Tour of Beijing - World Tour - Say what?

[auscyclefan94]

sorry, but that is quite an ignorant and insulting comment. "Asain countries are incapable to hold major events?" The Beijing Olympics were universally regarded as a success, sure the spectators may not have understood the finer nuances of some of the sports they were watching, but the games as a whole (and not just cylcing) were well run and well organised. Japan & Korea hosted a very good World Cup in 2002. I think your view is very narrow minded. So many on this forum are constantly extolling the virtues of trying to globalize the sport and find new markets away from it's traditional European base, and as has been proved this year with the 2 races in Canada it can be done. Sure, maybe Beijing is not the ideal place environmentally or politically to stage a bike race, but for the sport to grow it needs to expose itself to a wider audience. I am sure you would like to see the sport become more global? wouldn't you? or is you idea of globalization just having another Pro Tour race in Australia or America? because the White guys won't screw it up will they?

It is nothing to do with race or skin colour you muppet.

- The whole Tibet issue, especially theTibet protests made torch relay look like a joke.
- Security
- Pollution
- Miming of the peformer in the closing ceremony
- All the road events not allowing public to watch
- Fabrication of crowds
- Media censorship by games organisers
- Riots throughout games
- Tourism was well below what was expected

So to call the beijing games a success is very much from the truth no matter what the IOC or the Beijing organisers want to put on it.

I am all for the sport growing but China is not the place as they cannot run events properley.

My view is not narrow minded as I think many would agree with me that it was not an overly well run or organised games.

 

[adamski101]

It is nothing to do with race or skin colour you muppet.

- The whole Tibet issue, especially theTibet protests made torch relay look like a joke.
- Security
- Pollution
- Miming of the peformer in the closing ceremony
- All the road events not allowing public to watch
- Fabrication of crowds
- Media censorship by games organisers
- Riots throughout games
- Tourism was well below what was expected

So to call the beijing games a success is very much from the truth no matter what the IOC or the Beijing organisers want to put on it.

I am all for the sport growing but China is not the place as they cannot run events properley.

My view is not narrow minded as I think many would agree with me that it was not an overly well run or organised games.

i notice that when someone question your point of view you get very defensive and your first recourse seems to be to insult them in some way. so well doen, and very grown up of you for calling me a muppet. You must be very proud.

Your original statement was for Asia as a whole so not sure why your counter arguement centres entirely around China. As I said in my original comment, but i note that you have conveniently ignored it, was that China due to environmental and political issues is not the best place for a race to be held. The point I was trying to make, as other on this thread have, is that in order for cycling to reach a larger market you need to go where the money is and wehere the peole are. It's basic economics.

The sport needs to grow and countries like China, Japan & Korea are potentially huge markets. The chances are, like many of the UCI fligh of fantasy, it will never happen, but if it does I feel it should be given a chance.

I just wish you wouldn't get so defensive when someone challenges your point of view.

 

[cabbagetom]

- The whole Tibet issue, especially theTibet protests made torch relay look like a joke.

I don't doubt this is a sensitive issue; but prejudice and excessive behaviour towards those who don't share the same views is not an inherently Chinese problem. Think about the number of prisoners unlawfully and illegally detained at Guantanamo.

- Security

I'm not really sure what you're referencing here. There was very little crime or illegal behaviour, and there was no terrorist attack. In fact I have never spoken to one person here during the Beijing Olympics who suggested they felt threatened or scared at any stage.

- Pollution

London in the 19th Century. Beijing at the beginning of 21st century. Find me the capital country of a developing nation past, present or future that doesn't have environmental problem of some sort. The Chinese government has become very apt at removing the unhealthy pollution from the skies when there is a major visit or event. Heck they did it for Lady Gaga's visit to Beijing. They can sure as hell (as they sure as hell will) do it for the Beijing tour.

- Miming of the peformer in the closing ceremony

Kylie Minogue, Britney Spears, Madonna. What do they all have in common. They have all mimed in performance. And none of them are Chinese. Pretending that you sing like an angel is a lie not only reserved for Chinese performers.

- All the road events not allowing public to watch

Um, really? I watched it live...in some areas crowds were forbidden due to narrow roads, inaccessibility, lack of parking in the area...but it wasn't some weird obsession by the Beijing authorities to stop people having some fun...

