UCI questioning a small number of riders on blood values

[IntheMidwest]

Perfect Example:

Transfusion equipment (IV's) found in Astana's trash during the tour;

Wada Code Regarding Transfusions:

M2. CHEMICAL AND PHYSICAL MANIPULATION
1. Tampering, or attempting to tamper, in order to alter the integrity and
validity of Samples collected during Doping Controls is prohibited. These
include but are not limited to catheterisation, urine substitution and/or
adulteration (e.g. proteases).
2. Intravenous infusions are prohibited except for those legitimately received inthe course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations.

Source: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...hibited-list/WADA_Prohibited_List_2010_EN.pdf

This code was in effect for 2009 albeit the 2010 code. It seems a certain someone was on that team in 2009 during the tour de france. If 99 taught us anything, TUE's are particularly easy to backdate, just in case..... So, as the old saying goes, "Move along, nothing to see here".

Sad.

 

[IntheMidwest]

Possible = Less than 25% chance of happening.

The other reason for drops in Retics is just a shift from EPO use to blood transfusion use

When new blood (transfusion) is introduced into the body, it no longer needs to produce new blood cells as a result of the destruction of the RBC's due to the stresses of exercise. Therefore reticulyte production is halted or stopped temporarily. So Rec's are down; crit is up. (unless rec rich blood is transfused).

With EPO, the drug replaces the naturally occuring EPO hormone produced by the kidneys. EPO in the blood creates a hormonal response in the bone marrow to produce new reticulytes, or immature red blood cells. So Rec's are up' crit is up with EPO.

None of this crap happens by hanging out in Aspen for month or so before a race. Riders that can consistently keep their blood values constant with small fluxuations here and there are generally safe, which IHO is legalized doping and is one of the biggest reasons I think the passport idea came straight out of a PR Firm. If I see LA and Wiggo hanging with Contador and Schlecklet in the mountains this year in the tour, that's all the proof I need.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good posts InTheMidwest. And thanks for adding the WADA link/info, always helps. Great avatar too, by the way.

 

[IntheMidwest]

Good posts InTheMidwest. And thanks for adding the WADA link/info, always helps. Great avatar too, by the way.

Thanks and Thanks again, Alpe. GL was one of (if not) the last true natural talents that the US has contributed to our cycling world, IMHO. That all became very blurred around the time he was forced to retire and unfortunately the man literally gets no respect in cycling as of present day - he's currently being painted as a lunatic as we all know. It's nice to get on here and rant every now and then!

And in case anyone is wondering, I'm not the real GL, just another guy with a passion for this lifestyle and sport, and utterly sick of the BS, corrupt crap that's ruining cycling and blatantly happening right in front of our very eyes seemingly on a daily basis. Ok, rant over.

 

[BroDeal]

If the UCI is looking for high retics, can we assume that they are looking for EPO use, which will be used by lower level riders who cannot afford to freeze their RBCs months in advance, instead of higher level riders, who if they have a brain would only be using blood transfusions? Under this plan Armstong's funky low retics during the TdF would not raise an eyebrow.

After a blood donation the retics should climb but maybe (???) not as much as with EPO use, but that would be during training when testing frequency is very low.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Ok, rant over.

Not really ranting at all. I think you'll find around here GL is viewed with a lot of respect and admiration for the most part. Plus, there are a growing number of people in the cycling world who are starting to see the light and view Greg for being the great champion he was, and respect him for standing up for what's right in the face of tremendous adversity.

 

[IntheMidwest]

If the UCI is looking for high retics, can we assume that they are looking for EPO use, which will be used by lower level riders who cannot afford to freeze their RBCs months in advance, instead of higher level riders, who if they have a brain would only be using blood transfusions? Under this plan Armstong's funky low retics during the TdF would not raise an eyebrow.

After a blood donation the retics should climb but maybe (???) not as much as with EPO use, but that would be during training when testing frequency is very low.

Exactly Bro, and exactly the reason all the higher level pro's have exclusive doctors that they employ just for this very reason. However, blood transfusions can be detected (autologous as well), but the UCI will never go for it.

