Tour Match Up: Gesink v Van Den Broeck

[DenisMenchov]

You do realize that Rabo managed to win three GT's in the last ten years?

Liquigas, CSC, UsPostal (-> Astana), they are the only teams that have a comparable or better result.

And on the other hand JvdB has team managers that never even pulled of a anything remotely close of a podium spot.... talk about not working in someones favor

Facts are a such a killer versus unwarranted bias...

To be honest Rabo won 4 Gts (Rasmussen 2007 Tour), but all the other were won by Menchov himself, especially Giro 2009.

 

[El Pistolero]

Gilbert domination and Greipel victories really indicates genius GC management.

as for some of the classifications you mentioned. lol.

We're talking about Rabo here. They use some of the dumbest tactics in the book in pretty much every race they start. In the end, you can say Menchov got great help from his team in his GT wins. Wait, no you can't. And Menchov isn't even with Rabo anymore, so you can forget about GT wins.

What's GC management going to decide? Gesink and VDB will just have to follow wheels till they crack and perhaps attack in the final km. There really isn't all that much tactic involved for cyclists like that. OLO is never going to have to control the race for VDB. If they control the race it will be for either Gilbert or Greipel. Same goes for Rabo.

And they're still doing a hell of a lot better than Rabo this season They can't even control their home race, let alone the Tour de France.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Same denial the Dutchies have for Boom at the classics

First thing Gesink has to proof to me is that he can get through a GT without falling. Hence my vote.

El Boterkoek, Boom was better this year in the classics he might actually get to the 250 k mark

Gesink is simply too soft for the Tour, so i am picking JvB

But they'll both finish behind Tony M anyway

You step on Jurgen and I'll cut your head off!

And for this year Jurgen will finish higher but in the coming years Gesink will crush him if he stays on his bike

 

[boomcie]

El Boterkoek, Boom was better this year in the classics he might actually get to the 250 k mark

That one will never get old!

 

[El Pistolero]

In that they won what, five races? And aside from Gilbert no one else could be counted on to win anything of note, flukes aside?

We shall remove the results of the best cyclist from all World Tour teams now to satisfy your needs

What's that? Euskaltel has 0 wins now. Losers. What team is second in the UCI team GC? Is it really Saxo? But, but, but we have to remove Contador's points right?

And they won 11 races last year plus the mountain classification at the Giro. And they placed fifth in the Tour, while a team like Euskaltel that's about as one sided as it gets only has 3 stage wins in the Vuelta(all flukes because I say so) and a fourth place in the Tour to show for their crappy season. And they're build for GTs lol.

 

[python]

no brainer - gesink.
he is one of the brightest talents in cycling and his soft matter is maturing.

great eddy thinks so too.

as to the belgies vs. the dutchies, bruyneel sorted this out too

Meer talent in Nederland dan in België
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/columns/johan_bruyneel/article9656028.ece

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Jurgen isn't that invisible in april though, last year he did very good domestic duties for Gilbert.. This year wasn't as good... + he always sucks at PN

But he'll be at his best again in the tour, he's been good in the last 3 GT's he rode (5th at 2008 Giro, 15th in 2010 TdF because he couldn't stay on his bike, and 5 th in TdF last year.) he'll deliver

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I voted for Gesink, because he has a lot more natural talent than VDB2.

He has to show it this TdF though. I'm not 100% convinced he will show it....
Besides Oman where he had no competition from climbers he wasn't very brilliant on the hills/mountains. I'm not sure what to expect from him in the mountains this year. His TT seems to be a lot better though.

I somehow fear for the TdF this year. Gesink hasn't convinced me yet, but I hope I'm wrong ofcourse.

VDB2 is an uninspiring rider imo. His only focus is the TdF in which he did very well last year, but that simply bores me. Even Andy Schleck shows himself more than VDB2.

Maybe this will ease your thoughts
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/c...94436/__Gesink__Focussen_op_tour__.html?p=3,2

I don't think there is any problem

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

We're talking about Rabo here. They use some of the dumbest tactics in the book in pretty much every race they start. In the end, you can say Menchov got great help from his team in his GT wins. Wait, no you can't. And Menchov isn't even with Rabo anymore, so you can forget about GT wins.

What's GC management going to decide? Gesink and VDB will just have to follow wheels till they crack and perhaps attack in the final km. There really isn't all that much tactic involved for cyclists like that. OLO is never going to have to control the race for VDB. If they control the race it will be for either Gilbert or Greipel. Same goes for Rabo.

And they're still doing a hell of a lot better than Rabo this season They can't even control their home race, let alone the Tour de France.

