Tour de France Tour de France 2022: Stage 8 (Dole – Lausanne, 186.3k)

[RobertCrawley]

A gift he would have received regardless. But we'll know in 2 weeks. If Vingegaard loses the Tour by 4 seconds or less, this argument will end up having merrit. Let's say the opposite is true, and Vingegaard loses the Tour by 5 minutes, how ridiculous wouldn't it have been to go for a stage win today?

Maybe a better argument about questionable GC tactics is Tad going working too hard in the first week trying to win so many stages. It's possible he's so strong it doesn't matter, but he may have burnt too many matches in the first week getting those 34 seconds when he could have relaxed in the back getting hugs from his teammates.

I'm not ready to say that Vinegar will best Tad in the big hills, but he's a little guy with great legs and form. You know Tad is thinking about him.

 

[BR2]

I also wish the break would have been a lot bigger and that Jumbo didn't chase, but that's because I would have liked a stage I could watch for more than 10 minutes in the beginning and 10 minutes in the end.

Besides, if Pogacar wins the Tour by 4 seconds I am treating everyone who told me so to a beer afterwards.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I also wish the break would have been a lot bigger and that Jumbo didn't chase, but that's because I would have liked a stage I could watch for more than 10 minutes in the beginning and 10 minutes in the end.

Besides, if Pogacar wins the Tour by 4 seconds I am treating everyone who told me so to a beer afterwards.

Just give me the address of your local Basque pub, and i'll be there with Bells (the helmets) on!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Great video from the bike cams today. You can see how close they ride next to the crowds, and see Pinot run right into the back of the bike.

Videos Gallery stage Stage 8 - Saint-Méen-le-Grand > Laval Espace Mayenne - Tour de France 2025

Tour de France - Official website

www.letour.fr

 

[red_flanders]

Right, I get your points, some things to consider though:

UAE lost a man through Covid last night, so they were a man down. I think that's worth considering with regards to theorizing Pogacar would get his team to work for the stage (after he already won 2 in a row).

Pogacar also isn't crazy (I assume), he knows WvA will win that sort of finish. So for UAE, I'd expect them to think "if Jumbo wants the stage, let them do the work, if not, the breakaway gets it" (or Bike Exchange pulls for Matthews).

It was a 4 second gift for Pog at the end.

He does know that, however, as you point out, he grabbed 4 seconds and I'd add, for very little effort. We disagree completely that it was a gift. Pogi and UAE are in yellow. They're going to control the race, everyone expects and knows that. They're going to keep him clean if nothing else.

 

[Rackham]

A gift he would have received regardless. But we'll know in 2 weeks. If Vingegaard loses the Tour by 4 seconds or less, this argument will end up having merrit. Let's say the opposite is true, and Vingegaard loses the Tour by 5 minutes, how ridiculous wouldn't it have been to NOT go for a stage win today?

Okay, what about Van Hooydonck's legs? It's not just about the lost seconds, or even the principle of the matter (which is bad enough, i.e. Roglic for example going from 2:45 down to 2:49 down with zero control over anything), it's also about managing team legs & strength over 3 weeks.

Everyone knows GT teams pick & choose stages whilst filtering priorities, namely disregarding lots of transition stages which aren't a factor in GC battles. All to preserve energy. And people talk about 4 seconds being nothing, but doesn't WvA already have enough green points at this stage of the race? He's literally the only one going for it. So it's not like there was a desperate need for WvA to win on his preferred stage profile for more green points either.

Everyone & their dog knew Pogacar would scoop up bonus seconds & Vingegaard in particular would lose against a Pog sprint on that sort of finish. Jumbo & WvA just didn't care so they put Van Hooydonck on the front & worked all afternoon for the stage.

If that's their goal & priority, fine. I just won't believe they give equal consideration to the yellow jersey fight.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Okay, what about Van Hooydonck's legs? It's not just about the lost seconds, or even the principle of the matter (which is bad enough, i.e. Roglic for example going from 2:45 down to 2:49 down with zero control over anything), it's also about managing team legs & strength over 3 weeks.