I've always wondered why the UCI isn't interested in doing a crit test 15 minutes before any major race or stage? Probably because they don't want to know the results!

[After a 'donation', its common that pro's microdose epo to get recs up, or donate after a prep race, so that they can blame the race on low recs]

 

[blackcat]

how many doctors are in Boulder outsourcing this service. I can think of a number who will be using transfusion services in Boulder.

 

[BroDeal]

Exactly Bro, and exactly the reason all the higher level pro's have exclusive doctors that they employ just for this very reason. However, blood transfusions can be detected (autologous as well), but the UCI will never go for it.

I've always wondered why the UCI isn't interested in doing a crit test 15 minutes before any major race or stage? Probably because they don't want to know the results!

[After a 'donation', its common that pro's microdose epo to get recs up, or donate after a prep race, so that they can blame the race on low recs]

+1 Good post, Huge Ship.

 

[Joey_J]

Amateur arm-chair hematologists

I wonder who Anne Gripper was referring to when she said “Amateur arm-chair hematologists?” BroDeal, Blackcat, Escarabajo, RR, Dr M., or all of the above?
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I wonder who Anne Gripper was referring to when she said “Amateur arm-chair hematologists?” BroDeal, Blackcat, Escarabajo, RR, Dr M., or all of the above?
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

Please point out a post of mine where I have been an 'armchair hematologist'.

Also - why Anne may have had a point, neither Jakob Mørkebjerg who questioned Armstrongs Tour 2009 blood profile, or. Michael Ashenden are 'armchair hematologists'.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I wonder who Anne Gripper was referring to when she said “Amateur arm-chair hematologists?” BroDeal, Blackcat, Escarabajo, RR, Dr M., or all of the above?
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

Maybe it was you??

RR said..
1985 was when the human erythropoietin gene was isolated. It was not approved by the FDA until July 1989....but don't let the facts get in the way of your attempt to slime.

It was in 1984 that Dr Lin (Amgen) isolated the EPO gene. 1985-1986 were spent on clinical trials and on 1/87, the New England Journal of Medicine, pronounced EPO as a raving success. EPO hit pro cycling in 1987. It was FDA approved in 89. The Dutch team PDM, was using EPO from 1987>. Just look at the “on hit wonders” on PDM in 87-90. Any rider on PDM from 87-89 was ahead of the doping curve, not behind it

 

[Joey_J]

@ Dr M

In a previous post, I was quoting reliable documentation (FDA, ASH), a family member (PhD Biology) and my personal experience, not analyzing blood values. I’m not a hematologist and don’t pretend to be.

With regard to Jakob Mørkebjerg’s analysis, please show me the data set that he compared LA’s samples to. Does he have a “clean” 50 rider sample from last years Tour to compare LA’s profile to? Please provide that data set, I’d like to see it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In a previous post, I was quoting reliable documentation (FDA, ASH), a family member (PhD Biology) and my personal experience, not analyzing blood values. I’m not a hematologist and don’t pretend to be.

With regard to Jakob Mørkebjerg’s analysis, please show me the data set that he compared LA’s samples to. Does he have a “clean” 50 rider sample from last years Tour to compare LA’s profile to? Please provide that data set, I’d like to see it.

So- you could not find a post of mine, thank you.

And just to clarify - you said "I’m not a hematologist and don’t pretend to be" and then went on to say "Please provide that data set, I’d like to see it"

So maybe in this post you could remove my name and replace it with yours.

I wonder who Anne Gripper was referring to when she said “Amateur arm-chair hematologists?” BroDeal, Blackcat, Escarabajo, RR, Dr M., or all of the above?
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

 

[Joey_J]

@ Dr M

"Your earlier post is a theory.

You are speculating - I am not.

Lance lost 21 minutes in his first stage in the Alp's - then lost 28 minutes on the very next. EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993 - as Hampstens 8th place shows. "


"EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993"
-FYI, by definition that’s speculation.

Fact, it was rampant in 1990.
From Lemond to Breukink to Chiapucchi to Dhanens to Bugno to Delgado to Rooks to GJT and all the rest.