That's the thing. Gesink does NOT follow wheels until he cracks. He rides his own pace the entire time and choses to let go when he feels it's too high, which is more often than not at the base of a climb rather than at the top.

Vandenbroeck however follows wheels until he cracks and responds to accelerations. Totally different style from Gesink really.

 

[theyoungest]

And they're still doing a hell of a lot better than Rabo this season

Gilbert is doing very well, that's right. But in any race where he doesn't participate, Lotto play little to no role whatsoever.

They can't even control their home race, let alone the Tour de France.

What? Talk about flawed logic.

 

[El Pistolero]

Gilbert is doing very well, that's right. But in any race where he doesn't participate, Lotto play little to no role whatsoever.


What? Talk about flawed logic.

And in what way is Rabo doing better?

Better to have a big winner than not to have one.

The same can be said about many teams... Saxo, Euskaltel, AG2R, Vacansolei, Lampre, Quickstep,Astana, Katusha, BMC, Sky, etc

I think I already covered more than half of the World Tour teams here I rest my case.

 

[theyoungest]

And in what way is Rabo doing better?

I'm not saying they're necessarily doing better than Lotto (in the classics, definitely not) but the depth of their team is significantly bigger. Like I said, when Gilbert isn't there, who takes over? Bart de Clercq? In terms of GC riders, there's really no comparison between Lotto and Rabo.

Better to have a big winner than not to have one.

That's true.

The same can be said about many teams... Saxo, Euskaltel, AG2R, Vacansolei, Lampre, Quickstep,Astana, Katusha, BMC, Sky, etc

What's your point? All those teams have more guys who can do a good GC/one day race result than Lotto. Yes, even BMC.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not saying they're necessarily doing better than Lotto (in the classics, definitely not) but the depth of their team is significantly bigger. Like I said, when Gilbert isn't there, who takes over? Bart de Clercq? In terms of GC riders, there's really no comparison between Lotto and Rabo.


That's true.


What's your point? All those teams have more guys who can do a good GC/one day race result than Lotto. Yes, even BMC.

That's why all these teams never win anything besides their main man?
Besides, I'm not counting Cunego or Ballan anymore. Game over for them. Who cares about this depth of a team like Rabo when one guy can outperform whole teams? It surely can't be so deep then. Face it, not every team is like Radioshack and HTC that can win with any cyclist they have. And having a lot of winners doesn't seem to help Leopard or Garmin-Cervelo this season.

I really love that depth they have at Saxo, AG2R, BMC, Euskaltel(what depth? Most one dimensional team in the World Tour), Quickstep

 

[just some guy]

Who cares about this depth of a team like Rabo when one guy can outperform whole teams?

Hence why Phil will be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Peyote]

no brainer - gesink.
he is one of the brightest talents in cycling and his soft matter is maturing.

great eddy thinks so too.

I agree. Gesink is the bigger talent.

as to the belgies vs. the dutchies, bruyneel sorted this out too

Meer talent in Nederland dan in België
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/columns/johan_bruyneel/article9656028.ece

Hmm, I don't know. Maybe Holland has the better GC riders but overall it's close I think.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

belgium has far more potential classics top riders and sprinters.

only in gc riders, they have 1 (jvdb) and maybe 1/2 other promising ones. while the netherlands have many more

 

[El Pistolero]

Johan Bruyneel even saw GT potential in Stijn Devolder. He and armstrong went as far as to say he could win the Tour

Joking aside, I see potential in 2 young Dutchies to break through: Wout Poels and Kruisdingie

I don't have faith in the likes of Bauke Mollema though.

 

[The Hitch]

Regarding the Dutchies hype dutchies too much part of the debate.

Surprise of the Giro?
Kruijswijk, didn't expect that good of a performance.


Which riders performed beyond expectations?
kruijswijk. nibbles at times.

Timmy, you had Kruijswijk down for 17th before the Giro started but didnt have Gadret in your top 20.

Was Kruijswijk really your biggest surprise

Was there not someone else who performed beyond expectations

Surprise of the Giro? Kruijwijk. Honorable mention to Gadret

To a lesser extent you to Moondance. You had Gadret 14th and Kruisjwick 20th. Surely the guy scraping the top 10 from 20th rather than owning several gt contenders from 14th deserves the "honorable mention" side of the equation.

Its just a shame DT didnt particpate in this, as it would have been nice to see him explain how the guy he probably would have predicted for a podium, can be the biggest surprise when coming 9th

 

[theyoungest]

Regarding the Dutchies hype dutchies too much part of the debate.




