UCI has one 'last chance to prove its credibility'

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Jul 18, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
How is jail as a penalty going for reducing:
violent crime
murder
larceny
drug running
etc?

Jail is not the answer.

I realise this is going OT, in fact manifesto vs UCI proving their credibility is OT. So I'll can it there.
Actually the rate of crime in society is no were near as rampant as doping in cycling. It does not dominate life in the way doping dominates cycling.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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henryg said:
Actually the rate of crime in society is no were near as rampant as doping in cycling. It does not dominate life in the way doping dominates cycling.
Exactly my point. Even in France, with the threat of jail, they still dope. So introducing jail threats everywhere else: pointless.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Exactly my point. Even in France, with the threat of jail, they still dope. So introducing jail threats everywhere else: pointless.
The jail threat is for helpers. Without anti-doping laws, it's not possible to raid a bus, or a hotel room.
So that kind of laws are needed to involve police.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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poupou said:
The jail threat is for helpers. Without anti-doping laws, it's not possible to raid a bus, or a hotel room.
So that kind of laws are needed to involve police.
Merci pour le clarifcation. Much appreciated.

For me:
Bus or hotel room raiding laws = good.
Threat of jail = bad.

The point above that I am disagreeing with is that jail threats prevent or affect doping. I disagree. Coz doping is clearly still happening.

Is it possible to have the raiding laws without the jail bits n pieces? Or contingent on severity of transgression? Just thinking out loud - would welcome continued discourse.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Merci pour le clarifcation. Much appreciated.

For me:
Bus or hotel room raiding laws = good.
Threat of jail = bad.

The point above that I am disagreeing with is that jail threats prevent or affect doping. I disagree. Coz doping is clearly still happening.

Is it possible to have the raiding laws without the jail bits n pieces? Or contingent on severity of transgression? Just thinking out loud - would welcome continued discourse.
To give unneeded medicine is unhealthy, so that is a physical agression, that can led to death. Therefore, it's a criminal matter, even if people are not always aware of.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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poupou said:
To give unneeded medicine is unhealthy, so that is a physical agression, that can led to death. Therefore, it's a criminal matter, even if people are not always aware of.
That makes a bucketload of sense, and should be easily mimicked in other countries, surely?

Except the US perhaps, where prescribing anything under the sun is de rigueur, and age-health clinics abound.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
The teams have so many doctors, why? doping reasons! to either prevent riders getting caught or enable doping and help riders beat testing.

So those thinking it is the riders who are at fault are ignoring the reality.
I have been thinking the same as you recently so maybe team doctors is an area for reform. If you look at Radioshack they have 4 team doctors. I would guess the average person goes to their Doctor maybe once or twice a year perhaps? So why does a "clean" team need 4 full time doctors?

The other thing is that you would probably have to renumerate such a doctor quite well to pull them away from private practice which in itself (certainly in the UK) is pretty lucrative these days. So the wage bill for 4 Doctors would be quite a few hundred thousand euros which is quite an investment...............for what though?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Speaking of credibility... I had seen this in a twitter feed and thought it unbelievable. Apparently not...


http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jan07/jan09news2

According to the paper ABC, when Fuentes was arrested in Madrid last May 23rd he had in his possession a black wallet which contained one clearly identifiable name; that of Valverde. When police searched it they found nine credit cards, a card from 2004 bearing the names and numbers of the Liberty Seguros team, business cards belonging to Mario Zorzoli (medical chief of the UCI) and Emilio Lamparero, who the paper reported has worked as a psychologist with football club Real Madrid. Most interestingly, there was also a card from the hotel Silken with the names "Ale," "Manc," "Vino," "Popo" and "Valverde" written on it.
Maybe it means nothing. Maybe they are buddies. Maybe he kept them (it says cards) as a joke.

Maybe.