- Fabrication of crowds

Once again, not sure what you mean by this. If you mean giving away free tickets to make it look there is vast interest then that does happen in other countries. When I was back in the UK I was given some free tickets to a cooking show so it would look like the program was popular. And I was told when to clap to

- Media censorship by games organisers

Agreed, there are questions about censorship in China. But at the Olympics it wasn't about sport, it was about other issues. And you do realise that the Chinese government is not the only country to create press blackout's. When Prince Harry was deployed to the Middle East, the Ministry of Defense ordered no coverage in British newspapers. I accept the reasons are different entirely, but I'm trying to suggest you shouldn't go cynically bashing Chinese press when Western media often has serious questions of veracity.

- Riots throughout games

You should go to some Italian football matches and see if it's entirely peaceful. People die in riots there.

- Tourism was well below what was expected

I presume you're talking about Delhi, which I can't really speak for. The Beijing Olympics had massive tourism benefits before, during, and after.

So to call the beijing games a success is very much from the truth no matter what the IOC or the Beijing organisers want to put on it.

Actually I have been to Sydney, and lived in Beijing, both for sizable lengths of time. I would say the legacy of the Olympics is far deeper in China than in Australia. In Beijing the official theme song is still massively popular; official sponsors still promote their connection with the Beijing Olympics; volunteers still wear their faded T-shirts given to them 2 years ago; locals are incredibly proud about the fact that the Olympics came to Beijing. I would say Sydneysiders are comparatively apathetic.

I am all for the sport growing but China is not the place as they cannot run events properley.

My view is not narrow minded as I think many would agree with me that it was not an overly well run or organised games.

I'll have to agree to disagree

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this race won't happen, like those two Russian PT races that was meant to happen, but never did.

Mmm..perhaps you are right; but I actually think that it will go ahead. The Chinese government leapfrogs between major events, each providing impetus for the country's growth. From the Beijing Olympics, to the Combat Sports games (probably means very little to many people, but it was very important here), the yearly improvement of the Shanghai F1 Grand Prix, the Shanghai Expo; and now the Guangzhou Asian Games. Sure, perhaps some of these sports are not received quite as enthusiastically as in Western nations; but I think the government itself will put in every effort to make it as successful as possible. Perhaps China's economy is making great strides; but until China can challenge the West's cultural and sporting hegemony it can never became a superpower in the way that the United States may be defined as one. I'm almost certainly being cynical; but I feel this enthusiasm to host the Beijing Tour is a small attempt to learn from, imitate, and then ultimately surpass Western sporting traditions.

 

[Anonymous]

It is nothing to do with race or skin colour you muppet.

Your original comment was "asian countries" cannot hold sporting events. That was a little short sighted to be honest and slightly stupid.

For me, as this thread has now finally descended into politics, I will not support a country that has a human rights record as appalling as china has. Slave labour, thousands subjected to the death penalty, manipulation and censorship of the media. Until they can sort themselves out they dont deserve to benefit from sporting occasions. If I was a rider, that would be one of the events I would simply refuse to ride, as an athlete I would have boycotted the bejing olympics.

 

[moomooranch]

I don't see anything wrong with this? China has 1/6 of the world's population, who have no relation with the government other than being born under its jurisdiction. Among them, many have the potential to become cycling fans. Cycling was never popular in my country, and I became a cycling fan only once I saw cycling racing. The same will indefinitely happen to some Chinese viewers, especially now since there are some good Chinese female track riders and Asian teams like Marco Polo.

 

[Christian]

Doesn't Beijing have one of the highest air-pollutions in the world?

There was very little crime or illegal behaviour

Not very surprising in a totalitarian police-state.

For a long time the safest city on Earth was Moscow.

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, as far as dictatorships go(one nation state), China has one of the best.

 

[lucybears]

For me, as this thread has now finally descended into politics, I will not support a country that has a human rights record as appalling as china has.

So, how about the Tour of California ?

Former President Bush is unapologetic about his decision to have captured (suspected) terrorists waterboarded.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3223809/Sun-writer-endures-waterboarding-agony.html
or do you disagree with that reporter, who says
This is no "interrogation technique" but torture pure and simple with no place in a civilised society.

