UCI Points system

[Samamba]

And WT teams wouldn't bother going to the same amount of non-WT races

That said, we have probably also seen too many WT-teams in some races, where they "stole" points, results and money away from smaller teams, because of the current system.

Really hard to find some balance between those 2. I spoke to a manager of a smaller Belgian team last season who is against the current system exactly because of this and I can't really disagree with him. Fot them in particular, those smaller Belgian races where their main goals of the season cause it was a way to show themselves on the TV. This has become incredibly hard now that those smaller races have double the amount of WT teams at the start than before. It's way better for the viewers and for the organizers who see better riders at their race, but the smaller PCT or Conti teams are struggling because of it. They have to go to other continents to be somewhat competitive and their sponsors obviously don't really care about those races.

 

[yaco]

But what if the best ProSeries team is still worse than the worst WorldTour team?

Right now there is good quality in the ProSeries teams but there were years where there weren't two WT worthy teams in the second division, or at least two teams better than the ones who were on the first division. Looking at the 2017 team CQ ranking the 18 WT teams make up the first 18 places and the 1st PRO team has a score which is 90% of the one achieved by the worst WT team. Doesn't make sense to say that this team deserves a guaranteed place in the WT instead of the team ranked above it.

And if we put a system where second division teams are not rewarded for investing in riders who can give them strong results and points in the biggest races, we'll end up with weaker 2nd tier teams resulting in bigger differentials in quality.

They are rewarded - They still count the wins as do the individual riders and the sponsors get the kudos, so nothing lost - A Pro team will probably get less points because WT races attract more points but it does not make the WT teams better forthe purposes of promotion and relegation.

 

[yaco]

And WT teams wouldn't bother going to the same amount of non-WT races and maybe even hire fewer riders.

That said, we have probably also seen too many WT-teams in some races, where they "stole" points, results and money away from smaller teams, because of the current system.

I doubt there will be many changes in race programs - Belgium, French, Spanish teams will still ride many of their local races because of sponsorship , while Jayco Alula will still ride the full Aussie summer - What we won't see is WT teams adding extra races at the lower level, costing pro teams and conti teams spots in races - For example, Jayco Alula added an extra 40 race days in 2022 in their quest to stave off relegation. In terms of WT teams riding lesser graded races often organisers have an arrangement with the UCI to get X amount of WT teams or Pro Teams - For example, the Herald Sun Tour in Australia has an arrangement in the UCI to have three WT Teams at the start line.

 

[Samamba]

Looks like Jumbo Visma is safe again!! Who would've thought.

 

[Lequack]

Jesus Alpecin is really lagging behind. Today was supposed to the points day for them with MVDP in Strade, but unfortunately not. Meanwhile Jumbo already up to top 5.

Rankings after Strade:

 

[Ricco']

Alpecin's horrific display is also shown by the amount of top-5's (not counting minor classifications) they have this year:

A grand total of 2, both of them in the prologue of the Tour Down Under. Even Astana has 9 so far and Intermarché is 2 away from reaching 30.

 

[Samamba]

After this weekend. Everyone is doing good or decent apart from Alpecin (atleast they have 2 WT wins now) and obviously Astana. Total also has been a disappointing after last years good season. They'll be having a lot of super easy French races coming up to, so maybe they can come closer to Israel and Lotto (even tho they are miles ahead already) for the guaranteed wildcards. Massive amount of points at stake the upcoming months (way more points in monuments this season).

 

[Devil's Elbow]

At this rate, Astana are going to be beyond saving just one year into the three-year cycle even with a major cash injection this winter. Cannot see the team still existing in 2026.

Everything else should remain up in the air until some time in the final year. Alpecin should be fine in the long run, Total's spot is slightly skewed because the cheap French races don't start until next week and will have a lot of budget freed up by Sagan's retirement for the remaining two seasons. Anyone outside of those two + the current top-18 being in the mix would be a surprise, maybe Uno-X but that is already a stretch.

Also, Novo Nordisk are not the worst ProTeam for the first time ever, on account of Corratec having accumulated a grand total of 12 points to sit in 111th (!!!). A shame they're eating up wildcard spots in RCS races.

