of stage design seriously.

The bit about him sitting there looking comfortable and not actually hitting the front on a number of stages was presumably not his call though. I suspect that in a lot of those situations Roglic didn’t want the pace any higher and preferred to stay at Dumoulin’s speed.

 

[Amatour]

I think Sepp Kuss weakened Roglic by 59 seconds.

The effects of over exertion at the end of an extreme stage, near the end of a three week tour where a rider rides over aggressively consistently, all after having a recent injury, cannot be discounted.

I was under the impression that Sepp rode away by himself, I wasn't aware that the team or Roglic ordered the attack.

There seems to be differences of opinion about who ordered the attack.

If Roglic ordered it, it's just another example of his bad tactical sense that we saw throughout the race where he too often rode over-aggressively when it didn't really count. The one exception to that was the initial time he made up on Podocar in the crosswinds.

If the team management ordered it that's even dumber. Safe to assume a younger rider is going to recover better for the TT and make sure you are saving enough to give 100% in that. Roglic obviously wasn't 100% in the TT but Podocar was. The team management seemed to wear Podocar down with their tactics of trying to control the race like USPS. The simple awareness of knowing that you and your team have worked extremely hard throughout a three week race while others have rested more can only have negative psychological impacts going into the final TT, and likely had a positive psychological effect on Podocar. Psychology is everything in sports, and in the crucial race of truth TT you want to absolutely be 100%. Team management should have done more to rest him going into the final TT, similar to how team sports like NBA basketball reduce the minutes of their star players before the playoffs.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

Stage 17 Kuss meant nothing to Roglic on the ITT.
I do think that J-V too often wasted energy chasing down non-dangerous early stage breaks (much like M-S in the 2018 Giro). It's possible (but not a definite) that riding easier made a difference to Roglic.
Sky-Ineos-Grenadines is much smarter in that aspect.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

OP was riddled with inaccuracies so surprised everyone's taking it so seriously, but Roglic himself asked Kuss to attack, per Roglic.

Also, I agree that their use of Kuss was strange. He often rode behind even Roglic on the climbs. I imagine that was to protect him for the end so he could ride down Pogacar attacks, etc., but probably could have used him more and Dumoulin less.

 

[Gigs_98]

Who could forget Roglic's overaggressive moves like

• Watching the sky train very aggressively while they set a snail pace on the Lusette
• Following one out of two attacks by Pog on the Peyresourde
• Sprinting for no less than 5 bonus seconds on the Marie Blanque
• Taking the lead from Pog with 300 metres to go on the Puy Marie
• Letting his team dictate the pace on the Grand Colombier not for the whole climb, but the whole climb minus 500 metres
• Aggressively waiting for his teammates on the gravel section of stage 18

Not impressed yet? I can keep going for the whole day

 

[Amatour]

And ...

1. The OP mentioned the fastest tour of the post doping era. When did that era start?
2. Is this thread serious or a joke?

1. Unless you have evidence of a specific tactic or drug they might be using or taking you shouldn't be making accusations. At least the people accusing Lance knew he was on epo and there was some evidence, they didn't just make up conspiracies out of thin air to discount the performance of a young champion like Podocar. Entertain me with your tin foil conspiracies about team UAE, I haven't heard anything.

 

[Red Rick]

I know it sounds counterintuitive but apparently it makes more sense in Dutch.

We are known for getting 2nd in the biggest event in sports, yes.

 

[topcat]

1. Unless you have evidence of a specific tactic or drug they might be using or taking you shouldn't be making accusations. At least the people accusing Lance knew he was on epo and there was some evidence, they didn't just make up conspiracies out of thin air to discount the performance of a young champion like Podocar. Entertain me with your tin foil conspiracies about team UAE, I haven't heard anything.

Haha. You asserted we're in the post doping era. I asked when it started. I made no accusations. There's a different thread for your assertions. But maybe, you're just joking.

 

[Amatour]

Also, I agree that their use of Kuss was strange. He often rode behind even Roglic on the climbs. I imagine that was to protect him for the end so he could ride down Pogacar attacks, etc., but probably could have used him more and Dumoulin less.

Agreed, that was strange and made no sense. I thought they might have done it to have a rider behind to be able to warn off any attack coming up but that wouldn't make too much difference.

 

[Krokro]

1. Unless you have evidence of a specific tactic or drug they might be using or taking you shouldn't be making accusations. At least the people accusing Lance knew he was on epo and there was some evidence, they didn't just make up conspiracies out of thin air to discount the performance of a young champion like Podocar. Entertain me with your tin foil conspiracies about team UAE, I haven't heard anything.

No need for that, you just need eyes and a brain to understand somethings going on, sorry, but not the good part of the forum for that talk.

 

[BlueRoads]

Stage 17 Kuss meant nothing to Roglic on the ITT.
I do think that J-V too often wasted energy chasing down non-dangerous early stage breaks (much like M-S in the 2018 Giro). It's possible (but not a definite) that riding easier made a difference to Roglic.
Sky-Ineos-Grenadines is much smarter in that aspect.

In part I agree. I think that was because Roglic is best at these short mtf efforts and they wanted to take the time bonuses whenever they could, though. Unfortunately someone like Pogacar is very good at that, and sometimes better, too.

 

[Amatour]

Haha. You asserted we're in the post doping era. I asked when it started. I made no accusations. There's a different thread for your assertions. But maybe, you're just joking.

I took your whole post as a sarcastic swipe of the peleton, sorry if it wasn't. In my opinion the post doping era started in the post-Froome era. Bernal and Podocar aren't taking the asthma drugs as far as I'm aware. If Froome comes back or we get another asthmatic winner then we will be back in it.

