Tour de France Tour de France 2025 Stage 19: Albertville-La Plagne (93.1k) ‚Historic day, magnificent racing‘ ~ Rob Hatch, probably

[dr.eve]

It's not even about Boogerd's Clinic issue, it's about him not being that great in the first place.

But you can say that about Arensman as well. I mean so far he is a disappointment as GC rider, most often losing minutes already after a few stages.

Maybe hunting for stages, from the breakaway or from the GC groupe is more suited to him. But I doubt he will get many of these opportunities, if there's a GC leader with INEOS he will have to do his job there.

 

[dr.eve]

Vingegaard yesterday was one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in cycling.

He started his attack when Arensman had already won and when he was unreachable, just because he was afraid of losing to Pogi if he started ten-fiften seconds earlier. That is so *** dammed stupid that I don´t have words for it.

But I don´t know if it was Vingegaards decision or if it was an order from his sports director. If it was the last things, the sports director should be fired...

You can't assume that Lipowitz, Pogacar and Vingegaard knew exactly, real time, the time differences/distances between them and Arensman for the entire 1KM. So I am pretty sure there is a big margin of error between thinking Arensman was reachable Yes or No. You and I on the other hand were looking at live helicopter coverage.

Maybe they should implement that on their bike computer, that way they may become less 'stupid'.

 

[dr.eve]

We're spoiled, and a lot of people are complaining anyway how aside from Van der Poel we're ***.

Complaining even more than me somehow.

We are, enough people nowadays wouldn't rate Gesink or Kelderman great cyclists of our era for the Netherlands compared to how maybe Boogerd was/is seen. Yes oke Kelderman barely wins any stages... But both him and Gesink performed better in GC classifications I think.

We are definitely spoiled and I am not entirely sure what the future holds in this regard after MVDP. But there's some, Del Grosso for example.

 

[Danskebjerge]

what made former champions so memorable

Who?

Armstrong? Froome? Riis? Sastre?

 

[Rackham]

Who?

Armstrong? Froome? Riis? Sastre?

Ah you got me! I'm dying here. I mean silly me right? Pog and Vinge are definitely the epitome of true champion charisma!

My bad.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Ah you got me! I'm dying here. I mean silly me right? Pog and Vinge are definitely the epitome of true champion charisma!

My bad.

It's an honest question. After what era are you pining? I certainly can't think of a champion in the last say 30 years more deserving than Pogacar. When's the last time we saw a TdF champion ride the classics and succeed like he has?

 

[RobertCrawley]

Would never have picked Kaden Groves in a million years.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Would never have picked Kaden Groves in a million years.

Well, no wonder, since he wouldn‘t have stood a chance to win Stage 19.

 

[Rackham]

It's an honest question. After what era are you pining? I certainly can't think of a champion in the last say 30 years more deserving than Pogacar. When's the last time we saw a TdF champion ride the classics and succeed like he has?

It doesn't get more corporate and controlled than Vinge and Pog. They're the Disney Star Wars of the Tour de France. Social media being such a huge factor in the marketing plays a huge role in this.

Former champs made 'human errors'. These guys are robots devoid of realism.

 

[Valv.Piti]

It doesn't get more corporate and controlled than Vinge and Pog. They're the Disney Star Wars of the Tour de France. Social media being such a huge factor in the marketing plays a huge role in this.

Former champs made 'human errors'. These guys are robots devoid of realism.

Just sounds salty to me. Pogacar is far from a robot - quite the opposite. TdF is business, and this year he rode a lot more controlled, but you and I both know that Pog more often than not rides on instinct.

But honest question about former TdF champs. Are only outsiders like Sastre and Evans non-robotic and devoid of realism? How about Pantani? Ullrich?

 

[Rackham]

Just sounds salty to me. Pogacar is far from a robot - quite the opposite. TdF is business, and this year he rode a lot more controlled, but you and I both know that Pog more often than not rides on instinct.

But honest question about former TdF champs. Are only outsiders like Sastre and Evans non-robotic and devoid of realism? How about Pantani? Ullrich?

I can handpick anyone pre-Pog and say they were a combination of several factors, i.e. take your pick between a wide variety of TdF champions who ranged from likeable to detestable. It's all part of the show. But what we got with Pog and Vinge was a severely controlled show in which we're sold a story of superheroes and unlike the first guy to try that 26 years ago, this time there's very little blowback from fans. In fact everyone laps it up.

So am I salty? Maybe. But I consider it more a visceral reaction against what I'm seeing, i.e. I don't like watching these guys 'race', nor do I like hearing their interviews either (or hearing what their teams say). It's just corporate slop.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It doesn't get more corporate and controlled than Vinge and Pog. They're the Disney Star Wars of the Tour de France. Social media being such a huge factor in the marketing plays a huge role in this.