Wasn't Ferrari saying something about giving Zorzoli a call and having suspicious values ... ah yes
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=115

In the spring of 2010, some riders of a Pro-Tour team that were training at altitude (on Teide, Tenerife) were subjected to the normal ABP samples. One they received the results of the analysis, considering them unreliable (the values were too high), all it took was a phone call from the team doctor to his friend Dr. Zorzoli, in charge of UCI's doping department, in order to get the results of those tests cleared from the profiles, as deemed inconvenient for the Team and for the sake of the Biological Passport system, which tends not to consider the effects of altitude.
Racing through the Dark (David Millar)

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/6/17/2228568/Racing-Through-The-Dark
After the Ronde, Millar spoke to Mauro Gianetti. As at Cofidis, he was ignored. He contacted the UCI. They said they were looking into the matter. But the UCI's chief medical officer, Mario Zorzoli, was friends with Gianetti ("I am not suggesting that this affected Zorzoli's work, but it was indicative of a wider conflict of interests. The UCI's positioning, as both promoters of cycling and guardians of its ethics, has always been controversial.").
Mauro Gianetti
Team Manager: 2004–2011 Saunier Duval-Prodir
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Speaking of credibility... I had seen this in a twitter feed and thought it unbelievable. Apparently not...




Maybe it means nothing. Maybe they are buddies. Maybe he kept them (it says cards) as a joke.

Maybe.

Wasn't Ferrari saying something about giving Zorzoli a call and having suspicious values ... ah yes


Racing through the Dark (David Millar)



Mauro Gianetti
Team Manager: 2004–2011 Saunier Duval-Prodir

David Millar being politically correct again.:rolleyes:
("I'm not suggesting", "controversial"...)

Interesting on Zorzoli. IIRC, he was also involved in trying to get Contador off the hook in 2010, though I don't remember the details. Anyway, this guy Zorzoli is definitely at the heart of UCI's corruptness.
 
Oct 15, 2012
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sniper said:
David Millar being politically correct again.:rolleyes:
("I'm not suggesting", "controversial"...)

Interesting on Zorzoli. IIRC, he was also involved in trying to get Contador off the hook in 2010, though I don't remember the details. Anyway, this guy Zorzoli is definitely at the heart of UCI's corruptness.
What you call "politically correct", I'd suspect is avoiding the libel courts.

always remember, Britain is the country where Liberace sued a paper that hinted he might be gay...and won. I don't think you can underestimate the omerta-preserving nature of libel law. Certainly partly explains (along with the peer-pressure 'Bassons' part of the Omerta) why a portion of clean riders, being constantly cheated, still kept their mouths shut for decades.
 
Oct 15, 2012
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Deagol said:
How can anything else be considered at this point ?
The UCI is simply a corporate entity - it is not beyond the bounds of possiblity, though extremely unlikely, that the UCI could be entirely emptied of the corrupt and start again, while remaining the same legal entity - as mitt might say, corporations are people, my friend.
 
Jan 29, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
martinvickers says Frenchies stopped doping because of the threat of jail, and he wants to see more of it:



Steve Houanard just got caught doping for EPO.
Jeanie Longo's husband is on the ropes for ordering a great whack of EPO.
Europecar are being investigated.
Micahel Delage was excluded from Nationals for elevated cortisol levels.

Is that enough examples that the jail threat in France is not preventing French people from doping?

Let me know - I can keep going. Or you can just check out dopeology.org for more yourself.
This seems to be a recent resurgence in French Cycling that coincides with this. As for Jeannie Longo, I would surmise that women's cycling never got much attention and they assumed they could fly under the radar. This was true until Joe Papp turned them in.

I think Vickers' assessment is correct. The threat, combined with the memory of the Festina affair played a major part in reducing doping in the French Pros for many years.

If all countries wound enact criminal legislation, and pursue cases, I think it would have an affect on the level of doping in the peloton as a whole.
 
I'll believe Hein and Pat's downfall when I see it. Yes, it's possible, but unlikely anytime soon.

What's most likely to happen is that the commission will either get bribed, white washed, or be formed of insiders; a Vrijman Report. Or everything will get pushed back to 2014-2016, with various delays in investigations, funding, etc. and Hein and Pat will retire comfortably. Pigs at the trough.