 

[BlueRoads]

It looks like maybe not Jumbos conclusions and solutions were a bit off, but the step before, their reading of the strengths of riders, their own and the rivals. It is not easy to blame them, for instance hardly anybody else forsaw Pogacar's tt, but in their accessment of Roglic, Kuss and Dumoulin they maybe were not so great, either. It's hard to order the right steps if you base them on shaky conditions.

 

[BlueRoads]

I took your whole post as a sarcastic swipe of the peleton, sorry if it wasn't. In my opinion the post doping era started in the post-Froome era. Bernal and Podocar aren't taking the asthma drugs as far as I'm aware. If Froome comes back or we get another asthmatic winner then we will be back in it.

Best to continue this in the clinic thread. In case you're looking for it, it's in the café.

About your initial post, they could have used Kuss better in my opinion, by using him with Dumoulin and van Aert instead of such a more isolated move, but in the end this move definitely was not very costly for Roglic.
I actually found the question a bit funny.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I am not surprised to find that you take philosophical differences on the subject of stage design seriously.

The bit about him sitting there looking comfortable and not actually hitting the front on a number of stages was presumably not his call though. I suspect that in a lot of those situations Roglic didn’t want the pace any higher and preferred to stay at Dumoulin’s speed.

Oh, I agree it wasn't his call, but the fact that they used him that way for two weeks after he said what he said in that interview turned him from being a short term object of my ire into being a mascot for the passivity of the race.

 

[Leinster]

They should’ve done it more, and sooner. The Villard de Lans stage in particular was a stage perfectly designed to launch someone up the road and create and opportunity for Roglic to bridge across and put a chasing burden on Pogacar (and Porte, Lopez, and other GC contenders who may still have been alive at the time)

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like they really misused Dumoulin and Kuss. They used Kuss exclusively for defense. They could have sent him or Dumoulin or Wout in breaks and had Roglic bridge across, etc., but just didn't try.

 

[JosephK]

My understanding was that Roglic at a key moment asked Kuss to go up the climb solo, with the idea that Pogi might try to follow to get the bonus seconds, and Roglic could then follow Pogi and go around/ahead of him at the finish. But Superman blew up the idea, was too strong (while Pogacar did not immediately respond), and Kuss sat up a bit for Roglic, who had then attacked Pogi, with Kuss supporting Roglic for a couple hundred meters--enough to get a gap on Pogacar. In the end, having Kuss up the road probably actually helped add to Roglic's lead, since Kuss did shepherd Roglic enough to help get a gap on Pogacar. After that stage, who knew Pogi would blow everyone up on the ITT.

 

[Amatour]

In the end, having Kuss up the road probably actually helped add to Roglic's lead, since Kuss did shepherd Roglic enough to help get a gap on Pogacar. After that stage, who knew Pogi would blow everyone up on the ITT.

An expert in sports psychology would likely predict Roglic's subpar effort if they were familiar with cycling and following the race closely. An athlete only has so much flame before it wanes and when it does it happens progressively and has drastic effects on recovery. Meanwhile Podocar on the other hand had all the psychological advantages which set him in a good position going into the final TT.

One thing that hasn't been talked about is how the fact that they are both Slovakian probably helped Podocar also. I think Podocar was essentially able to view himself as part of the Jumbo Visma squad and attatched himself to them as if they were, regardless of whether they were attacking him, he was just staying with his fellow countryman. Just sat on him mostly except for the sprint finishes and the final TT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

An expert in sports psychology would likely predict Roglic's subpar effort if they were familiar with cycling and following the race closely. An athlete only has so much flame before it wanes and when it does it happens progressively and has drastic effects on recovery. Meanwhile Podocar on the other hand had all the psychological advantages which set him in a good position going into the final TT.

One thing that hasn't been talked about is how the fact that they are both Slovakian probably helped Podocar also. I think Podocar was essentially able to view himself as part of the Jumbo Visma squad and attatched himself to them as if they were, regardless of whether they were attacking him, he was just staying with his fellow countryman. Just sat on him mostly except for the sprint finishes and the final TT.

They are Slovenians, not Slovakians.
His name is Pogacar, not Podocar.
Two days earlier, it seemed that if either one's flame was waning, it would have been Pogacar's. With a mental win for Roglic, extending his lead by 17 seconds.

 

[Amatour]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like they really misused Dumoulin and Kuss. They used Kuss exclusively for defense. They could have sent him or Dumoulin or Wout in breaks and had Roglic bridge across, etc., but just didn't try.

Agreed, their team was so strong that they could have tried all l kinds of different options to create bigger gaps, but they were set on the Postal strategy of simply controlling the race with a big team and gaining time on the final climbs or TT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like they really misused Dumoulin and Kuss. They used Kuss exclusively for defense. They could have sent him or Dumoulin or Wout in breaks and had Roglic bridge across, etc., but just didn't try.

This is exactly why they needed Dumoulin closer in GC. Had he been 5th in GC only +/-2 minutes behind Pogacar, he could have gone from a bit further and it would have been up to Pog to do the chasing (considering his weak team).

 

[Amatour]

With a mental win for Roglic, extending his lead by 17 seconds.

Mental win or psychological exhaustion? You can only try to dominate so much, and using the same tactics teams used in the doping era isn't going to work anymore. Especially when you are racing against a 21 year old who simply has to sit on your wheels.

Unless you have a truly dominant climber the days of controlling the race like Jumbo Visma tried to are over.

 

[jmdirt]

Blame the team if you like your reasoning, but SK was just following orders (likely partly from Rog).