Tour de France Tour de France 2024, Stage 4: Pinerolo > Valloire, 139.6 km

[Peyroteo94]

The GOAT!!! Incredible!!!!

 

[Simurgh]

History has been written! Marvelous.

 

[Boehmand]

Except it wasn't a freewheeling descent by Tadej or the guys that caught up to Jonas. Tadej laid down power well past the KOM to get up to speed and then could recover. Another km of climbing would have only doubled the gap. Good tactical riding on Tadej's part.

I'm not knocking Pogacar, his descending was awesome to watch.

I'm just saying it was a descent which suited him - on the technical parts Vingegaard took back time, which means they are good at different parts of descending, and this one heavily favoured Pogacars particular set of skills.

But I will also say there is no way an in-form Vingegaard had lost that much on the high speed parts, so to me he looks 95 % - the question is if there is a crossover point in the Tour, when Pogacar feels the burn of the Giro and Vingegaard rides himself into shape?

 

[Oldermanish]

I'm not knocking Pogacar, his descending was awesome to watch.

I'm just saying it was a descent which suited him - on the technical parts Vingegaard took back time, which means they are good at different parts of descending, and this one heavily favoured Pogacars particular set of skills.

But I will also say there is no way an in-form Vingegaard had lost that much on the high speed parts, so to me he looks 95 % - the question is if there is a crossover point in the Tour, when Pogacar feels the burn of the Giro and Vingegaard rides himself into shape?

I watched it closely. At no point did Jonas take back more than a second, only to lose it and more on the following corners. On the flatter portion it should favor the stronger solo rider and most Vindegaard fans are certain he can beat anyone.
Jonas' form is not there and it shouldn't be based on his injury and recovery period. It was still a heroic effort but the investment of energy to get to this level of form doesn't necessarily improve without some rest after a prolonged off-the-bike recovery. That's not going to happen this Tour as the jackals are already to go nuts; Jonas lacks the team depth to help him.

 

[Netserk]

Jonas and his weight excuse for losing time on the descent makes me laugh.

If Pog is heavier then surely it's harder for him on the uphill - need more w/kg to stick with Jonas - so what's his excuse there?

A heavier rider needs to push less W/kg to ride the same pace uphill as a lighter rider.

 

[Bolder]

Maybe we have a solution to the French GC drought - hold the entire race in Italy

(Italians, in "Holy Grail" voice, "We've already got one.")

 

[DarkBlue]

A heavier rider needs to push less W/kg to ride the same pace uphill as a lighter rider.

Same w/kg but more Watts

 

[Netserk]

Same w/kg but more Watts

Nope. Bike weight and wind resistance do not scale linearly with the rider's weight. Here you have an example of how the power calculation for 65 kg is ~0.13 W/kg less than for 57 kg:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1526290348040912897

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1526290348040912897

 

[CyclistAbi]

It would have been a bonus to fans if Bernal and Mateo had hung on, too. Having Ineos with several threats would have made it better for the other contenders. Stage 4 and every team pretty much know who their show ponies are for the time being.

Would indeed be nice to see Bernal back on such level i can agree with that. As for Jorgenson i feel that the plan A is for him to set Jonas for launch in some stage to come. On there he likely is capable of doing some real damage. We'll see.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Something I noticed yesterday when I was watching the final kilometers again and before Almeida's hand gesture, it was Pogacar saying something on the radio. So it could have been him saying more pace, where is Ayuso, or else.

Yep, the pace was not high enough at that point, for Pogi.

 

[CyclistAbi]

On the subject of Ayuso, I find the 'moralistic' condemnations of his behavior (which I'm reading & hearing just about everywhere this morning) so completely... detached from reality, it blows my mind.

Stuff that happens on the road is the result of team tactics & when it's not, it's in most cases the result of what's actually in the rider's contract. It was said a few years ago Ayuso had a clause in his contract which stated he didn't have to work for Pogačar. If he was also contracted to be able to ride the Tour this year, then everything we've seen is easily explainable.

Yates meanwhile was signed as a super domestique. Everyone knows this. So I find the reactions whereby Yates is a top bloke & Ayuso a villain a bit too much. These guys are doing what they're contracted to do. Sepp Kuss for example didn't ride around 'benevolently' helping Rog & Vinge win GT's, i.e. it was his job description. If he didn't do it, they would have gotten someone else to.

For history to not judge Ayuso, if he decides to attack Pogi on this race, then he must win the race. All other scenarios likely wouldn't do. If he decides against it, on this race, then the question is on when. As at some point he will need to do just that. If he ever wants to win the Tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What are you on about? No it doesn't. Both Almeida, Ayuso and Landa could have ended Roglic' Tour yesterday. If he drops there, its over. He looked miserable and should be very, very, VERY happy by just being 1.14 down based on his legs. Roglic is scraping by, hoping for a miracle, but he's 34 and his consistently high top level is gone.

The most realistic scenario is Roglic ending somewhere between 4-8th right now.

