Urine Trouble

[BotanyBay]

But has any of this been done in the US? Probably not.

Also, for trafficking, it's has to be incredibly difficult to make a case if you don't catch them in the act. Six+ years down the line will be nearly impossible.

If you handle the logistics on your phone or computer from here, of course you're doing it in the USA. I realize that the common vision that people have of drug trafficking involves underground tunnels and giant loads of marijuana, but truthfully, it's all about the logistics and planning. And that can be proved.

A phone call between Armstrong and Ferarri (if he's ordering EPO) is part of that process. Get a teammate to testify about sitting-in on the conversation and find phone records, and you've got one count right there.

And if you mix eyewitness testimony with electronic records (such as emails and phone calls), of course that is also possible. The phone companies and ISPs keep EVERYTHING.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Lances' 99 samples ave already been proven to have gone through a corrupt chain of custody. No doubt something went fishy in the French labs, who knows, a bit of hand lotion here, a bit of perfume there, some extraneous DNA there, a bit of EPO there. To many hands in the lab and to much excitement = Bam Bam contamination. Sloppy excitement in the labs, it will be proven my Champion Lance won 99 on guts, superior training, leg speed, and lazer-like focus.(Need we not mention the sacrifices of his team and Johanns' superior tactics, to boot.)

Yeah, yeah, dream on flicky.......

 

[Polish]

The US government is investigating now because Landis...

The Sixth Amendment only applies after indictment. ...

Once indicted, the trial must commence within 70 days unless...

The ACLU handles only one type of case--1st Amendment Freedom of Expression matters....

Lastly, yes the US Government absolutely has the right to test Lance's pee

Thanks for the info.

Knew the part about Floyd, but the other stuff thanks.

 

[Polish]

Who supplied and paid for the EPO in the samples.......

Monsieur Bordry?

 

[bartender]

Might finally separate rumors (1999 samples were dirty) from fact (not officially
positive). My guess will be the 1999 samples will be "inconclusive". Lance will NOT be exonerated, Novitzky, will not quite have enough to prosecute, and life will go on much as it has.

 

[Mambo95]

That comes back to my question of how involved Novitzky got into it with the Euro cops and Interpol.

I'm not sure how it works with a US prosecutor going after a US citizen for deeds done outside of the country. All I can think of is that Interpol and some other Euro police are now involved (apparently the accused were moving illegal goods in/out of their countries), therefor further proceedings may involve those European countries/cops.

If Novisky is spending large amounts of money just trying to prosecute an American for using relatively small amounts of drugs moved around Europe for use by Europeans, then he'd better start looking for a new job.

I also doubt that European cops will be bothered. They've all had their budget slashed, so pursuing a US national, who they'll have trouble extraditing, for a 6+ year old drugs trafficking charge that they'll have trouble proving isn't on the agenda.

They're only going to go after a foreigner if it's either a) something heavy like murder, b) it's an on going problem and/or on their own door step or c) terrorist related.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't that big a deal.

 

[hfer07]

That comes back to my question of how involved Novitzky got into it with the Euro cops and Interpol.

I'm not sure how it works with a US prosecutor going after a US citizen for deeds done outside of the country.

What matters here is that Mr LA used US Tax payer dollars to buy, traffic & use PED's-regardless if the deed was committed overseas which by itself is fraud.

 

[MarkvW]

speculation

I think this question needs another thread, just to keep it on-track.

OK, so let's say we've got urine samples. They're Lance's and they're positive for EPO. Let's suppose we're in a jury room and everyone is in absolute agreement on this. A hypothetical.

What's the charge we're debating?

• It can't be perjury from the SCA case, because that would not be the fed's jurisdiction (Texas would have to go after him for that).

• It can't be lying to a grand jury, because Lance has not testified in front of the grand jury. I assume that if he's been questioned by federal agents, Herman has told him not to answer any such questions.

So what are we deliberating?

My guess is that we're looking at a trafficking charge. And the positive samples are supporting evidence. And they wouldn't be asking for this evidence unless they've got plenty of OTHER EVIDENCE linking Lance to a trafficking operation.

Thoughts? And PR firm employees / fanboys, please don't derail this by disputing the validity of the samples. I want to know WHY we're discussing samples in this theoretical jury room.

Most likely scenario is that they're going hard after Lance's dealer and they are setting up Lance as the star witness against the dealer. Looks like they're getting ready to invite Lance to talk to the GJ. They want Lance to know that they are holding his dopey pee while Lance is answering doping questions under oath. If Lance takes the Fifth, my bet is he gets immunity.

But since BB wants more Lance-centric responses, here goes:

Lance is way past trouble for 1999 dope possession; the statute of limitations saves him from that, and he's not going to be charged with doping or dealing in France in US Federal Court.