While I appreciate Fahey being on the right side of the Armstrong decision, I too believe Pound was a better leader. The only problem with Pound was that at times he'd open his mouth and say something caustic and uncalled for. But as far as knowing what was going on, and making the right decisions to fight doping, the man had a serious backbone. One of the few during very trying times.
 
May 26, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I'll believe Hein and Pat's downfall when I see it. Yes, it's possible, but unlikely anytime soon.

What's most likely to happen is that the commission will either get bribed, white washed, or be formed of insiders; a Vrijman Report. Or everything will get pushed back to 2014-2016, with various delays in investigations, funding, etc. and Hein and Pat will retire comfortably. Pigs at the trough.

While I appreciate Fahey being on the right side of the Armstrong decision, I too believe Pound was a better leader. The only problem with Pound was that at times he'd open his mouth and say something caustic and uncalled for. But as far as knowing what was going on, and making the right decisions to fight doping, the man had a serious backbone. One of the few during very trying times.
If the Swiss police do their job properly than it is only a matter of time that Verbruggen and McQuaid are charged and will either be sacked or resign.
 
stainlessguy1 said:
I believe , if we use a simple wheel as the base model and consider the rider the hub of the wheel , that would be a great starting point . The Rider is what it is all about , without the Rider , nothing else really matters.
To extend your analogy, the concept that the rider is at the center of the issue is exactly how the UCI enables doping. The rider is almost powerless. Because of oxygen vector doping, the clean riders have little chance. The culture just returns clean riders to their region and find personalities okay with doping. Floyd Landis being the perfect example. He didn't have a problem doping. He had a problem getting kicked out of the economy!

As the system works now, the UCI/IOC sports federations pick the cases to open. Which works out very well for them, doesn't it? What better way can you imagine to get the various actors in the Olympic athlete economy to bow to your wishes?

At mimimum, anything less than WADA being able to open cases allows doping among other cheating methods to flourish. This is the simplest way forward until WADA's leadership is replaced the way Anne Gripper was replaced at the UCI.

All this talk of the cycling-related media applying pressure is a form of greenwashing. Yes, they want the fundamental aspects of the cycling game to be sound, so sports results are believable. But that's different than an honest, transparent sport.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
To extend your analogy, the concept that the rider is at the center of the issue is exactly how the UCI enables doping.

As the system works now, the UCI/IOC sports federations pick the cases to open. Which works out very well for them, doesn't it? What better way can you imagine to get the various actors in the Olympic athlete economy to bow to your wishes?

At mimimum, anything less than WADA being able to open cases allows doping among other cheating methods to flourish. This is the simplest way forward until WADA's leadership is replaced the way Anne Gripper was replaced at the UCI.
Even then you are only approaching a best fit scenario, unless a body like WADA is comprised of benevolent scientists and well meaning advocates even they risk being swayed at a number of levels fom the powerful individual right through to a multi billion Pound Govt backed venture such as the Olympics.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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WADA confirms it will not appeal USADA reasoned decision in Lance Armstrong case
“Following the UCI Management Committee’s announcement last week, WADA now awaits with considerable interest the details of the independent inquiry that is proposed, including its composition and terms of reference.

“It is important that there now be genuine independence and a complete examination of the scenario, with a panel that has full powers of inquiry and access to all required evidence and information.

“Only with the necessary independence and terms of reference will the inquiry be able to properly address the systemic culture of doping that was allowed to develop in cycling during this time.

“WADA has had no communication from the UCI with regards to their upcoming inquiry, nor indeed the Armstrong reasoned decision, nor the UCI Management decisions. WADA will want to contribute to the inquiry if it is established and resourced beyond reproach.
eta: good article at velonation
 
May 3, 2010
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Jan 30, 2011
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Ferminal said:
Win-Win for them as it's a good PR move. Wonder how Pat and Henricus feel to finally be on the opposite end of lawsuit trolling.
Yes, I suspect Skins have more financial resources to run this through their lawyers than the UCI, Verdruggen or Phat have.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Ferminal said:
Win-Win for them as it's a good PR move. Wonder how Pat and Henricus feel to finally be on the opposite end of lawsuit trolling.
same lawyer as Kimmage too :D
 

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