UCI: Italian Giro top favourite will be Bio-pass exposed in hours

[Kazistuta]

Fuyu Li hardly qualifies, trollboy.

All those teams are stacked with riders who are putting on unbelievable performances. In RS's case, the riders are past the age when they should be on the downward slope of their careers, yet they keep getting better and better. It is ridiculous. The CSC/Saxo riders have been as suspicious as anyone for years. Riders like Devolder appear to only be able to race for two or three weeks out of the year.

Bro, I know your position in the doping debate, but how would a clean rider look in your eyes? Does he have to be a motorbike rider?

I mean, Devolder being suspicious when being competitive in few races, Contador/Valverde etc. being suspicious for winning/being competitive in most races, RS riders for being "too old to be THAT competitive" (not your exact words, granted) and Saxo Bank riders for being extra-terrestrial/peaking at major races (my assumption). What would it take to be considered clean or just clean enough to get the benefit of the doubt in your eyes? Not to race pro?

 

[icefire]

Most likely no. Flandis tried to a certain extent tried but failed. At least as how this would apply to the US legal system, there is (or should be) a mandatory arbitration provision in the agreement with US Cycling, USADA, and/or WADA. If I recall correctly, Flandis tried, after the ruling, to take it to court by claiming one of the arbitrators was an interested party (therfore not neutral) but failed.

However, this should be different in countries where doping is a crime (a least one worth prosecuting). There the case would be brought by a public court.

That's what I guessed. Late IOC president Mr Samaranch created CAS to prevent anyone (athletes, teams and federations) from taking sport cases to public justice. Sport governing bodies like being taken to public justice as much as they like government intervention in sports affairs.

 

[luckyboy]

Don't you think they will appeal for public justice courts as well? The sports justice courts are still obliged to maintain human rights, such as the right to privacy and the right to a fair hearing. If Pelli feels these are not adhered to in the sports justice courts he will make the case for the public courts, just as Valverde tried to do, if I am correct. In all probability especially the right to a fair trial, due to the type of test might be taken into question, same with the right to privacy

Where is privacy coming into this?

this is especially why I believe that if Pelizotti wins and prior to his win in the courts other cases are brought up on the same set of arguments as well, the UCI might well be in dire financial straits. Pelizotti alone could bleed them dry (well not totally dry, but you catch my drift), firstly with the legal fees and subsequently with any damages which he will be awarded.

If they can't ban people as a result of irregular values taken from the bio passport, cycling will be truly and totally dead. Unless they actually start total body Hb tests.

 

[Barrus]

Most likely no. Flandis tried to a certain extent tried but failed. At least as how this would apply to the US legal system, there is (or should be) a mandatory arbitration provision in the agreement with US Cycling, USADA, and/or WADA. If I recall correctly, Flandis tried, after the ruling, to take it to court by claiming one of the arbitrators was an interested party (therfore not neutral) but failed.

However, this should be different in countries where doping is a crime (a least one worth prosecuting). There the case would be brought by a public court.

Which would mean in Pelizotti's case it would go for public justice, doping is a criminal offence in Italy, right? And the bio-passport on its own will never, and you can quote me on this and have any bet with me that you want, ever hold up in a criminal court

@ lucky: privacy comes into play with the storing of the data of these riders

BTW I'm not saying that this will happen, is likely to happen, or even possible to happen, but I am just making the arguments and stating the proceedings that might be attempted by Peli

 

[Escarabajo]

...

After that it's no wonder Armstrong may have thought he needed to blood dope at the TdF to stay with the leaders.

Just that by then it was probably too late to start drawing blood and be preparing for the Tour at the same time.

I believe in unicorns also.

 

[Anonymous]

I am kind of pi$$ed about this. I like Pelizotti. I didn't for a second imagine he was clean, but then again, I am suspicious of most of them anyway. Either way, I liked the way he rode, and wish either all of them get busted, or only the ones I don't like...</irony>

 

[luckyboy]

@ lucky: privacy comes into play with the storing of the data of these riders

Ah ok, thought it might've been the testing/whereabouts thing.

