Tour de France Tour de France 2025, Stage 16: Montpellier to Mont Ventoux, 171.5 km

[Unchained]

They had some good nutrition stuff back then.

None of the riders of the area think so, and a comment you hear over and over from the @38 years olds to @30..bonking is very very rare almost a thing of the past, major responsibility for team cars is to yell into the radio to eat and drink, eat and drink, eat and drink.. They don't stop..@120+ grams an hour is near impossible to consume!! Riders always looking for something sweet solid,

 

[Danskebjerge]

Pantani rode 20 years ago. If you sat Vingegaard and Pogacar on a bike from 20 years ago, they would be minutes slower. Not to mention all the scientific traning methods that are the norm these days.

I don't buy that. It's not a long and flat TT, it's a slow ascent. When the speed is 15-20 kph, all the factors you mention, especially aero dynamics, are reduced. Surely Pantani's low weight is of bigger importance compared to a guy like Pogacar.

 

[Pippo_San]

Talking about the UAE domestiques. Honestly were they needed today?
In the last climb if Pogi had a crisis there was Soler to give him some rhythm somehow.
In every other circumstances Pogi didn't really need anyone.

 

[staubsauger]

When I see VPP in the interview, I feel the urge to donate to a food charity.

Compared to Michael Rasmussen he's actually well-fed!

 

[D. Pecher]

I don't buy that. It's not a long and flat TT, it's a slow ascent. When the speed is 15-20 kph, all the factors you mention, especially aero dynamics, are reduced. Surely Pantani's low weight is of bigger importance compared to a guy like Pogacar.

weight is always an issue. Imagine going up a mountain in comparison having to do so with two big packs of sugar in your pockets. Even for a Formula One car, losing a kilogram of weight is making a substantial difference. The effect is even bigger if you only have 400 watts of power to start with, especially on the mountain. Why doi you think the best climbers looks like poster boys for the World Hunger Aid?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Talking about the UAE domestiques. Honestly were they needed today?
In the last climb if Pogi had a crisis there was Soler to give him some rhythm somehow.
In every other circumstances Pogi didn't really need anyone.

No, but Soler and Sivakov needed to survive until Chalet Reynard in case he was dropped or had countered Jonas. They couldn't, and especially Sivakov was downright atrocious. When you are this bad, you just go back to the peloton and help Politt instead

 

[D. Pecher]

No, but Soler and Sivakov needed to survive until Chalet Reynard in case he was dropped or had countered Jonas. They couldn't, and especially Sivakov was downright atrocious. When you are this bad, you just go back to the peloton and help Politt instead

As we've seen, Politt doesn't need much help. That guy has the biggest engine since Jens Voigt. UAE gambled and nearly lost, but looking at the result, they did everything right. In the end Pogacar even gained two seconds. Granted, that's more symbolic than anything else, but considering that Vingo and Pog nearly made up 7 minutes on the climb it didn't matter much.

If Politt has the legs, UAE essentially only needs him and Pog to get to Paris in the yellow jersey.

 

[Valv.Piti]

As we've seen, Politt doesn't need much help. That guy has the biggest engine since Jens Voigt. UAE gambled and nearly lost, but looking at the result, they did everything right. In the end Pogacar even gained two seconds. Granted, that's more symbolic than anything else, but considering that Vingo and Pog nearly made up 7 minutes on the climb it didn't matter much.

If Politt has the legs, UAE essentially only needs him and Pog to get to Paris in the yellow jersey.

Lol. When you have Pog and you look at the results, you can always say they did everything right. They obviously didn't today and could have won a stage on Ventoux, but decided it was more important to have satellite riders in front who proved to be of absolute ZERO use.

 

[D. Pecher]

Lol. When you have Pog and you look at the results, you can always say they did everything right. They obviously didn't today and could have won a stage on Ventoux, but decided it was more important to have satellite riders in front who proved to be of absolute ZERO use.

Agreed. Those two upfront were as useless as a square wheel, but in the end it didn't matter. Visma did almost everything right, having guys all along the climb to help Vingegaard. Did it make a difference? He still lost 2 seconds. I think UAE underestimated just how prepared the other teams were to get into a match when they saw Politt chase down all the breaks and they tried to force the issue with the proverbial crowbar. It paid off in the end, but barely.

Mas went into the final climb with 7 minutes on the pack and he was caught. Healey and Co had less than a minute at the end.

 

[proffate]

They went fast today, although Pog was just following so in theory they could've gone even faster still. Crazy.,

Pretty good lead out though. Solid pacing by JVisma, then sprint by JVingo, then a couple anaerobic minutes from Benoot, then another Vingattack, then pacing by Campy, and another bit of drafting Ving. In this case I don't think Pog goes faster if he attacks from the bottom.

 

[Cycling111]

Talking about the UAE domestiques. Honestly were they needed today?
In the last climb if Pogi had a crisis there was Soler to give him some rhythm somehow.
In every other circumstances Pogi didn't really need anyone.

Soler was destroyed when they caught him. He wouldn't have been able to help him if he needed to.

Benoot and Campenaers were much stronger today despite not being climbers.

 

[proffate]

I don't buy that. It's not a long and flat TT, it's a slow ascent. When the speed is 15-20 kph, all the factors you mention, especially aero dynamics, are reduced. Surely Pantani's low weight is of bigger importance compared to a guy like Pogacar.