Guantánamo Bay - A Human Rights Scandal
http://www.amnestyusa.org/counter-t...y---a-human-rights-scandal/page.do?id=1108202

TEAM AMERICA - World Police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R5dk0JY2xc

Get off your high horse
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/get-off-your-high-horse.html
.

 

[Mambo95]

It is nothing to do with race or skin colour you muppet.

- The whole Tibet issue, especially theTibet protests made torch relay look like a joke.
- Security
- Pollution
- Miming of the peformer in the closing ceremony
- All the road events not allowing public to watch
- Fabrication of crowds
- Media censorship by games organisers
- Riots throughout games
- Tourism was well below what was expected

So to call the beijing games a success is very much from the truth no matter what the IOC or the Beijing organisers want to put on it.

I am all for the sport growing but China is not the place as they cannot run events properley.

My view is not narrow minded as I think many would agree with me that it was not an overly well run or organised games.

I actually went to the Beijing Olympics. Now, the road race, which I had a hell of a time going up to watch (very little) was a disaster for fans. But that was on the first day and they gradually learned a lot through the games. Overall I had a great time.

The security had teething troubles but were sorted out, the pollution is overstated (according to my cousin who's lived there for five years), and there were no riots (it's the safest I've felt in any city in the world).

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that they will organize it brilliantly. The problem will be getting/allowing people to watch.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't doubt this is a sensitive issue; but prejudice and excessive behaviour towards those who don't share the same views is not an inherently Chinese problem. Think about the number of prisoners unlawfully and illegally detained at Guantanamo.

I'm not really sure what you're referencing here. There was very little crime or illegal behaviour, and there was no terrorist attack. In fact I have never spoken to one person here during the Beijing Olympics who suggested they felt threatened or scared at any stage.

London in the 19th Century. Beijing at the beginning of 21st century. Find me the capital country of a developing nation past, present or future that doesn't have environmental problem of some sort. The Chinese government has become very apt at removing the unhealthy pollution from the skies when there is a major visit or event. Heck they did it for Lady Gaga's visit to Beijing. They can sure as hell (as they sure as hell will) do it for the Beijing tour.

Kylie Minogue, Britney Spears, Madonna. What do they all have in common. They have all mimed in performance. And none of them are Chinese. Pretending that you sing like an angel is a lie not only reserved for Chinese performers.

Um, really? I watched it live...in some areas crowds were forbidden due to narrow roads, inaccessibility, lack of parking in the area...but it wasn't some weird obsession by the Beijing authorities to stop people having some fun...

Once again, not sure what you mean by this. If you mean giving away free tickets to make it look there is vast interest then that does happen in other countries. When I was back in the UK I was given some free tickets to a cooking show so it would look like the program was popular. And I was told when to clap to

Agreed, there are questions about censorship in China. But at the Olympics it wasn't about sport, it was about other issues. And you do realise that the Chinese government is not the only country to create press blackout's. When Prince Harry was deployed to the Middle East, the Ministry of Defense ordered no coverage in British newspapers. I accept the reasons are different entirely, but I'm trying to suggest you shouldn't go cynically bashing Chinese press when Western media often has serious questions of veracity.

You should go to some Italian football matches and see if it's entirely peaceful. People die in riots there.
I presume you're talking about Delhi, which I can't really speak for. The Beijing Olympics had massive tourism benefits before, during, and after.


Actually I have been to Sydney, and lived in Beijing, both for sizable lengths of time. I would say the legacy of the Olympics is far deeper in China than in Australia. In Beijing the official theme song is still massively popular; official sponsors still promote their connection with the Beijing Olympics; volunteers still wear their faded T-shirts given to them 2 years ago; locals are incredibly proud about the fact that the Olympics came to Beijing. I would say Sydneysiders are comparatively apathetic.


I'll have to agree to disagree



Mmm..perhaps you are right; but I actually think that it will go ahead. The Chinese government leapfrogs between major events, each providing impetus for the country's growth. From the Beijing Olympics, to the Combat Sports games (probably means very little to many people, but it was very important here), the yearly improvement of the Shanghai F1 Grand Prix, the Shanghai Expo; and now the Guangzhou Asian Games. Sure, perhaps some of these sports are not received quite as enthusiastically as in Western nations; but I think the government itself will put in every effort to make it as successful as possible. Perhaps China's economy is making great strides; but until China can challenge the West's cultural and sporting hegemony it can never became a superpower in the way that the United States may be defined as one. I'm almost certainly being cynical; but I feel this enthusiasm to host the Beijing Tour is a small attempt to learn from, imitate, and then ultimately surpass Western sporting traditions.