 

[Samamba]

At this rate, Astana are going to be beyond saving just one year into the three-year cycle even with a major cash injection this winter. Cannot see the team still existing in 2026.

Everything else should remain up in the air until some time in the final year. Alpecin should be fine in the long run, Total's spot is slightly skewed because the cheap French races don't start until next week and will have a lot of budget freed up by Sagan's retirement for the remaining two seasons. Anyone outside of those two + the current top-18 being in the mix would be a surprise, maybe Uno-X but that is already a stretch.

Also, Novo Nordisk are not the worst ProTeam for the first time ever, on account of Corratec having accumulated a grand total of 12 points to sit in 111th (!!!). A shame they're eating up wildcard spots in RCS races.

Astana will double their points with the Asian championships alone tho. Not that it will be enough. They are doomed.

Isn't Specialized paying a lot of Sagans salary? Total didn't have the easy French races yet but they also have been performing way worse than last year. Half of their points are coming from beating African amateurs in Gabon.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Astana will double their points with the Asian championships alone tho. Not that it will be enough. They are doomed.

Isn't Specialized paying a lot of Sagans salary? Total didn't have the easy French races yet but they also have been performing way worse than last year. Half of their points are coming from beating African amateurs in Gabon.

When Sagan went to Bora, it was reported that Specialized were paying a third of his (reported) €6million salary. That share may have risen for the Total contract, but even if it's doubled, that would mean Total are paying him €2million annually, not to mention his entourage in Oss and Bodnar. So that should still be a multimillion figure being freed up, if they don't spunk it on a past-it classics rider for once that should help them a lot. The French sprinter carrousel is very much on for next year with Démare, Coquard and Bouhanni all out of contract, the likes of Cosnefroy, Sénéchal and Barguil also haven't renewed yet so there are a lot of obvious transfer targets if nothing else.

 

[yaco]

Interesting that Lotto Dstny is competing in the 2.1 Tour of Taiwan with a mixture of senior riders and development riders - Strange that they couldn't compete in the TDU because of travel costs, travelling time, time difference - Yet, the time difference between Taiwan and Australia is 2 hours, travel time is 12 hours against 18 hrs - In Australia they had 3 riders and the DS already in the country, while the race was at the beginning of the season but it was unachievable BUT they can travel to Taiwan in which they have to move 5 riders and a DS and it's at about the busiest time of the year.

 

[Escarabajo]

After this weekend. Everyone is doing good or decent apart from Alpecin (atleast they have 2 WT wins now) and obviously Astana. Total also has been a disappointing after last years good season. They'll be having a lot of super easy French races coming up to, so maybe they can come closer to Israel and Lotto (even tho they are miles ahead already) for the guaranteed wildcards. Massive amount of points at stake the upcoming months (way more points in monuments this season).

Astana, ouch!

 

[Samamba]

Interesting that Lotto Dstny is competing in the 2.1 Tour of Taiwan with a mixture of senior riders and development riders - Strange that they couldn't compete in the TDU because of travel costs, travelling time, time difference - Yet, the time difference between Taiwan and Australia is 2 hours, travel time is 12 hours against 18 hrs - In Australia they had 3 riders and the DS already in the country, while the race was at the beginning of the season but it was unachievable BUT they can travel to Taiwan in which they have to move 5 riders and a DS and it's at about the busiest time of the year.

Not sure why you're pretending like there isn't a big difference between being in super expensive Australia for 3 weeks straight with a full pro team, multiple DS's, multiple physio's & multiple mechanics and being in cheap Taiwan for a week with like 2 guys that matter a tiny bit.

You're saying it's the busiest time of the year now and January is "free", but then completely ignore the fact that Down Under is at the time when basically every team wants their riders at training camp. Ask any team manager and they will all say the same thing. They prefer to have their riders at training camp in January. There's a reason why so many WT teams don't even ride Cadel Evans and send pretty bad teams to Down Under. Look at Yates and Matthews. They both needed to be in good form in January already and they are struggling a bit.