I can agree with the sentiment Rogla is rather happy ATM on where we differ is i feel he will move in top 3 by the end of stage 7. Fingers crossed!

 

[Elos Anjos]

Does anyone? I'm just tired of all the influencers, podcasters & youtubers jumping into the ring with their hot takes looking for drama which generates clicks & traffic, i.e. which in this instance is about portraying Ayuso as some sort of villain because he cares about his own GC placing.

Even 'if' Ayuso had gone rogue, I say good for him. This isn't the United Nations, I'm not looking for anyone to create ever-lasting world peace in the peloton or in these super teams. I had my fill of that last year in the Vuelta when the geniuses on social media decided they didn't want a GC battle in week 3.

So I say let Ayuso race. It'll be fun. If Almeida has a problem with that, I don't care. Hell, if UAE has a problem with that... I don't care either!

Pog is strong enough as it is. It's absurd for some people to pretend he needs Ayuso's devotion anyway. He's a big boy & he can win this Tour with or without 7 riders burying themselves for him.

I usually like your posts. They're well-thought out and insightful. That's why this post is a big disappointment, not because I don't agree (I don't) but because this is not in line with what was expected between riders from the same team. What I'm pointing at here is that I cannot fathom how you write this while holding your line in Vuelta 2023 regarding Vingo's posture.

 

[Rackham]

I usually like your posts. They're well-thought out and insightful. That's why this post is a big disappointment, not because I don't agree (I don't) but because this is not in line with what was expected between riders from the same team. What I'm pointing at here is that I cannot fathom how you write this while holding your line in Vuelta 2023 regarding Vingo's posture.

I'm sorry you're disappointed but It's about context. UAE isn't Jumbo. Rog isn't Pog.

In 2023, Rog was politely pushed towards the Giro & didn't do the Tour. So when he went to the Vuelta & found himself blocked by Kuss (Vingegeaard was perhaps fair enough as co-captain but to lose because his team gave Kuss the lead & then froze positions? No, that was too much).

UAE meanwhile made their bed & now they should sleep in it. They're the ones who brought Ayuso to the Tour de France. They didn't have to. Everyone knows Majka is the most loyal domestique for Pog & guess what? He's at home twiddling his thumbs. From what I've read he was pretty disappointed not to be selected as well. That's on UAE.

The gravel stage yesterday simply confirmed to me there's a hierarchy problem at UAE & no, I don't believe it's Ayuso's fault - or his responsibility to ride for Pog. As things stand Visma's approach to the Tour (all for Vingegaard) is looking like a better approach than UAE's... which seems like going for power > cohesion, especially on a human level.

I think Adam Yates might be the smartest one tbh, i.e. he's totally devoting himself as a dom... but seems to be saving something for later as well, like maybe leadership in the Vuelta.

 

[Netserk]

That CdA range is rather big

Yes. It's to cover the range of possible drafting over the whole ascent.

 

[Netserk]

Do I read correctly that that whole CdA range only makes a difference of 0.01?

No. 0.09 for Quintana.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I'm sorry you're disappointed but It's about context. UAE isn't Jumbo. Rog isn't Pog.

In 2023, Rog was politely pushed towards the Giro & didn't do the Tour. So when he went to the Vuelta & found himself blocked by Kuss (Vingegeaard was perhaps fair enough as co-captain but to lose because his team gave Kuss the lead & then froze positions? No, that was too much).

UAE meanwhile made their bed & now they should sleep in it. They're the ones who brought Ayuso to the Tour de France. They didn't have to. Everyone knows Majka is the most loyal domestique for Pog & guess what? He's at home twiddling his thumbs. From what I've read he was pretty disappointed not to be selected as well. That's on UAE.

The gravel stage yesterday simply confirmed to me there's a hierarchy problem at UAE & no, I don't believe it's Ayuso's fault - or his responsibility to ride for Pog. As things stand Visma's approach to the Tour (all for Vingegaard) is looking like a better approach than UAE's... which seems like going for power > cohesion, especially on a human level.

I think Adam Yates might be the smartest one tbh, i.e. he's totally devoting himself as a dom... but seems to be saving something for later as well, like maybe leadership in the Vuelta.

As far as we know, Almeida and Ayuso were allowed to join the UAE Tour team under the assumption that Pogacar was the designated leader. There is no room for interpretation that such assumption entails working for Pogacar. So what he saw was Ayuso working like he didn't have to do chores on a Sunday: reluctantly.

And in my book this half-witted commitment to what was agreed by gentlemen draws an obvious parallel in their respective characters between Ayuso and Vingegaard when the later attacked unexpectedly in stage 13 Vuelta 2023.

I'm the last to moralistic takes but I hold the line when one is frontal about what he wants and what others want. Almeida kept his word of commitment to Pogacar, Roglic kept his word of commitment to racing, Vingo and Ayuso seemingly didn't and stating that is not moralistic, it is stating that character matters.