If the charge is against Lance, it's only going to be a doping charge if Lance was a big-time international distributor. That's very unlikely.

What, besides doping charges, is doping relevant to? My best guess is fraud on the USPS. I don't know the statute of limitations on that, but that's the most logical choice. Perjury isn't likely, gicen the statements I know about.

The investigation must be bearing fruit, because it is still being pursued aggressively. All that for a piddling fraud prosecution? Maybe, but I'm betting that they're going after Lance's dope dealer.

 

[Mambo95]

If you handle the logistics on your phone or computer from here, of course you're doing it in the USA. I realize that the common vision that people have of drug trafficking involves underground tunnels and giant loads of marijuana, but truthfully, it's all about the logistics and planning. And that can be proved.

A phone call between Armstrong and Ferarri (if he's ordering EPO) is part of that process. Get a teammate to testify about sitting-in on the conversation and find phone records, and you've got one count right there.

And if you mix eyewitness testimony with electronic records (such as emails and phone calls), of course that is also possible. The phone companies and ISPs keep EVERYTHING.

As I've just said, if Novisky is basing an expensive investigation on speculative fishing like that, on a weak case for small time trafficking charge that took place in Europe, then he's going to get fired.

There's no way trafficking will be his angle.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

If Novisky is spending large amounts of money just trying to prosecute an American for using relatively small amounts of drugs moved around Europe for use by Europeans, then he'd better start looking for a new job.

I also doubt that European cops will be bothered. They've all had their budget slashed, so pursuing a US national, who they'll have trouble extraditing, for a 6+ year old drugs trafficking charge that they'll have trouble proving isn't on the agenda.

They're only going to go after a foreigner if it's either a) something heavy like murder, b) it's an on going problem and/or on their own door step or c) terrorist related.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't that big a deal.

You're absolutely right. That's why no doping rings have been brought down in the last few weeks.

That was weak, buddy...

 

[Mambo95]

What matters here is that Mr LA used US Tax payer dollars to buy, traffic & use PED's-regardless if the deed was committed overseas which by itself is fraud.

He didn't though. US Postal paid the team, the team paid LA and then LA bought the drugs. That's two degrees of separation.

When you get paid by your employer, they can't tell you what to do with it.

(I'm not trying to defend LA here, but if Novisky's case is like the cases posters on here are presenting, then he has nothing to worry about).

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Having EPO in your own body is not evidence of trafficking EPO imo.

Having "plastics' in your blood is no big deal.
Not a FDA/Federal offense to transfuse your own blood on French Soil is it?
Was legal to hydrate out of plastic bags 99-05.

What if Lance swears under oath and the samples show otherwise.
What is "truer" - Lances word or some old potentially tampered samples?

I think the amount of plastic would be different also maybe the type.

"Potentially". Deepends on who you talk too.

 

[Mambo95]

You're absolutely right. That's why no doping rings have been brought down in the last few weeks.

That was weak, buddy...

Yes, Spanish cops have brought down Spanish current doping rings on their own door step. Were any foreign nationals, living abroad involved? Did the crimes take place several years ago? If not then it's a completely different scenario.

Really, learn to read.

 

[hfer07]

Most likely scenario is that they're going hard after Lance's dealer and they are setting up Lance as the star witness against the dealer. Looks like they're getting ready to invite Lance to talk to the GJ. They want Lance to know that they are holding his dopey pee while Lance is answering doping questions under oath. If Lance takes the Fifth, my bet is he gets immunity.

Which brings the Question of Johann Bruyneel Is LA going to crucify him to get a deal?-If so-will JB bite back? and one cannot contradict the other since both have been together since the very 1st TDF victory
BTW the rest of your commentary is unlikely to happen-there is too much investment in information,time consuming, witnesses & preparation by FEDs to let this case slip due to the statue of limitation-legally there are ways to overturn it.

 

[BotanyBay]

I'm not sure how it works with a US prosecutor going after a US citizen for deeds done outside of the country.

There could be some "shared multinational lawbreaking" going on. He (theoretically) makes phone calls from Texas to coordinate delivery of some Romanian-manufactured EPO to Italy and "someone" then moves it to Spain to distribute to the "connected" riders in his doping cell. And he wires funds that came from USPS sponsorship dollars to pay for it.

Remember, US prosecutors might just be working on THEIR end of things.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

He didn't though. US Postal paid the team, the team paid LA and then LA bought the drugs. That's two degrees of separation.

When you get paid by your employer, they can't tell you what to do with it.

(I'm not trying to defend LA here, but if Novisky's case is like the cases posters on here are presenting, then he has nothing to worry about).