Also Lotto never said it was unachievable for them to go to Australia, it simply wasn't worth it knowing they would just use the Australian team for Ewan. They wouldn't have gotten anything out of it apart from maybe a Ewan win (not saying they will get anything out of Taiwan, I don't really think going there was the smartest thing either) and would just not been able to ride as much as they did in Europe at end of January and in February.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Not sure why you're pretending like there isn't a big difference between being in super expensive Australia for 3 weeks straight with a full pro team, multiple DS's, multiple physio's & multiple mechanics and being in cheap Taiwan for a week with like 2 guys that matter a tiny bit.

You're saying it's the busiest time of the year now and January is "free", but then completely ignore the fact that Down Under is at the time when basically every team wants their riders at training camp. Ask any team manager and they will all say the same thing. They prefer to have their riders at training camp in January. There's a reason why so many WT teams don't even ride Cadel Evans and send pretty bad teams to Down Under.

Also Lotto never said it was unachievable for them to go to Australia, it simply wasn't worth it knowing they would just use the Australian team for Ewan. They wouldn't have gotten anything out of it apart from maybe a Ewan win (not saying they will get anything out of Taiwan, I don't really think going there was the smartest thing either) and would just not been able to ride as much as they did in Europe at end of January and in February.

And if they want to get results/points out of Sepúlveda, taking him to races such as this is exactly what they should do.

 

[Samamba]

And if they want to get results/points out of Sepúlveda, taking him to races such as this is exactly what they should do.

Yes but looking at Taiwans parcours this might be the wrong choice. The idea behind it (sending Sepulveda to smaller races for points) is good, but Taiwans gets played on boni seconds I think. And he isn't explosive so I don't think Lotto will get a lot of points of it and that would make the whole trip a bit dumb.

 

[yaco]

Not sure why you're pretending like there isn't a big difference between being in super expensive Australia for 3 weeks straight with a full pro team, multiple DS's, multiple physio's & multiple mechanics and being in cheap Taiwan for a week with like 2 guys that matter a tiny bit.

You're saying it's the busiest time of the year now and January is "free", but then completely ignore the fact that Down Under is at the time when basically every team wants their riders at training camp. Ask any team manager and they will all say the same thing. They prefer to have their riders at training camp in January. There's a reason why so many WT teams don't even ride Cadel Evans and send pretty bad teams to Down Under.

Also Lotto never said it was unachievable for them to go to Australia, it simply wasn't worth it knowing they would just use the Australian team for Ewan. They wouldn't have gotten anything out of it apart from maybe a Ewan win (not saying they will get anything out of Taiwan, I don't really think going there was the smartest thing either) and would just not been able to ride as much as they did in Europe at end of January and in February.

To say it is for logistical reasons is hogwash - It's simply for UCI points - I suppose Lotto is missing the Giro for logistical reasons ! Enough said.

 

[yaco]

Yes but looking at Taiwans parcours this might be the wrong choice. The idea behind it (sending Sepulveda to smaller races for points) is good, but Taiwans gets played on boni seconds I think. And he isn't explosive so I don't think Lotto will get a lot of points of it and that would make the whole trip a bit dumb.

There must be a reason - Maybe they are prepping Sepulveda for the Tour of Turkey - Checking their schedule, Lotto are not riding the Tour of Turkey - There must be a reason to visit Taiwan. Unless its testing the water for Chinese races like China Tour 1 and 2 or Tour of Hainan Island, although I don't think these are on the calendar in 2023. Actually, Lotto's calendar is jam packed with races, so I hope they don't run out of riders.

 

[Samamba]

To say it is for logistical reasons is hogwash - It's simply for UCI points - I suppose Lotto is missing the Giro for logistical reasons ! Enough said.

I have no idea what you're even trying to say. Ofcourse them going to Taiwan is for UCI points, no one has said otherwise. The reason for not going to Australia definitely has something to do with financials, it's just simple ROI theory. Too much money for what they get in return (recourses that's better spent somewhere else). And then there is the argument that every team has, not wanting to waste riders going to Australia for 3 weeks. Just look at Matthews and Yates and how they're struggling to find top form (their own words). Coquard said the same thing. It's possible to be in good form in Australia and in the classics, but it's not easy.

There must be a reason - Maybe they are prepping Sepulveda for the Tour of Turkey - Checking their schedule, Lotto are not riding the Tour of Turkey - There must be a reason to visit Taiwan. Unless its testing the water for Chinese races like China Tour 1 and 2 or Tour of Hainan Island, although I don't think these are on the calendar in 2023. Actually, Lotto's calendar is jam packed with races, so I hope they don't run out of riders.