Everyone knows GT teams pick & choose stages whilst filtering priorities, namely disregarding lots of transition stages which aren't a factor in GC battles. All to preserve energy. And people talk about 4 seconds being nothing, but doesn't WvA already have enough green points at this stage of the race? He's literally the only one going for it. So it's not like there was a desperate need for WvA to win on his preferred stage profile for more green points either.

Everyone & their dog knew Pogacar would scoop up bonus seconds & Vingegaard in particular would lose against a Pog sprint on that sort of finish. Jumbo & WvA just didn't care so they put Van Hooydonck on the front & worked all afternoon for the stage.

If that's their goal & priority, fine. I just won't believe they give equal consideration to the yellow jersey fight.

Like i said, that is basically the only valid point. But it wasn't like Van Hooydonck was reeling a 30 guy /10 minute break in. I think Van Aert's effort 3 days ago was a lot more wastefull in that regard. And it wasn't exactly in his favor either.

 

[Eeslliw]

I know and it's very sad . Fausto is a good guy. But I never claimed he is the best rider of the world. Just a very good one

I am still salty that Fausto let Pogacar win Il Lombardia, just shows what a legened he is. Only because he felt he didn't deserve the win when his team ordered him to not take turns with Tadej. In my book, that is worth more than winning 5 monuments.

 

[yaco]

Too much fuss about today's stage - The fact is that the early crash allowed a false break - Pogacar crashed so you wait for the yellow jersey - BEX wanted to put Matthews in the break but he was involved in the crash, so they were forced to ride from the peleton - Anyway the stats showed that BEX were on the front more than Jumbo - The break was always going to be caught because BEX wanted to win the stage.

 

[RedheadDane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1545841485848973312

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1545841485848973312

Wow, their team bus looks FANTASTIC! I love this blue/white, combined with the full black tyres/wheels. Looks so good!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Too much fuss about today's stage - The fact is that the early crash allowed a false break - Pogacar crashed so you wait for the yellow jersey - BEX wanted to put Matthews in the break but he was involved in the crash, so they were forced to ride from the peleton - Anyway the stats showed that BEX were on the front more than Jumbo - The break was always going to be caught because BEX wanted to win the stage.

Too many facts in this post.

 

[BR2]

Just give me the address of your local Basque pub, and i'll be there with Bells (the helmets) on!

I don't know the exact address, but we can meet at the old theatre in Bilbao.

 

[Andre]

Great ride by Wout. Once again the strongest. He was blocked twice during the final dash or else he may have gotten a few more seconds. Jumbo Visma is doing a good job so far.

 

[RedheadDane]

Great video from the bike cams today. You can see how close they ride next to the crowds, and see Pinot run right into the back of the bike.

Videos Gallery stage Stage 8 - Saint-Méen-le-Grand > Laval Espace Mayenne - Tour de France 2025

Tour de France - Official website

www.letour.fr

And... get an electric shock from Duchesne?

 

[Wyndbrook]

Hmm, no combativy prize for Wright today.

 

[RedheadDane]

Hmm, no combativy prize for Wright today.

Or for Kämna yesterday... guess that's one of the issues with deciding the combativity prize so far out.

 

[JosefK]

Sure, and Cavendish was the best rider of 2009.

If you'd put Van Aert over a rider who's won 3 Grand Tours, a monument, and Olympic gold, a 2nd place in the Tour de France in addition to more GT stage wins and more wins overall in the same period then I'm not questioning if I am biased, and I'm also not really thinking I'm blinded by hatred.

I do think this is a fair and good point, but at the same time Jumbo's options for GC changed when Roglic crashed in stage 5 (a stage where Wout probably saved Jumbo's GC chances). Supporting the pre-race goals for Wout still looks like a good thing, maybe.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If you think monuments are the be-all-end-all, then of course not. I dont. Wout is a complete specimen, a peak Sagan on steroids. He should have won some of the cobbled monuments, but haven't yet (remember Covid, crashes etc. all play a part). He was as strong in the spring as he is now and was the red hot favourite going in, but caught Covid. I think you know all of it, dont you?

Wout has proved, without contest, more than VDP has, even though Mathieu has 2 Flanders. Wout is more well rounded and has a Mathieu-esque peak shape as well through ALL terrain. I cannot understand how people can sit there with a straight face, watching all these races as we do, and come to the conclusion he's not even in the top-2.

