Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 6: Tarbes - Cauterets-Cambasque, 144.9k

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Shame.

Great name!

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Imagine thinking you know someone based on their behavior on a bike or in carefully crafted press statements.

My personality when playing competitive sport was completely different to my behavior in the real world.

Imagine pretending you don't form opinions about public figures.

So you are faking it in one of those arenas. I bet I know which one. Your dishonesty probably permeates all areas of your life.

 

[BigCoward]

Imagine pretending you don't form opinions about public figures.

Your dishonesty probably permeates all areas of your life.

I couldn't give a *** about public figures. I certainly dont need to get involved in their imaginary petty squabbles.
But by all means try and put me down to make yourself feel better about your failings.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I couldn't give a *** about public figures. I certtainly dont need to get involved in their imaginaty petty squabbles.
But by all means try and put me down to make yourself feel better about your failings.

...which is why you'er posting on a forum about professional bike racing, and professionial cyclists...because you don't give a s**t...man, introspection is not your forte.

You come in swinging and then yelp like a little puppy when someone swings back. New to the intertubes, I see.

 

[Volderke]

Some thoughts:
Best stage over the tourmalet has to be 1910, from memory

The moment Vingegaard noticed he wasn’t dropping pog, I really wondered why he was still pulling. He wouldn’t pull pog to the line (stage and bonus seconds), would he? So why pulling after the attack didn’t work? If there was one obvious and easy to correct mistake, it was this one.

Last, as this topic has evolved into a Wva / mvdp / pog relationship status soap, I can only say this: pog is (very) good friends with Philipsen (and their respective partners). Same goes for pog / mvdp. Wva is a step further (family man), so no traveling together (/sharing partners? ;-) )
Mvdp and Wva have a too long professional relationship to ignore each other, and while mvdp is an absolute bully in the race with regards to finishing off his competitors (thus in a good way) , I never heard disrespect from him about his competitors and I honestly don’t see it in his character.
Pog is a bit snarky lately but that has more to do with his own rivalry with JV and the Tour de France at stake; be sure pog is mightily impressed with Wva and would rather have him in his team than against him.

Whatever was discussed in E3: you aren’t obliged to talk with anyone in a race, and if mvdp and pog talked, or even trash talked wva, it will probably because they know he’s a though rival.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Some thoughts:
Best stage over the tourmalet has to be 1910, from memory

The moment Vingegaard noticed he wasn’t dropping pog, I really wondered why he was still pulling. He wouldn’t pull pog to the line (stage and bonus seconds), would he? So why pulling after the attack didn’t work? If there was one obvious and easy to correct mistake, it was this one.

Last, as this topic has evolved into a Wva / mvdp / pog relationship status soap, I can only say this: pog is (very) good friends with Philipsen (and their respective partners). Same goes for pog / mvdp. Wva is a step further (family man), so no traveling together (/sharing partners? ;-) )
Mvdp and Wva have a too long professional relationship to ignore each other, and while mvdp is an absolute bully in the race with regards to finishing off his competitors (thus in a good way) , I never heard disrespect from him about his competitors and I honestly don’t see it in his character.
Pog is a bit snarky lately but that has more to do with his own rivalry with JV and the Tour de France at stake; be sure pog is mightily impressed with Wva and would rather have him in his team than against him.

Whatever was discussed in E3: you aren’t obliged to talk with anyone in a race, and if mvdp and pog talked, or even trash talked wva, it will probably because they know he’s a though rival.

A fair assessment. I used my assessment to make the point that I do not cheer for either Pog or MvDP. My reasoning is the way they conduct themselves. Evidently, forming an opinon based on individual criteria is a major heresy, unless you're discussing how arrogant and selfish Wout is, in relation to why you don't cheer for Wout. Then it's just something other than a judgment of a public figure in cycling. It's evidently gospel, and appears to garner far less criticism of the opinion.

 

[Eclipse]

Just got caught up and what a pleasant surprise!

Feels like JV (the individual and the team) got a bit overconfident and thought Pog was at best going to be hanging on and were completely unprepared for him being able to actively take the attack to them in the end.

Thank god we've still got a race on!

 

[Peter von]

Just got caught up and what a pleasant surprise!

Feels like JV (the individual and the team) got a bit overconfident and thought Pog was at best going to be hanging on and were completely unprepared for him being able to actively take the attack to them in the end.

Thank god we've still got a race on!

yeah, one of those where Jumbo kinda look like fools now for gambling with their big lead like that after a day where Jonas really had to work hard for his seconds. But in the flip side there was a risk that Pogi would be peaking more in third week and so Vingegaard needed the buffer.

But yeah, great racing, hopefully they will take turns being the strongest for the rest of the race

 

[BigCoward]

...which is why you'er posting on a forum about professional bike racing, and professionial cyclists...because you don't give a s**t...man, introspection is not your forte.

You come in swinging and then yelp like a little puppy when someone swings back. New to the intertubes, I see.