If my comments on historical EPO use makes me an "A A-C H", than it does you as well.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"Your earlier post is a theory.

You are speculating - I am not.

Lance lost 21 minutes in his first stage in the Alp's - then lost 28 minutes on the very next. EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993 - as Hampstens 8th place shows. "


"EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993"
-FYI, by definition that’s speculation.

Fact, it was rampant in 1990.
From Lemond to Breukink to Chiapucchi to Dhanens to Bugno to Delgado to Rooks to GJT and all the rest.

If my comments on historical EPO use makes me an "A A-C H", than it does you as well.

Firstly - I wrote the top part - not the bottom.

I would question some of the riders on your list - but regardless 8 riders out of almost 200 is not rampant.

 

[Joey_J]

@ Dr M

just to chime in on that earlier post..

Ok, let’s play along with your ignorant anecdotal evidence with regard to LeMond/Hampsten.
91’ GL 7th AH 8th same time..
92’ AH 4th GL dnf
93’ AH 8th GL dnf

If both were clean in 91’, how come so close to MI?
If both were clean in 92’, why is AH 4th and GL dnf? GL should be above AH at least. And both should be as close to MI as in 91' AH was and GL was not.
Same for 93'
Was AH clean? Was GL clean or just fat?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

just to chime in on that earlier post..

Ok, let’s play along with your ignorant anecdotal evidence with regard to LeMond/Hampsten.
91’ GL 7th AH 8th same time..
92’ AH 4th GL dnf
93’ AH 8th GL dnf

If both were clean in 91’, how come so close to MI?
If both were clean in 92’, why is AH 4th and GL dnf? GL should be above AH at least. And both should be as close to MI as in 91' AH was and GL was not.
Same for 93'
Was AH clean? Was GL clean or just fat?

Well you could easily destroy my "ignorant anecdotal evidence" with some of your "facts"....

...
Fact, it was rampant in 1990.
From Lemond to Breukink to Chiapucchi to Dhanens to Bugno to Delgado to Rooks to GJT and all the rest. ...
.

.... however you could end up being accused of 'speculating'. Is your armchair comfortable?

I think you may have been correct in a part of your earlier post about Anne Gripper

....
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

 

[Race Radio]

"Your earlier post is a theory.

You are speculating - I am not.

Lance lost 21 minutes in his first stage in the Alp's - then lost 28 minutes on the very next. EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993 - as Hampstens 8th place shows. "


"EPO abuse was not rampant in 1993"
-FYI, by definition that’s speculation.

Fact, it was rampant in 1990.
From Lemond to Breukink to Chiapucchi to Dhanens to Bugno to Delgado to Rooks to GJT and all the rest.

If my comments on historical EPO use makes me an "A A-C H", than it does you as well.

Rooks said he only heard rumors of EPO did not start using it until 1991. PDM started experimenting, with not the best results, in 1990. inn 1991 they rolled out an EPO program and had to withdraw entire team form the Tour. but don't let the facts get in the way of your babble

 

[Race Radio]

In a previous post, I was quoting reliable documentation (FDA, ASH), a family member (PhD Biology) and my personal experience, not analyzing blood values. I’m not a hematologist and don’t pretend to be.

With regard to Jakob Mørkebjerg’s analysis, please show me the data set that he compared LA’s samples to. Does he have a “clean” 50 rider sample from last years Tour to compare LA’s profile to? Please provide that data set, I’d like to see it.

Blood values have been studied by teams for decades. Mørkebjerg's study done during the 2007 Tour only confirmed what was already known, Hct levels decrease during the last week of a GT.

In this case I will believe Mørkebjerg, Ashenden, Belhage and not armchair hematologist like yourself.

 

[RTMcFadden]

In this case I will believe Mørkebjerg, Ashenden, Belhage and not armchair hematologist like yourself.