- From the comfort of my home, watching my television, there was too much security which disallowed a lot of people to watch the event. Cadel Evans' wife had to be sneaked into a commentary box and had to lie so she could watch her husband in the RR. many partners of athletes

-I think Tibet was a bigger issue for China than Guantanamo is.

- Beijing is one of the most polluted cities in the world. Air quality is terrible. imagine competing in a 250km bike race breathing in bad quality air...

-With the chinese performer, they told her she was not good enough so they made her mime and had another girl sing. I think that is pretty shoddy to do that to a girl. Why did they originally select her to sing then?

-With the tourism for beijing, hotel owners lowered their prices for 40% so it was very cheap for tourists to come over. There were also a lot of empty seats at multiple events even though the organisers said it was sold out. That says that either people decided to not go to Beijing or the organisers lied about how 6.8 billion tickets were sold. Tickets were also not easy to get for tourists. 1 year before the games, international visitors fell by 19%. I wonder why that is! $6 million worth of tickets were also sold illegitamately.tourism may have risen after it but it certainly was not as good during it. It may have been after but it wasn't as good during or before.

- The riots about the tibetan people which wrecked the relay precessions were all around the world.

- Your comment about sydney and beijing is stupid as Sydney games were in 2000 and were the best olympic games ever. beijing was 2 years ago and Sydney was 10 years ago.

i notice that when someone question your point of view you get very defensive and your first recourse seems to be to insult them in some way. so well doen, and very grown up of you for calling me a muppet. You must be very proud.
.

You made a false accusation towards me that was completely unfair. I will call you what i like muppett!

Look, they may do a very good job at at hosting this bike race but nobody will convince me that those games were not shambolic. The worse part for me was finding out from numerous athletes across different sport about how they had cheerleaders fill up sots being told when to cheer and what to say wearing the same coloured clotinhg. Fabricated...

 

[Anonymous]

So, how about the Tour of California ?

replied in pm. I thought twice before commenting on China. I think my thoughts on various aspects of America are best kept private. Its not just America mind you, the list of british companies and products we boycott is fairly extensive. However, China are the only country still murdering 3000 people a year via a single shot to the head, for petty crimes as far as I know. And thats the last Im saying on Politics. I would be virtually lynched around here for my political views.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't doubt this is a sensitive issue; but prejudice and excessive behaviour towards those who don't share the same views is not an inherently Chinese problem. Think about the number of prisoners unlawfully and illegally detained at Guantanamo.

Many countries illegally detain prisoners. Its an unfortunate situation and can be discussed in the general politics forum. At a sporting level, not even France, a country which blows up greenpeace protesters, is going to tightly control everything that is said and done at a sporting event. If you want a sporting example (since this is a sporting forum) a blogger who suggested that Lui Xiang was forced to withdraw by Nike, is still being hunted by the chinese police.

London in the 19th Century. Beijing at the beginning of 21st century. Find me the capital country of a developing nation past, present or future that doesn't have environmental problem of some sort. The Chinese government has become very apt at removing the unhealthy pollution from the skies when there is a major visit or event. Heck they did it for Lady Gaga's visit to Beijing. They can sure as hell (as they sure as hell will) do it for the Beijing tour.

If Beijing doesnt have a worse pollution problem than other cities, how comes Haile Gabreselasi, threw away his own olympic marathon dream not to run there. He decided before the Beijing olympics that he would rather risk running it in 2012 as a 40 year old in London, than in Beijing as a 36 year old, because the pollution is so high.

Once again, not sure what you mean by this. If you mean giving away free tickets to make it look there is vast interest then that does happen in other countries. When I was back in the UK I was given some free tickets to a cooking show so it would look like the program was popular. And I was told when to clap to

Again. Not the same. In the Uk roads are sometimes closed when a head of state visits. This does not make it the moral equivalent of having entire lanes reserved solely for Communist higher ups while everyone else waits in trafic as was done in Soviet Moscow.
Similarly on a tv programme in a free country, the audience might be advised when to clap. But I doubt the British secret police were taking information on anyone who was not clapping

I'm not really sure what you're referencing here. There was very little crime or illegal behaviour, and there was no terrorist attack. In fact I have never spoken to one person here during the Beijing Olympics who suggested they felt threatened or scared at any stage.