Are you like, a crazy person?

i'm discussig cyclists because i like cycling, not because they are famous. And where I come from they aren't. I doubt a know a single person who could identify the current leader of the TdF.

Not content with involving yourself with cyclists drama, you are now creating it with multiple other people in this thread.
Leave me alone and out of your petty drama you weirdo.

 

[Rackham]

I'm just watching The Move, i.e. according to Bruyneel, Niermann was heard on the radio telling Vingegaard that Pog was on the limit on the descent. It explains why he tried to gap Pog downhill (& could have crashed himself out at one point).

I don't think that's smart, at all. In fact it's a pretty surreal way of cycling. Jumbo was so desperate to win the jackpot yesterday & threw all caution out the window.

 

[rokovski]

On short press conf. Pog said that he wanted attack 4km to go, but he was advised from car, that should wait a little more.

 

[Salvarani]

I'm just watching The Move, i.e. according to Bruyneel, Niermann was heard on the radio telling Vingegaard that Pog was on the limit on the descent. It explains why he tried to gap Pog downhill (& could have crashed himself out at one point).

I don't think that's smart, at all. In fact it's a pretty surreal way of cycling. Jumbo was so desperate to win the jackpot yesterday & threw all caution out the window.

That clip was played, when they were on the descent in the broadcast. I watch without commercials.

BUT

Do we know if that is played live though? I feel like it is played in the broadcast a few minutes after the fact. Commentators in my country speculated on the same thing and said that the clip from the car was probably from a couple of minutes earlier, when they would still have been on the way up to the top of Tourmalet.

In the clip he said "Pog is on the limit" but he didnt specify or say "try to gap him on the descent". The clip was just played, when they were on the descent. I could be wrong but I think Vinge was either just a bit stressed or wanted to catch up with Van Aert as soon as possible. Who he probably had been told was waiting.

 

[Prim]

I'm just watching The Move, i.e. according to Bruyneel, Niermann was heard on the radio telling Vingegaard that Pog was on the limit on the descent. It explains why he tried to gap Pog downhill (& could have crashed himself out at one point).

I don't think that's smart, at all. In fact it's a pretty surreal way of cycling. Jumbo was so desperate to win the jackpot yesterday & threw all caution out the window.

As I understand it the team comms are delayed in the broadcast so Niermann might as well have said this on the Tourmalet.

 

[Rackham]

As I understand it the team comms are delayed in the broadcast so Niermann might as well have said this on the Tourmalet.

I'm just repeating what Bruyneel said. I didn't hear the radio transmission myself (& just re-watching the French Eurosport coverage, they say Niermann was talking to Kuss, actually).

Vingegaard did clearly try to gap Pogačar on the descent of the Tourmalet though.

 

[Roku]

The stage was a reverse Granon. JV (Take it as Jumbo-Visma or as Jonas Vingegaard) were over-confident.

"Pacing" Pogacar over the last three kms of Tourmalet made sense in order to try to crack him and use Van Aert on the run in to Cauterets.

Once they got over Tourmalet and it was clear they were not going to drop him, pacing him up Cauterets made 0 sense.

I don't even understand what they were trying to achieve there, given it was clear Pogacar was not going to be dropped.

 

[Rackham]

The stage was a reverse Granon. JV (Take it as Jumbo-Visma or as Jonas Vingegaard) were over-confident.

"Pacing" Pogacar over the last three kms of Tourmalet made sense in order to try to crack him and use Van Aert on the run in to Cauterets.

Once they got over Tourmalet and it was clear they were not going to drop him, pacing him up Cauterets made 0 sense.

I don't even understand what they were trying to achieve there, given it was clear Pogacar was not going to be dropped.

It's my opinion Grischa Niermann was telling Vingegaard he was going to drop Pog.

I think that's the basic truth of what happened, i.e. it was a race dictated by the team car & no one else. Vingegaard just did what he was told to do.

After Ventoux 2021, Granon, Hautacam & Marie Blanque, I reckon Jumbo's DS's really did believe their own hype.

 

[Salvarani]

The stage was a reverse Granon. JV (Take it as Jumbo-Visma or as Jonas Vingegaard) were over-confident.

"Pacing" Pogacar over the last three kms of Tourmalet made sense in order to try to crack him and use Van Aert on the run in to Cauterets.

Once they got over Tourmalet and it was clear they were not going to drop him, pacing him up Cauterets made 0 sense.

I don't even understand what they were trying to achieve there, given it was clear Pogacar was not going to be dropped.

They had set something in motion, that they couldnt back down from. They had to commit. Maybe hoped that Vinge would be able to drop him in the last climb, but Pog had enough time to recover in the valley and they werent going fast enough in the last climb.

Where they messed up was not bringing Kuss with them over Tourmalet, I think. Jonas would have needed one more guy to pace after Van Aert in the last climb. Van Aert was massive yesterday, but in the last climb he was out of gas. Most of the other riders followed along for some time until Vinge attacked. Kwiat was even able to come back again. Thats where they would have needed Kuss to set a pace. Maybe Pog wins stage but they dont suffer any time loss. Would have been the best outcome after not being able to drop him in Tourmalet. They would still taken the jersey and had a bigger lead.