Former champs made 'human errors'. These guys are robots devoid of realism.

You're just complaining to complain. You can't even name the era you want to repeat.
Pogacar doesn't make human errors? Two years ago he was "I'm gone, I'm dead." This year, he famously crashed in Strade Bianche, got up and won. He crashed in Roubaix, and ended up with 2nd.
What about Hautacam was "robotic"? The guy attacked from the base, which nobody really expected (he admitted it wasn't quite planned, either.)
No matter what the guy does, people complain. So he should just ride his race, and let the complainers p!ss in the wind.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I can handpick anyone pre-Pog and say they were a combination of several factors, i.e. take your pick between a wide variety of TdF champions who ranged from likeable to detestable. It's all part of the show. But what we got with Pog and Vinge was a severely controlled show in which we're sold a story of superheroes and unlike the first guy to try that 26 years ago, this time there's very little blowback from fans. In fact everyone laps it up.

So am I salty? Maybe. But I consider it more a visceral reaction against what I'm seeing, i.e. I don't like watching these guys 'race', nor do I like hearing their interviews either (or hearing what their teams say). It's just corporate slop.

You may have an overall point, but making comparisons to the Tours of the past doesn't make the two current leaders stand out negatively in my opinion.

If Evenepoel and Mads Pedersen were 1 and 2, then yes, that may have been more entertaining. But I actually think that Pogacar and Vingegaard are quite honest about things. I also think that Pogacar is way too much in control, but that's because he is way stronger than the other riders. Certainly, Vingegaard has looked very exhausted after many of the stages, so I have no doubt that he has given his all to win the yellow jersey.

 

[D. Pecher]

It doesn't get more corporate and controlled than Vinge and Pog. They're the Disney Star Wars of the Tour de France. Social media being such a huge factor in the marketing plays a huge role in this.

Former champs made 'human errors'. These guys are robots devoid of realism.

That has less to do with them, but how cycling has developed. Every rider has team radio now, and drivers are told to run by wattage, not what they feel like. It's as simple as that: micromanaging riders has yields better results.

What happens when riders act spontaneously could be seen on stage 18, when Lipo decided on his own to attack and blowed himself up in the process. Good entertainment for us, as he was the only one doing at least something, but results-wise it would have been better for the team to micro-manage him.

 

[kingjr]

That has less to do with them, but how cycling has developed. Every rider has team radio now, and drivers are told to run by wattage, not what they feel like. It's as simple as that: micromanaging riders has yields better results.

What happens when riders act spontaneously could be seen on stage 18, when Lipo decided on his own to attack and blowed himself up in the process. Good entertainment for us, as he was the only one doing at least something, but results-wise it would have been better for the team to micro-manage him.

They did, they told him to keep going.

 

[staubsauger]

@Dekker_Tifosi @Red Rick @dr.eve

Boogerd wasn't even that bad tbh, he simply was the Bayer Leverkusen of cycling at that time. Always getting 2nd at Lombardia, Liege, Amstel etc. But he's been a major contender for the win every time and actually has beaten the likes of Di Luca, Vino, Rebellin numerous times for 2nd only to be beaten by someone else for 1st.

I just realized however that during the early zeros. Apart from Boogerd and Erik Dekker who was kinda on/off there weren't any other major Dutch cyclists around. Blijlevens was already in decline. So was Van Bon. Den Bakker never materialized after his early prospects..... Next in line would be Max van Heeswijk and/or Pieter Weening. Steven den Jongh

That really only changed once the likes of Gesink, Mollema, Kruijswijk & Boom came out of the Rabobank talent team. Plus Thomas Dekker and Ten Dam of course.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

boogerd also had some tactical choices go against him. When he lost to Rebellin both AGR and LBL he was stronger but just couldnt drop him, Rebellin was just faster. Rebellin later said he was on the verge of breaking on Saint Nicolas.. if Boogerd had given just a bit more.
Then a year later Boogerd actually dropped Bettini/Rebellin etc in Liege, only for Vino to stay ahead from a ridicolous long range attacked aided by engine Voigt.... again Boogerd was probably the strongest.. and there's been more races like that. But he didn't have the tactical mind, he just wanted to be one of the deciding factors in the race more than he wanted to race tactically.

Then there was a LBL where he attacked from pretty far but had Joaquin Rodriguez as anchor to his ride who was protecting Valverde's interests... again if he had somebody like Voigt (in the vino edition) he would have made it. Now he was caught in the end and finished 5th. If he had somebody who would ride with him he'd drop him o nsaint nicolas and could've finally won lbl solo.

Also the lombardia edition Cunego won.. Boogerd actually dropped Cunego together with Basso (i think?) but because they were slacking in the descend Cunego came back and beat Boogerd in the sprint. Another unlucky tactical situation