Timmy, you had Kruijswijk down for 17th before the Giro started but didnt have Gadret in your top 20.

Was Kruijswijk really your biggest surprise

Was there not someone else who performed beyond expectations



To a lesser extent you to Moondance. You had Gadret 14th and Kruisjwick 20th. Surely the guy scraping the top 10 from 20th rather than owning several gt contenders from 14th deserves the "honorable mention" side of the equation.

Its just a shame DT didnt particpate in this, as it would have been nice to see him explain how the guy he probably would have predicted for a podium, can be the biggest surprise when coming 9th

Yes, Moondance and TLR were the only guys to pick Kruijswijk as their biggest surprise...

Dekker_T is the Dutch equivalent of El Pistrollero, the rest of us are perfectly sane

 

[Moondance]

To a lesser extent you to Moondance. You had Gadret 14th and Kruisjwick 20th. Surely the guy scraping the top 10 from 20th rather than owning several gt contenders from 14th deserves the "honorable mention" side of the equation.

Its just a shame DT didnt particpate in this, as it would have been nice to see him explain how the guy he probably would have predicted for a podium, can be the biggest surprise when coming 9th

Kruijswijk was 11 places better than predict, Gadret 10. You do the math....

 

[Flamin]

Jurgen isn't that invisible in april though, last year he did very good domestic duties for Gilbert.. This year wasn't as good... + he always sucks at PN

But he'll be at his best again in the tour, he's been good in the last 3 GT's he rode (5th at 2008 Giro, 15th in 2010 TdF because he couldn't stay on his bike, and 5 th in TdF last year.) he'll deliver

really? In AGR, he set an immense pace for like 10k, deep in the finale. Last year, he was only at the front for 1 or 2k (still very good he was there after 260k though).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Regarding the Dutchies hype dutchies too much part of the debate.




Timmy, you had Kruijswijk down for 17th before the Giro started but didnt have Gadret in your top 20.

Was Kruijswijk really your biggest surprise

Was there not someone else who performed beyond expectations



To a lesser extent you to Moondance. You had Gadret 14th and Kruisjwick 20th. Surely the guy scraping the top 10 from 20th rather than owning several gt contenders from 14th deserves the "honorable mention" side of the equation.

Its just a shame DT didnt particpate in this, as it would have been nice to see him explain how the guy he probably would have predicted for a podium, can be the biggest surprise when coming 9th

I actually did predict Kruijswijk top 15, around the place Mollema ended.

By the way, in general I usually more underhype Dutchies than you would think. With most of them I'm very careful in predicting end results in classifcations. And more than often they out perform my expectations

So you are not making a strong point here. In fact, you just pointed out that most Dutch people underrated Kruijswijk before the race. Thank you for showing us how un-hyping we are

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Yes, Moondance and TLR were the only guys to pick Kruijswijk as their biggest surprise...

Dekker_T is the Dutch equivalent of El Pistrollero, the rest of us are perfectly sane

Which is not true. whenver I make a prediction I don't make outlandisch claims like El Pistoletje or ACF mine usually make sense and more often than not they outperform my expectations.
So there.

The only thing I'm different than you guys is that I don't see how the **** people think the likes of Nibali or worse, even Kreuziger, could possible be better than Gesink for instance.

 

[Spine Concept]

Regarding the Dutchies hype dutchies too much part of the debate.




Timmy, you had Kruijswijk down for 17th before the Giro started but didnt have Gadret in your top 20.

Was Kruijswijk really your biggest surprise

Was there not someone else who performed beyond expectations



To a lesser extent you to Moondance. You had Gadret 14th and Kruisjwick 20th. Surely the guy scraping the top 10 from 20th rather than owning several gt contenders from 14th deserves the "honorable mention" side of the equation.

Its just a shame DT didnt particpate in this, as it would have been nice to see him explain how the guy he probably would have predicted for a podium, can be the biggest surprise when coming 9th

Is this your purpose in life? Waiting for some Dutch posters on a cycling forum to slip up so you can pounce on them?

 

[boomcie]

The only thing I'm different than you guys is that I don't see how the **** people think the likes of Nibali or worse, even Kreuziger, could possible be better than Gesink for instance.

It's not just about rough talent, it's also about actual and tangible wins on the road.

Gesink has Emilia (x2), Montreal and Oman.
Nibali has a stage in the Giro (+2 podiums in the GC) and has won the Vuelta.

I personally believe Gesink is better, but I do understand why people rate Nibali higher. An important part of being a good racer is winning (big) races, something which Gesink has sucked at so far.