You literally name the reason yourself? Points, they probably just thought it would be somewhat easy to get points there. But the parcours probably isn't hard enough. Wouldn't be surprised if they got some start money too.

And yes ofcourse Lotto is riding a lot of races. They're not going to make the same mistake again. They don't have the team to take big points in big races (could change in the future but not now), so they have to ride a lot of smaller races. They have a whole DEVO team to use now so that shouldn't be a problem like last year. Huge advantage compared to some of the French teams who are even riding more races, but without Devo riders (for example Arkea and Cofidis). There's probably going to be a few riders that are going to have way to many racedays at the end of the year and I'm not saying it's necessarily the best for their devolopment (they're not going to do that to their biggest talents), but they simply don't have another choice. UCI points is their main goal, it's life or death. They can't afford to not be in the top 2 PCT teams. Lucikly Total has been *** this season so far, but it can go fast with the amount of points for grabs the upcoming weeks.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Yes but looking at Taiwans parcours this might be the wrong choice. The idea behind it (sending Sepulveda to smaller races for points) is good, but Taiwans gets played on boni seconds I think. And he isn't explosive so I don't think Lotto will get a lot of points of it and that would make the whole trip a bit dumb.

Yeah, it isn't the best race for him, but they might be able to play some tactical games if Paasschens has the legs.

 

[Samamba]

Yeah, it isn't the best race for him, but they might be able to play some tactical games if Paasschens has the legs.

I guess it's worth the gamble sending him there as there aren't any races for him anyways right now. He would be a domestique in Catalunya otherwise, would be useless knowing Lotto won't be riding for a good GC there anyways (or Van Eetvelt has to surprise). He's riding Hungary (.Pro now but doubt that it has more climbers at the start than normal) and Sibiu later this year so he should be getting some points there I guess.

 

[yaco]

I guess it's worth the gamble sending him there as there aren't any races for him anyways right now. He would be a domestique in Catalunya otherwise, would be useless knowing Lotto won't be riding for a good GC there anyways (or Van Eetvelt has to surprise). He's riding Hungary (.Pro now but doubt that it has more climbers at the start than normal) and Sibiu later this year so he should be getting some points there I guess.

I find it strange that Lotto is not riding the Tour of Turkey where there are sprint opportunities for Ewan and GC possibilities for Sepulveda, instead of Romandie - I understand Romandie has got weaker over the last few years but It will be tougher to get results.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I find it strange that Lotto is not riding the Tour of Turkey where there are sprint opportunities for Ewan and GC possibilities for Sepulveda, instead of Romandie - I understand Romandie has got weaker over the last few years but It will be tougher to get results.

The full list of teams for ToT has not been announced yet, so they might still be riding it.

 

[Samamba]

I find it strange that Lotto is not riding the Tour of Turkey where there are sprint opportunities for Ewan and GC possibilities for Sepulveda, instead of Romandie - I understand Romandie has got weaker over the last few years but It will be tougher to get results.

I'm not 100% sure they're not riding Turkey as their startlist isn't final, but if they don't it probably has good reasons. Like the fact that it overlaps with Liège, or the fact that it has been demoted to .1 for safety reason (I don't think they're happy with how last year went). Romandie is a goal for Van Eetvelt, he's going to try for GC in the weaker WT stage races (Poland too).

 

[Netserk]

Astana, ouch!

It's a mix of money/sponsor/staff problems and bad luck. They were great in 2019 and 2020, and solid in 2021. After the 2021 season they lost Vlasov, Fuglsang, the Izagirre brothers, Aranburu, Fraile, Sánchez (basically the Spanish division), Sobrero, and Houle. In return they had enough money for López and Nibali to come back to the team (for various reasons only one season though) and Moscon. The latter has been ill or injured pretty much ever since then. Lutsenko is the only star rider who has stayed with them, and he was out injured in the spring last year.

 

[yaco]

It's not all doom or gloom for Astana - You sign one star in 2023 or have a rider jump out of the ground and you can quickly build up UCI points.