Technically, as near as I can tell, Mørkebjerg may be the only hematologist in the bunch. Alhtough, htere is very little I can actually locate on him. Ashenden is an applied exercise physiologist, who specialty is in altitude training. Bo Belhage is an Anesthesiologist

 

[Race Radio]

Technically, as near as I can tell, Mørkebjerg may be the only hematologist in the bunch. Alhtough, htere is very little I can actually locate on him. Ashenden is an applied exercise physiologist, who specialty is in altitude training. Bo Belhage is an Anesthesiologist

Mørkeberg has written 10 peer-reviewed papers on blood doping in the past three years, and has completed a Master’s thesis entitled "Autologous Blood Doping". He received his PhD for his dissertation "Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples".

Dr. Belhage has written 53 publications; of these, 41 are peer-reviewed, two peer-reviewed in press (pending) and 10 book chapters. He is a Doctor of Medical Science, an Associated Research Professor, and was also involved in the running of the CSC and Astana anti-doping programmes. He has been involved in science for 21 years.

Dr. Ashenden worked as an exercise physiologist at the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) his post-graduate research specialised in the field of athlete’s haematology. He troubleshoot the development of a blood test to detect the use of EPO. Dr Ashenden is a member of the World Anti Doping Agency’s Athlete’s Passport expert committee, and the (UCI) Blood Passport committee.

Hardly armchair hematologist.

 

[IntheMidwest]

Mørkeberg has written 10 peer-reviewed papers on blood doping in the past three years, and has completed a Master’s thesis entitled "Autologous Blood Doping". He received his PhD for his dissertation "Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples".

Dr. Belhage has written 53 publications; of these, 41 are peer-reviewed, two peer-reviewed in press (pending) and 10 book chapters. He is a Doctor of Medical Science, an Associated Research Professor, and was also involved in the running of the CSC and Astana anti-doping programmes. He has been involved in science for 21 years.

Dr. Ashenden worked as an exercise physiologist at the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) his post-graduate research specialised in the field of athlete’s haematology. He troubleshoot the development of a blood test to detect the use of EPO. Dr Ashenden is a member of the World Anti Doping Agency’s Athlete’s Passport expert committee, and the (UCI) Blood Passport committee.

Hardly armchair hematologist.

Yep, If I recall correctly, first thing LA's camp tried to do when Mørkeberg questioned LA's blood values was discredit the guy with the anology: "What to you call the lowest ranking graduate of medical school? A Doctor" or something along those lines. I think they were playing on the notion that people were generally going to be unaware of the informative data the RR has posted here. Typical LA. Great post RR.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

just to chime in on that earlier post... Ok, let’s play along with your ignorant anecdotal evidence with regard to LeMond/Hampsten...

What exactly are you saying? That GL and AH were doped? Or that all the riders that beat them were clean?

Or are you implying that unless you are a PhD certified hematologist, you can't comment on the issue, even on an internet message board, regardless of the depth of logic one concludes with.

If you have something to say, come out and say it. Don't beat around the bush with unrelated comparisons in an effort to discredit information posted by others.

 

[peloton]

Mørkeberg has written 10 peer-reviewed papers on blood doping in the past three years, and has completed a Master’s thesis entitled "Autologous Blood Doping". He received his PhD for his dissertation "Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples".

Dr. Belhage has written 53 publications; of these, 41 are peer-reviewed, two peer-reviewed in press (pending) and 10 book chapters. He is a Doctor of Medical Science, an Associated Research Professor, and was also involved in the running of the CSC and Astana anti-doping programmes. He has been involved in science for 21 years.

Dr. Ashenden worked as an exercise physiologist at the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) his post-graduate research specialised in the field of athlete’s haematology. He troubleshoot the development of a blood test to detect the use of EPO. Dr Ashenden is a member of the World Anti Doping Agency’s Athlete’s Passport expert committee, and the (UCI) Blood Passport committee.

Hardly armchair hematologist.

Yep, If I recall correctly, first thing LA's camp tried to do when Mørkeberg questioned LA's blood values was discredit the guy with the anology: "What to you call the lowest ranking graduate of medical school? A Doctor" or something along those lines. I think they were playing on the notion that people were generally going to be unaware of the informative data the RR has posted here. Typical LA. Great post RR.

Great post RR.

That's exactly what the LA camp did IntheMidwest, until they pulled the numbers down.....