That's a pretty big assumption. Did LA buy them on his own? What about the Trek product being dumped to generate cash that is yet to be accounted for? Did LA get all that money?

It's ridiculous to assume that LA was hitting Italian street corners looking for a team-wide fix (to draw your point out, I admit).

I believe you really are trying to defend LA, regardless of what you profess.

 

[BotanyBay]

As I've just said, if Novisky is basing an expensive investigation on speculative fishing like that, on a weak case for small time trafficking charge that took place in Europe, then he's going to get fired.

There's no way trafficking will be his angle.

One, the "expensive investigation" might result in multiple cases. Some domestic, some international.

 

[Kodiak]

Two words for ya:



Extraterritorial jurisdiction

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Yes, Spanish cops have brought down Spanish current doping rings on their own door step. Were any foreign nationals, living abroad involved? Did the crimes take place several years ago? If not then it's a completely different scenario.

Really, learn to read.

I have no idea, I'm working from a point of conjecture here - which I think I actually explicated a few posts ago.

Do you KNOW? Although this may have all come from XT, there is nothing saying that it entirely did. From what I read, there was more than one point of contact that was used to bust this ring open.

And the German one, as well.

This is a big deal. Probably more than the Americans realize. There will be implications that go far beyond the American borders.

 

[BotanyBay]

Most likely scenario is that they're going hard after Lance's dealer and they are setting up Lance as the star witness against the dealer. Looks like they're getting ready to invite Lance to talk to the GJ. They want Lance to know that they are holding his dopey pee while Lance is answering doping questions under oath. If Lance takes the Fifth, my bet is he gets immunity.

Interesting. I'd not thought of this.

But since BB wants more Lance-centric responses, here goes:

Hey, IP freely. You're free to involve other names. But it was "Lance-centric" pee.

What, besides doping charges, is doping relevant to? My best guess is fraud on the USPS. I don't know the statute of limitations on that, but that's the most logical choice.

I probably should have combined my thoughts with fraud, as they're close cousins. I'd guess that the SOL is the same for either. 1999 samples can be shown to provide backing evidence of 2004's wrongdoing. If the man said "I never touched the stuff" and we can show he's a liar, then we can nail him with other things more easily.

 

[Mambo95]

That's a pretty big assumption. Did LA buy them on his own? What about the Trek product being dumped to generate cash that is yet to be accounted for? Did LA get all that money?

It's ridiculous to assume that LA was hitting Italian street corners looking for a team-wide fix (to draw your point out, I admit).

I believe you really are trying to defend LA, regardless of what you profess.

I'm not trying to defend him (frankly I don't really care what happens). But if Novisky comes just armed with the cases put forward here, then LA's lawyers are just going to laugh in his face, because they are weak and low level arguments. Anyone who's watched few episodes of some courtroom drama and has a bit of common sense could get him acquitted.

Novitsky's an expert at this. None of us are. He'll come up with something better (probably going after Tailwind executives for fraud and getting LA for perjury).

Is Barry Bonds charged with trafficking and misappropriation of public money? Was Marion Jones?

 

[Hugh Januss]

What if Lance swears under oath and the samples show otherwise.
What is "truer" - Lances word or some old potentially tampered samples?

If there is testimony from other team members corroborating Landis' storys then I gotta say I don't like Lance's credibility.

 

[Elagabalus]

...They're only going to go after a foreigner if it's either a) something heavy like murder, b) it's an on going problem and/or on their own door step or c) terrorist related....

Google, Popovic, carabinieri and get back to us ...

 

[Berzin]

The trafficking aspect will have to be corroborated by the people involved-the team underlings, if you will. They will have to fold and give testimony.

Then you have the team riders who ingested said products-the wheres and the whens will be another important aspect.

My personal feeling is nothing major will move in this regard unless pressure is applied to the doctors as well. They were the ones who made the decisions on how the stuff was administered.

Aside from Armstrong, they are the key pieces to the puzzle. We just don't have enough information right now to know how far down this road the Feds have gone.

the question is, many of these cats are foreigners operating on foreign soil. If any of them were caught up in the drug rings that were exposed after the Feds met at Interpol, it may be easy to get them to roll over.

 

[Cobber]

I'm not American either, but I doubt that the Feds would spend money on an investigation into drug moving within Europe (where they have no jurisdiction), and the actual trafficking is probably done by non-US nationals (US nationals just being the users).

European authorities will assist where they can, but I doubt they'll open their own investigation into LA personally.

If a pre-clinical drug (ie. not FDA approved) being developed by a US company from the 1999 era turns up in LA's urine sample from a French race then there is proof of drug trafficking.