It seems like cycling is in a no-win situation now.

 

[poupou]

It's a logical theory. It doesn't seem LA planned on blood doping at the tour given he already promised to put his blood profile online. His Giro numbers seemed clean. I can see how the performance from Pellizotti on the stage that LA tried to have a go at, and the general performance of people like Diluca who was juiced on CERA, would have made some small doping inevitable for Armstrong come July. He would have discovered that the game was still on at the GC level.

You disagree?

So Lance is not only a doper but he is a Nostradamus....

He had stored blood during the winter for TDF in case of he would have been beaten by doped riders on Giro.

You missed his Giro blood values that showed he received at least one blood transfusion, his hematocrit should have been much more lower after the first 10 days of race!

 

[Signor Corleone]

Signor Corleone

Re issoisso post 134:

Pietro Chiocchioli never won the Giro, I think you are getting confused
with Franco Caucchioli, who did win it in 1991.He was known as Il Coppino,
owing to his resemblance to the great Fausto Coppi.

 

[afpm90]

According to Andalucia-Cajasur, the anormal blood values of Jesus Rosendo are only from April 20th. Very low values of hematocrit and hemoglobin. The explanation is: the rider had hemorrhoids some days before.

 

[Barrus]

Ah ok, thought it might've been the testing/whereabouts thing.

It seems like cycling is in a no-win situation now.

Didn't Rasmussen try the privacy route against the whereabouts thing? I thought so and it was turned down, I believe.

 

[theyoungest]

Exactly, which is what I meant with 'It would not be a complete suprise'

There are guys getting caught which were nowhere near my own 'suspicious' list like Frei and Prado... so how would Gesink then be a suprise

And what were you when they were caught? That's right, surprised. And that's what I meant.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

He had stored blood during the winter for TDF in case of he would have been beaten by doped riders on Giro.

No, you believe he might have done this. You don't know this at all so have no right to assert it.

You missed his Giro blood values that showed he received at least one blood transfusion, his hematocrit should have been much more lower after the first 10 days of race!

Again you believe it might show this.

But it's not what experts who have looked at them have concluded.

 

[Hugh Januss]

It's a logical theory. It doesn't seem LA planned on blood doping at the tour given he already promised to put his blood profile online. His Giro numbers seemed clean. I can see how the performance from Pellizotti on the stage that LA tried to have a go at, and the general performance of people like Diluca who was juiced on CERA, would have made some small doping inevitable for Armstrong come July. He would have discovered that the game was still on at the GC level.

You disagree?

He just happened to have some extra blood bags lying around?

 

[Cobblestones]

Where is privacy coming into this?

If they can't ban people as a result of irregular values taken from the bio passport, cycling will be truly and totally dead. Unless they actually start total body Hb tests.

No, if they can't ban people as a result of irregular values taken from the bio passport, ... cycling will be precisely the way it has been, because up until yesterday you couldn't do that. Only as of today the UCI tries to go that route. Let's see what the courts decide. This is truly momentous, I'm excited. Hopefully it doesn't fizzle out.

Also about privacy, I assume that doesn't play a role since likely the riders have to sign some waiver stating that data can be stored blablabla, can be used in court blablabla and so on and so on. I can't imagine the testing agencies screw up the legalese on that.

 

[Barrus]

No, if they can't ban people as a result of irregular values taken from the bio passport, ... cycling will be precisely the way it has been, because up until yesterday you couldn't do that. Only as of today the UCI tries to go that route. Let's see what the courts decide. This is truly momentous, I'm excited. Hopefully it doesn't fizzle out.

Also about privacy, I assume that doesn't play a role since likely the riders have to sign some waiver stating that data can be stored blablabla, can be used in court blablabla and so on and so on. I can't imagine the testing agencies screw up the legalese on that.

the problem with these waivers is that they are forced upon the riders, they are obliged to sign them, manipulated even, for otherwise they cannot perform their job.