From what i have read about Triads, corruption in police, gang murders in some Chinese cities Crime in China may be a problem. You have been in Beijing so you probably know more about this than me but then again, there are about 90 Chinese cities with a population of more than a million, and i think its in these lesser known metropolises that Crime is big. Still your right that it wouldnt have much of an impact on any sporting event since the dictatorship would not allow these events to be targeted. No tourist would be thretened.

Agreed, there are questions about censorship in China. But at the Olympics it wasn't about sport, it was about other issues. And you do realise that the Chinese government is not the only country to create press blackout's. When Prince Harry was deployed to the Middle East, the Ministry of Defense ordered no coverage in British newspapers. I accept the reasons are different entirely, but I'm trying to suggest you shouldn't go cynically bashing Chinese press when Western media often has serious questions of veracity.

Its not just the motives which are different. Its the threat. Compare these 2 and tell me if you see a difference.

1 We have made the stupid decision of sending his majesty to Afghanistan risking many peoples lives. In the interest of protecting these lives would you please not cover this for a while. In return you will have a very very very juicy story in about 13 weeks time. If you do not comply we will do our best to embarass you, deny you interviews. The sort of things that as citizens we can do.

2 We have made the decision, tosend to a prison camp, the officer from Hunan province, who complained that criminal gangs were terrorising the people in his city and that he felt they were getting government help. Please do not cover this story. If you do you and your family will lose everything you have and find yourselves in a reeducation camp.

Do you really not see a almighty difference between these 2?

 

[Hoop Dogg]

Political****festtakeitsomewhereelse.com

 

[roundabout]

+1. I am surprised that mods are letting it slide even if it's Saturday.

 

[Barrus]

Anyone who continues to bring up Chinese politics and human rights abuses, unless they are DIRECTLY related to cycling in general, or this event in particular, will have to face the consequences

 

[sublimit]

Wont this clash with the Worlds? Stupid timing.
This race seems to be as welcome as a US unmanned drone is at a Paakistan wedding party by the looks of things.

 

[Hoop Dogg]

Getting back to original topic...
In reference to the comments about the emerging economies of the east, we of the English (and former) colonies who enjoy the game of cricket have been exposed recently to a MASSIVE shift in the dynamics of power in the sport. Much in the way that cycling has always been a eurocentric sport, the game of cricket has for over a century been controlled by the MCC, a thoroughly British institution. After years off figuratively taking it up the ****, the emerging Indian economy has now allowed it's governing body to dictate the t&c of the game. The Indians have revolutionized the sport by introducing more generation Y friendly formats (built for those of us born after 1980 who apparently have short attention spans and desire for instant gratification).

You may ask what's my point? I'm just trying to point out that a sport that is steeped in tradition (much like cycling is) is not immune to the influence of emerging superpowers. If uncle pat is hellbent on the globalization of the sport, and chasing the almighty $$$, I think it will b a case of when not if races start popping up in these non traditional regions. Have a look a Qatar and Oman for instance, how many diehard cycling fans do u think live there? As well as Giant, a Malaysian company that already sponsors a number of pro teams being a mjor player in the industry.

I guess time will tell...

 

[Mambo95]

Getting back to original topic...
In reference to the comments about the emerging economies of the east, we of the English (and former) colonies who enjoy the game of cricket have been exposed recently to a MASSIVE shift in the dynamics of power in the sport. Much in the way that cycling has always been a eurocentric sport, the game of cricket has for over a century been controlled by the MCC, a thoroughly British institution. After years off figuratively taking it up the ****, the emerging Indian economy has now allowed it's governing body to dictate the t&c of the game. The Indians have revolutionized the sport by introducing more generation Y friendly formats (built for those of us born after 1980 who apparently have short attention spans and desire for instant gratification).

Sorry to go back off topic again, but that's not what happened at all. Twenty20 started in England in 2003 (by the ECB, not the MCC, who haven't been in charge of anything since 1993), heavily backed by Sky. The Indians were actually initially very resistant to the format and didn't play it at all until 2006. What changed was that they surprisingly won the first World Cup in 2007, as rank outsiders, and the Indian public went mad for it, leading to the multi-million pound IPL.