Pantani and his entire generation was perpetually over geared. And rolling resistance is a little less now. But yeah aero is not a big deal and bike weight hasn't gone down.

 

[yaco]

Pogacar must be asking questions of his teammates here.

A Yates, Sivakov and Soler been next to useless in the mountains & Almeida away home.

Pollitt single handidly riding day after day to try and control

Narvarez and Wellens been good on the classic style stages but they aren't here for the high mountains.

The only time Pog has managed to properly drop Jonas is after Narvarez nuclear minute on Hautacam and then a long solo.

For all the stick they are getting Jumbos domestiques are giving their man more support than Pogis getting.

I would argue that Politt today cost Pogacar the stage victory. All he had to do was let 8 or 10 riders in the break and he would stopped the endless attacking.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Today was not super crazy. They put 1min on Lipowitz and Roglic. Last year there were more alien like performances.

 

[D. Pecher]

Pantani and his entire generation was perpetually over geared. And rolling resistance is a little less now. But yeah aero is not a big deal and bike weight hasn't gone down.

If I recall correctly, bikes in the Pantani era weighed something like 9 kilos. They weigh 6.8 kilos these days, and that only because the rules require them to. That's a massive difference on a 16 kilometer climb.

 

[D. Pecher]

I would argue that Politt today cost Pogacar the stage victory. All he had to do was let 8 or 10 riders in the break and he would stopped the endless attacking.

It's hard to let 10 guys go if thirty are trying. The trouble was that simply too many tried to get away and at some point UAE were po'ed and let nobody go on principle.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Yes it made difference,recovery and attacking again.Instead of killing himself,vinge relativelly fresh after monster efforts.

 

[Red Rick]

To me comparing to 1994 is so the wrong question. We shouldn't ask why guys are going faster than 30 years ago, we should ask ourselves why they're going 5% faster than 10 years ago, when 99% of the things slowing riders down in the 90s weren't around, and riders were near an all time slow.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I would argue that Politt today cost Pogacar the stage victory. All he had to do was let 8 or 10 riders in the break and he would stopped the endless attacking.

Good point. Maybe only the Jayco riders would have tried and bridged, but who knows. Impossible to tell what would have happened.

 

[Rackham]

Compared to Michael Rasmussen he's actually well-fed!

Crusty baked exterior and soft fleshy interior =

 

[D. Pecher]

To me comparing to 1994 is so the wrong question. We shouldn't ask why guys are going faster than 30 years ago, we should ask ourselves why they're going 5% faster than 10 years ago, when 99% of the things slowing riders down in the 90s weren't around, and riders were near an all time slow.

Technical progress over 10 years should make you a few percentage points faster to begin with. If you see just how much money they dump into technical development these days - it's ridiculous. One detail I noticed today was the number of wheel changes. It seemed to be a high number of flats. That was until ther German commentators mentioned that many riders were using TT tires today to save energy on the long runup to the Ventoux.

I don't remember such stuff from even 10 years ago.

 

[search]

It's hard to let 10 guys go if thirty are trying. The trouble was that simply too many tried to get away and at some point UAE were po'ed and let nobody go on principle.

not sure really, it didn't look/sound like many teams were believing in the chances of the breakaway at the start. UAE acting this nervous actually contributed to more and more riders getting interested.

Politt has already showed that he can control a 20 men group on the flat - but obviously not after jumping on 30 wheels before. They just messed it up today.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Happy to see that people making the effort to get into the break got some reward today even if Politt won't be buying them beers anytime soon. If it had just been that early bunch of three dangling 2 mins off the front the stage would have been quite a snooze for most of the day. Visma had a good ride as a team imo but Pogi had the strength to see them off. We even got a Mas attack, fun times.

 

[D. Pecher]

not sure really, it didn't look/sound like many teams were believing in the chances of the breakaway at the start. UAE acting this nervous actually contributed to more and more riders getting interested.

Politt has already showed that he can control a 20 men group on the flat - but obviously not after jumping on 30 wheels before. They just messed it up today.

I think it is a mixture of several things. UAE shut down any attempts quite consequentially, probably because they had plans to win with Pogacar and wanted tight control over who is in the break and how big it is. At some point some of the other teams - Movistar in particular - started getting a little frustrated and started to attack just for the heck of it, just to wear Politt out. In the end UAE had to relent and let that big group go as if to say - 'okay knock yourselves out'. In the case of Movistar all the p'ssing match antics were for nothing. They still got clobbered.

 

[repoman]

If I recall correctly, bikes in the Pantani era weighed something like 9 kilos. They weigh 6.8 kilos these days, and that only because the rules require them to. That's a massive difference on a 16 kilometer climb.

UCI weight limit was introduced in 2000, before this there were bikes under the 6.8kg. Guys like Armstrong and Pantani had special built climbing bikes under the limit that was implemented. Pantani had to be given many bikes per tour because they were all bespoke frames which were specially calculated to use the thinnest alum tube possible for his weight, the downtubes would be trashed after a single stage so they would give him a new bike the next.
There were wheelsets like the low profile ADAs that weighed around 800g for the set (Kevlar spokes back in the 90s!). Armstrong had a bike that was something like 6.6kg, look for the one in pictures that has a single friction shifter on the DT instead of brifters.