Also, please, please, please do not compare Cavendish with Wout... they're not even in the same breath man. Like.... man.

A peak MVP is better than a peak WVA. In cobbles, at least.

 

[yaco]

Or for Kämna yesterday... guess that's one of the issues with deciding the combativity prize so far out.

Cattaneo did more work in the break - Check the stats!

 

[StryderHells]

Wow, their team bus looks FANTASTIC! I love this blue/white, combined with the full black tyres/wheels. Looks so good!

Looks great but doesn’t work to well.

 

[Jns]

By what logic do Jumbo themselves beleive they were never gonna beat Pogacar if they brougth both Roglic and Vingegaard and basically their 4 best climbers to the Tour if they were never gonna beat Pogacar anyway, all the while talking about winning the Tour de France as a team for the past ~3 years.

Also how does yesterday compute to "yes definitely no chance of winning" when only 35 seconds back on GC and near dead even on a climb that suits Pogacar better than Vingegaard.

JV simply weighed all options, looked at the probabilities and expected results, and they decided not to put everything on yellow alone. If you look at it objectively, it is a very understandable and correct decision.

Yes, to optimise their chances of winning the TDF, they’d have to focus on yellow only and let the team only work for Vingegaard and Roglic, ignoring stage wins and the green jersey.

However, even if they focus on yellow, their experience (and data) learns that the odds are still stacked against them and Pogacar is the favourite to win. Only focusing on yellow - which implies less stage wins and more conservative riding - and ending up with 2nd and/or 3rd place has limited value for the team and sponsors. Moreover, WVA would evidently not stay with the team on the long term if he’d be a domestique every year. Him leaving would also be a big loss for the team.

JV also knew that WVA is very likely to win multiple stages and green with some support. Getting these impressive stage wins and the green jersey with WVA has a lot of promotional value for the team and sponsors.

So JV made a correct and logic trade-off. They took an approach that (very slightly) lowers the probability to win yellow, in return for several stage wins, green, guaranteed and significant promotional value,… By doing so, they maximised their 'expected return'.

 

[Rackham]

So JV made a correct and logic trade-off. They took an approach that (very slightly) lowers the probability to win yellow, in return for several stage wins, green, guaranteed and significant promotional value,… By doing so, they maximised their 'expected return'.

If Wout van Aert needs a train to deliver him stages, then he's not an acceptable trade-off when a team is fighting for GC. Cancellara used to boss his own speciality & not hinder Schleck, so WvA should put his big-boy pants on & take care of his own business in these annex classifications.

You don't see UAE hiring Mark Cavendish & saying "let's go green, stage hunting & yellow!" just to look cool on Netflix.

 

[BR2]

If Wout van Aert needs a train to deliver him stages, then he's not an acceptable trade-off when a team is fighting for GC. Cancellara used to boss his own speciality & not hinder Schleck, so WvA should put his big-boy pants on & take care of his own business in these annex classifications.

You don't see UAE hiring Mark Cavendish & saying "let's go green, stage hunting & yellow!" just to look cool on Netflix.

Rackham, I never get how an intelligent person like you can be so extremely biased. For you Roglic is the center of the world and you look through the lense of this on everything. In part I can understand you, it must suck immensely, Roglic is such a strong rider and yet he can't show that in the Tour. But you are losing all perspective. For example Roglic himself crashed on the cobbles. He simply crashes quite a lot. It wasn't Wout's mistake or the Jumbos'. Yes, I was also astonished how they left him behind on the cobbles, but in the end he simply hasn't shown that he can win a Tour and I guess Vingegaard's numbers in training are equally good.
In the end it is tough to support a rider who crashes that much unconditionally, if you have other options, too. Time will tell more about how smart Jumbo's decisions were.
But at least a lot of it is understandable, don't look born out of ill will, but simply the result of assessment of chances - and Roglic's own crashes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@BR2

And you are not extremely biased when it comes to Rogla? For example what you just wrote. You blame Rogla for being responsible for a hit and run accident. Like to claim it was his fault.