 

[issoisso]

Re issoisso post 134:

Pietro Chiocchioli never won the Giro, I think you are getting confused
with Franco Caucchioli, who did win it in 1991.He was known as Il Coppino,
owing to his resemblance to the great Fausto Coppi.

Uhm.

Sorry, you're the one getting confused

Pietro Caucchioli, currently suspended.
Franco Chiocchioli, 1991 Giro winner.

You switched their last names

 

[luckyboy]

No, if they can't ban people as a result of irregular values taken from the bio passport, ... cycling will be precisely the way it has been, because up until yesterday you couldn't do that. Only as of today the UCI tries to go that route. Let's see what the courts decide. This is truly momentous, I'm excited. Hopefully it doesn't fizzle out.

I'm not disputing that it will be the same as it was, but I can't really see any other way forward (in catching riders, that is). If this fails then the bio passport will have been a huge waste. Trying to stay optimistic though - I really hope that it doesn't fizzle out..

 

[El Oso]

Which would mean in Pelizotti's case it would go for public justice, doping is a criminal offence in Italy, right? And the bio-passport on its own will never, and you can quote me on this and have any bet with me that you want, ever hold up in a criminal court

@ lucky: privacy comes into play with the storing of the data of these riders

BTW I'm not saying that this will happen, is likely to happen, or even possible to happen, but I am just making the arguments and stating the proceedings that might be attempted by Peli

I would think they could get expert testimony to back it up, but I'll admit I don't know enough about Italian or EU courts to know whether it would stand or what the burden of proof would be like

 

[Cobblestones]

the problem with these waivers is that they are forced upon the riders, they are obliged to sign them, manipulated even, for otherwise they cannot perform their job.

Actually those types of waivers can be found in many professions. I doubt it is anything extraordinary.

 

[Mellow Velo]

The difference between the treatment of these riders and Valverde is stark. Strange blood values, of which there are no standards for what is considered proof of doping, result in riders being kept out of their goal race of the year. Yet Valverde, who clear evidence of doping exists, remains free to ride and win. If I were running a fed like CONI, I would be tempted to announce that no action will be taken until Valverde's federation takes action against Valverde.

This statement says it all.
The passport is the stick by which the UCI can actually chose who they beat, or don't beat.
Look at the press statements. It talks about values and experts, but it's all taking place in house. A system that is so open to corruption. Fits the UCI like a glove.

Valverde, where there is cast iron evidence and they sit on the fence, while he rides on and on.

Now, I'll let this thread get trolled into the inevitable Armstrong territory. One of the main reasons we are in this mess.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

He just happened to have some extra blood bags lying around?

Was he tested every day between the Giro and the Tour?

The allegation is that he may have used 1 unit of blood during the TdF. That's not a great amount. That's why it probably doesn't meet the UCI's likely 'beyond reasonable doubt' criteria for a bust.

 

[Signor Corleone]

Signor Corleone

Re issoisso 134

My sincere apologies, of course you are right. Whatever was I thinking?
And that's after just reading about Chioccioli in the latest edition of Procycling!

 

[El Oso]

Didn't Rasmussen try the privacy route against the whereabouts thing? I thought so and it was turned down, I believe.

Kashechkin tried it after his positive test for blood transfusion in August 2007 (his and Vino's bags must have been switched). The failed test was taken out of competition (he was in Turkey at the time). His argument was that the whereabout system was a violation of human rights law because of an invasion of privacy, but this claim was rejected.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/belgian-court-dismisses-kashechkin-suit

 

[BroDeal]

Was he tested every day between the Giro and the Tour?

The allegation is that he may have used 1 unit of blood during the TdF. That's not a great amount. That's why it probably doesn't meet the UCI's likely 'beyond reasonable doubt' criteria for a bust.

Keep it up, trollboy.