Ironically, the point you were illustrating with this, that cycling needs to modernise a bit, I generallly agree with.

 

[Hoop Dogg]

I stand corrected. But yes the point of the post was more about the second paragraph.

 

[craig1985]

I don't doubt this is a sensitive issue; but prejudice and excessive behaviour towards those who don't share the same views is not an inherently Chinese problem. Think about the number of prisoners unlawfully and illegally detained at Guantanamo.

I'm not really sure what you're referencing here. There was very little crime or illegal behaviour, and there was no terrorist attack. In fact I have never spoken to one person here during the Beijing Olympics who suggested they felt threatened or scared at any stage.

London in the 19th Century. Beijing at the beginning of 21st century. Find me the capital country of a developing nation past, present or future that doesn't have environmental problem of some sort. The Chinese government has become very apt at removing the unhealthy pollution from the skies when there is a major visit or event. Heck they did it for Lady Gaga's visit to Beijing. They can sure as hell (as they sure as hell will) do it for the Beijing tour.

Kylie Minogue, Britney Spears, Madonna. What do they all have in common. They have all mimed in performance. And none of them are Chinese. Pretending that you sing like an angel is a lie not only reserved for Chinese performers.

Um, really? I watched it live...in some areas crowds were forbidden due to narrow roads, inaccessibility, lack of parking in the area...but it wasn't some weird obsession by the Beijing authorities to stop people having some fun...

Once again, not sure what you mean by this. If you mean giving away free tickets to make it look there is vast interest then that does happen in other countries. When I was back in the UK I was given some free tickets to a cooking show so it would look like the program was popular. And I was told when to clap to

Agreed, there are questions about censorship in China. But at the Olympics it wasn't about sport, it was about other issues. And you do realise that the Chinese government is not the only country to create press blackout's. When Prince Harry was deployed to the Middle East, the Ministry of Defense ordered no coverage in British newspapers. I accept the reasons are different entirely, but I'm trying to suggest you shouldn't go cynically bashing Chinese press when Western media often has serious questions of veracity.

You should go to some Italian football matches and see if it's entirely peaceful. People die in riots there.
I presume you're talking about Delhi, which I can't really speak for. The Beijing Olympics had massive tourism benefits before, during, and after.


Actually I have been to Sydney, and lived in Beijing, both for sizable lengths of time. I would say the legacy of the Olympics is far deeper in China than in Australia. In Beijing the official theme song is still massively popular; official sponsors still promote their connection with the Beijing Olympics; volunteers still wear their faded T-shirts given to them 2 years ago; locals are incredibly proud about the fact that the Olympics came to Beijing. I would say Sydneysiders are comparatively apathetic.


I'll have to agree to disagree



Mmm..perhaps you are right; but I actually think that it will go ahead. The Chinese government leapfrogs between major events, each providing impetus for the country's growth. From the Beijing Olympics, to the Combat Sports games (probably means very little to many people, but it was very important here), the yearly improvement of the Shanghai F1 Grand Prix, the Shanghai Expo; and now the Guangzhou Asian Games. Sure, perhaps some of these sports are not received quite as enthusiastically as in Western nations; but I think the government itself will put in every effort to make it as successful as possible. Perhaps China's economy is making great strides; but until China can challenge the West's cultural and sporting hegemony it can never became a superpower in the way that the United States may be defined as one. I'm almost certainly being cynical; but I feel this enthusiasm to host the Beijing Tour is a small attempt to learn from, imitate, and then ultimately surpass Western sporting traditions.

Thinking about this, and a change in my personal situation, I may end up in China next year, so this actually be a good thing for me after all. I mean why not? If Canada can get two PT races, **** it, give some to China.

 

[lucybears]

Teams to boycott race
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/wielersport/article9796347.ece?cid=rss

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

good. this is just about $$ for the uci.

 

[jens_attacks]

you're all living the last breaths of uci pigs.enjoy it!

 

[craig1985]

I was in Beijing a few weeks back, flatsville if there ever was one.

 

[Mambo95]

I was in Beijing a few weeks back, flatsville if there ever was one.

There are plenty of hills and mountains in the far west and north areas of the city.