Jumbo has already used a lot of their guys in these early mountain stages. I wonder how Kelderman, Kuss (who is usually a 3rd week merchant) and Van Aert (baby any day) will hold up towards the end.

 

[SafeBet]

I'm just repeating what Bruyneel said. I didn't hear the radio transmission myself (& just re-watching the French Eurosport coverage, they say Niermann was talking to Kuss, actually).

Vingegaard did clearly try to gap Pogačar on the descent of the Tourmalet though.

I think it was recorded during the ascent of the Tourmalet, after Vingegaard's first attack (when Pogacar looked on the limit to me as well).
Considering what had happened the day before I don't blame Jumbo for believing Pog would crack sooner or later if Vingegqaard kept pushing until the top. To me Jumbo did everything right.

 

[tobydawq]

I guess the Aspin-Tourmalet combination worked a little bit better in 2023 than in 2009.

 

[bNator]

The problem with backing off once you've committed to such a daring attack is you signal your opponents that you're not as strong as you were hoping. If Jonas just backed off after Wout was done, it would be a clear indicator to Pog that he is weak. And as Pog said he wanted to go at 4 km but didn't due to the instruction from his team. Well - if Jonas sat back after Wout was done, Pog would have gone at 5 km to go and made amuch bigger difference...

 

[JohnWayne]

I think it was recorded during the ascent of the Tourmalet, after Vingegaard's first attack (when Pogacar looked on the limit to me as well).
Considering what had happened the day before I don't blame Jumbo for believing Pog would crack sooner or later if Vingegqaard kept pushing until the top. To me Jumbo did everything right.

It was definitely recorded during the ascent. Finnish Eurosport said it was when Kelderman or Kuss were pulling (I remember them saying Kelderman, but I'm questioning myself...).

 

[Elos Anjos]

That clip was played, when they were on the descent in the broadcast. I watch without commercials.

BUT

Do we know if that is played live though? I feel like it is played in the broadcast a few minutes after the fact. Commentators in my country speculated on the same thing and said that the clip from the car was probably from a couple of minutes earlier, when they would still have been on the way up to the top of Tourmalet.

In the clip he said "Pog is on the limit" but he didnt specify or say "try to gap him on the descent". The clip was just played, when they were on the descent. I could be wrong but I think Vinge was either just a bit stressed or wanted to catch up with Van Aert as soon as possible. Who he probably had been told was waiting.

Now that you think about it and not going to overthinking...Pogi knew he was being filmed and seen live by Jumbo's DS....why not pretending to be tired? In fact, I recall users commenting (I myself) about his wrist and shape while going down Tourmalet.

 

[Divergence]

I'm just watching The Move, i.e. according to Bruyneel, Niermann was heard on the radio telling Vingegaard that Pog was on the limit on the descent. It explains why he tried to gap Pog downhill (& could have crashed himself out at one point).

I don't think that's smart, at all. In fact it's a pretty surreal way of cycling. Jumbo was so desperate to win the jackpot yesterday & threw all caution out the window.

It was broadcasted during the descent but the message was probably transmitted during the final part of Tourmalet.
It is pretty clear at this point that whatever success any JV rider has is despite the tactics from the team. They are not good neither when calmly planing the races nor in the heat of the moment

 

[Divergence]

They had set something in motion, that they couldnt back down from. They had to commit. Maybe hoped that Vinge would be able to drop him in the last climb, but Pog had enough time to recover in the valley and they werent going fast enough in the last climb.

Where they messed up was not bringing Kuss with them over Tourmalet, I think. Jonas would have needed one more guy to pace after Van Aert in the last climb. Van Aert was massive yesterday, but in the last climb he was out of gas. Most of the other riders followed along for some time until Vinge attacked. Kwiat was even able to come back again. Thats where they would have needed Kuss to set a pace. Maybe Pog wins stage but they dont suffer any time loss. Would have been the best outcome after not being able to drop him in Tourmalet. They would still taken the jersey and had a bigger lead.

Jumbo has already used a lot of their guys in these early mountain stages. I wonder how Kelderman, Kuss (who is usually a 3rd week merchant) and Van Aert (baby any day) will hold up towards the end.

The one that needed a recovery in the valley was Vingo.

 

[Salvarani]

Now that you think about it and not going to overthinking...Pogi knew he was being filmed and seen live by Jumbo's DS....why not pretending to be tired? In fact, I recall users commenting (I myself) about his wrist and shape while going down Tourmalet.

Exactly... it is always a bit of mind games going on.

It is like on the last climb Pog looking over his shoulders multiple times, before his big attack. On his limit, he would have just been looking straight forward and eyes glued to the back of Vingegaard.

Quite the opposite body language of the day before. Because then he also looked back but only once, right before he was dropped.